Persuasion Buddy Read discussion
Persuasion
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Chapters 1-4
I don't think Lady Elliot would have "lost it," but rather continued on ruling the household quietly. I see her a lot like Charlotte Lucas but kinder and more sympathetic. I think Anne would have been allowed to marry Wentworth with her father's blesing thanks to a little manipulation from Lady Elliot.
But then we wouldn't have this beautiful story...I am torn :D
Samanta wrote: "But then we wouldn't have this beautiful story...I am torn :D"That's why Jane Austen was a brilliant writer. She took so many what if scenerios, put her characters through so much and then to a beautiful ending.
I don't think, though, that Anne's father's dislike of the match was what stopped her from marrying Wentworth, and I think Sir Walter would have secretly been quite glad to cast her off without a dowry. He had to have already been wanting more money in order to continue his (and Elizabeth's) life-style. I doubt that, although Anne certainly felt that she had to respect her father, his opinions would have stopped her from pursuing a course that she felt completely right in. It was Lady Russell's "persuasion" that swayed her.
And, poor Anne, mostly what she felt for her father was shame! I wonder how hard it had been for Lady Elliot to keep him from being a cause for embarrassment to her...
Hi Marquise and Andrea! Just checking in to see when each of you would like to begin our buddy read of Persuasion. I'm very excited! ! Here's my schedule- I can start this week with ch 1-4 and then go on. I got stuck with something and did not finish the bookI was reading and had planned to by today, so I would finish reading it this week while I began reading P. And then move on and catch up with you (if needed) next week. If we wait much later, I'm worried. November is a busy month for me . I have my birthday, an out of town Thanksgiving, friends coming in to visit for football, etc. . but I will make it work whenever you girls choose. I'll check in tomorrow and see when is best for you.
Candace
I had it marked on my calendar to contact you tomorrow Candace.I can read ch 1-4 this weekend.
My modus operandi is to read several books at once as I am involved with Bingo and other challenges and games and stuff on GR.
Oh, it looks like I'll read faster then. I forgot next month was Turkey month and my sis is having major surgery around Vet day.I think I'd better accelerate my reading for tis book. Fortunately, it's one of JAs shorter books.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Oh, it looks like I'll read faster then. I forgot next month was Turkey month and my sis is having major surgery around Vet day.I think I'd better accelerate my reading for tis book. Fortunately,..."
Great, Andrea, that you can start this week. While I'll be slow this week, I'll read faster after that - then we should get our stride on!! So normally I'd wait on Marquise,but since doing this later is a hardship we'll plan on starting now and hope Marquise can jump on board. (Come on Marquise!!)
Enjoy chapters 1-4, look forward to your comments!
That sounds great Mrs!
Candace wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Oh, it looks like I'll read faster then. I forgot next month was Turkey month and my sis is having major surgery around Vet day.I thin..."
Thanks for letting me know, Candace! I won't be able to read the book until Friday or Saturday this week because of a compromise I made for most of the week. It sounds fine that you should start tomorrow if that's best for your schedule, and I'll catch up with you over the weekend.
Does that sound fine for you?
That sounds great Mrs, enjoy 1-4 and please share your comments. Is this your first read or a re-read of Persuasion? That question is for all 4 of us in the buddy read (and if others see and want to join , welcome!)
Jane Austen is is one of my fave authors. I own 2 copies of every book. Some people have a comfort food, but I have a comfort author, Austen. So unbelievably, I have never read P. ! Which may make me lag a little behind everyone also, because I've never encountered the material. But I'm so excited. Many say this is her most mature work.
I tried to buddy read with the big "Persuasion" group, and fell behind--so I didn't get the full benefit of reading with others.
Marquise wrote: "Candace wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Oh, it looks like I'll read faster then. I forgot next month was Turkey month and my sis is having major surgery around ..."That sounds great Marquise. I'll be trying to wrap up my other book. Plus the version I'm reading is the annotated (lots of footnotes); I have a feeling that I'll be lagging behind everyone! But I'd rather get everything out of it and enjoy it. Is anyone else reading the annotated? It's the version where Jane's sister has painted a picture of her on vacation and it is the cover.every other page is full of NOTES!
I can never find a version of JA with footnotes.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I can never find a version of JA with footnotes."I ordered them all from Barnes and Noble except one is not done yet,it is due out summer 2016, I think it's Sense and Sensibility. If I come across any interesting notes I'll share or if there's a passage anyone wants to know more about,just ask!
Thanks for the offer.Since JAs novels were contemporary, there are often things that need explanation to modern readers.
I also use JA as a comfort time I have many books discussing her works from all angles An excellent book explaining culture of her time is "What Matters in Jane Austin" by John Mullan.I have three editions of each novel and have read Persausons many times at one point It was my second favourite ( P & P is always first.) however I cant like Cpt Wentworth I cant like his character...
My library has several copies of the Mullen book, "What Matters.."
I have a couple of non-fiction on Jane Austen but I don't think Mullen is one of them...please ,I'd love to hear what anyone else has to share from their footnotes or other books they have that they find helpful to the story. This morning I checked and the annotated edition (50÷ annotated!!,50 ÷ text) is edited by David Shepard. They are excellent. He explains clothes,carriages,locations,etc. They really are for Janeites!!
When I first started reading I thought, "how different in tone this book is from her others." She is so serious. But as I continued to read, I noticed that she is still pointing out some of the things she has found silly in her previous books, she is just being much more under-handed about it. For example, it's clear Austen is making fun of Anne's father who is so proud of who he is yet he cannot pay his bills on time. She also uses him to make clear that a person of his class has a duty to live as lavishly as he can to make the class look good. As usual Austen is showing how absurd some things are and using sarcasm ,but in a much less obvious way. (Austen makes fun of parents a lot,doesn't she?)I can't believe how long it took Austen to even mention Anne having a thought. I would have guessed Elizabeth was the main character if I had not read my Introduction!
I was surprised at a note in my book. Widows were expected to stay widowed. The note mentions that Lady Russell would have been subject to disapproval upon remarrying because 1. She is abandoning her husband's family for another. 2. The property she took with her from the first marriage would go to the new husband. ! 3. It would be an indulgence of lust that is improper in women. Aghast! But not men.
Just when it seems that I'm finally getting to Anne, Captain Wentworth comes up. And do you know what? As a first-time reader of this Austen-I don't have any opinion of him one way or the other! Usually I've already seen the movie and I know that even if the hero seems prejudiced or snobbish (MP) in the beginning, he turns out being wonderfully romantic. But I haven't seen this movie or heard anything about this hero. I'm guessing this will lead me to feel toward him as Anne does throughout the book. We'll see ...
I'm so glad that y'all are reading the annotated, footnoted versions - and not me, because they drive me absolutely crazy! I don't mind the occasional glossary or index, as long as they're not in the text, but when they are, I find them maddeningly distracting.
Capt. Wentworth is my favorite Austen hero if that tells you anything. Not everyone loves him though. Men were expected to marry to produce an heir. If a man didn't have a male child and his wife died, of course he would be expected to marry again. Sir Walter obviously never found anyone worthy of his high opinion of himself.
The humor in this novel is more subtle in the beginning but once you meet the Musgroves, it's more obvious though less sarcastic. Austen is definitely making fun of the pompous Sir Walter types who value tradition beyond anything but don't have a clue about reality - managing finances, how other people live, etc. This novel has a more serious tone I think because Jane Austen was very ill and dying when she wrote it. She was older and had experienced a lot in her 40 years. She knew what it meant to live on the fringes of society. She knew the vain, pompous people who stayed in Bath very well and her sister knew what it was like to lose your true love.
Finally started the book! :)When I read Chapter 1, I was dreading some slow start with all the genealogy and nobiliary titles, and the next chapter wasn't helping to dissolve that impression. But fortunately from the third chapter onwards, the narrative starts to become clearer and the set-up makes sense. You can see why Austen would start with Sir Walter lovingly reading his peerage book, as it helps explain his outlook in life as well as his attitude towards Anne and Wentworth's relationship.
I must say I'm finding Sir Walter an insufferable snob and, worse, extremely shallow. I perfectly understand the class pride the nobility possesses, more than many, so it'd not be a hit against him in itself. But the man is also vain and judgy on grounds of appearance, which is less understandable than class pride and makes him rather unsympathetic. This shallowness is underscored by how long it takes to convince him to take in a naval officer as a tenant, an idea he finds fault with on grounds like these, despite fully knowing he needs the money to pay the creditors.
“Yes; it is in two points offensive to me; I have two strong grounds of objection to it. First, as being the means of bringing persons of obscure birth into undue distinction, and raising men to honours which their fathers and grandfathers never dreamt of;21 and secondly, as it cuts up a man’s youth and vigour most horribly; a sailor grows old sooner than any other man; I have observed it all my life."
In other words, he judges people on not being titled and good-looking as he is. I don't know if Sir Walter will evolve during the novel, but his opinions haven't endeared him to me exactly.
However, as I was saying, it perfectly explains why he acted like he did with regards to Frederick, his coldness and disapproval if not outright opposition: Wentworth was intelligent and nice, but a "nobody," a simple naval chap with no rank yet, to whom he refuses even to extend the courtesy of calling a gentleman. Anne seems to be a lovely girl, and conscientious, certainly more than her father, but she seems to have been rather fearful and too mindful of her elders' opinion on Frederick, which led to their parting ways. Yet it's obvious that she never forgot him nor lost hope, because she rejected the chance to marry someone else, and even now, seven years later, she still peeks in newspapers for news of him. It's going to be interesting to see how they interact when he arrives.
Liking the story so far! :)
Marquise wrote: "Finally started the book! :)When I read Chapter 1, I was dreading some slow start with all the genealogy and nobiliary titles, and the next chapter wasn't helping to dissolve that impression. But..."
It's been so long since I first read Persuasion that I'm really enjoying your first impressions of the charcters!
Thanks, Karlyne! It's shaping up nicely. :)
Isn't it hard to understand - unless we really think about how the times then and how it was a daughter's duty to marry someone who pleased her parents- how Anne would let this man that you just described Marquise decide the outcome of her life!! He did not say "no" but rather in all his actions and words showed Anne that he was against it and her sense of DUTY was strong she was PERSUADED to do as he wished. I remember how at that age, I believed love was everything, not duty. I'm afraid I would have been one of the girls who did anything for love including going to Gretna Green. I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??
As Pooh Bear wrote above, Austen sister had just lost a love when she wrote this book. Cassandra was engaged to be married,but postponed the wedding until her fiance could save up more money. The fiance went on a trip to the Carrie an with his patron, where he died of yellow fever. The patron said he would never had asked Cassandra ' s fiancé to go on such a dangerous trip if he had known of the engagement. Cassandra may have felt that they were overanxious, too cautious. How much of Cassandra did Jane see in Anne?? (I got the info about the fiancé and the patron in one of my annotations.)
I think it's the latter. I wonder if they would have been truly happy if they married so young? He a charming and intelligent (and still a bit wild) boy, and she an always dutiful daughter of good breading and money. I do not think they were yet fully grown up for their love and I think there would be some rensentment in the later years of their life together. Maybe.
Candace wrote: "I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??"Duty, definitely, given Anne's personality and the fact that she's Sir Walter's heir for lack of a male. Maybe she'd have been less willing to let herself be influenced had there been a son to carry on the paternal title.
However, whilst I do understand her motivations and to an extent her father's, I still hold Sir Walter accountable for the second of his reasons because it's incredibly narrow-minded in any time of history and can be considered a character flaw rather than a different mindset from a different time. Also, I find it curious that at least up to where I am, Anne doesn't seem to have "fought for it" so to speak, in the sense that she doesn't seem to have made any effort to soften her father's disposition or Lady Russell's. She seems to have just dutifully accepted it without resistance. Without outward resistance, that is, because she does show subtle resistance of an emotional nature by keeping firm in her refusal to marry someone else and keep on fishing for news of Frederick.
Marquise wrote: "Candace wrote: "I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??"Duty, definitely, given Anne's personality and the fact that she's Sir Walter's heir for lack ..."
Interestingly, when you say she doesn't seem to have fought for it, I agree. The interesting part...is the book says that Anne was only able to live with the decision knowing that the decision was in the best interest of Wentworth. But she gives no reasons. Isn't there a word for this in psychology?
Candace wrote: "But she gives no reasons. Isn't there a word for this in psychology?"Rationalisation.
But I need to read more to know just how true her assessment really is or if she's just talking herself into living at ease with her decision, fending off whatever feelings of unease she may harbour and dealing with the "what if" effect. Still very early for me to say more, with only four chapters in.
Marquise wrote: "Candace wrote: "I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??"Duty, definitely, given Anne's personality and the fact that she's Sir Walter's heir for lack ..."
Anne was the middle sister, so her elder sister would have probably been more in the way of what there was to inherit- that which wouldn't be going to William Elliot, of course.
Karlyne wrote: "Marquise wrote: "Candace wrote: "I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??"Duty, definitely, given Anne's personality and the fact that she's Sir Walter..."
Yes, I did see the genealogy listing the order of the Elliott children. I meant that Anne acts like she's the heir to her father because she is the "take charge" one amongst Sir Walter's daughters, sort of like in the way that Lizzie gives the impression she is the eldest of the Bennett girls because of her character. Anne, regardless of her place in the order, acts like the eldest here as she shoulders more responsibilities and is involved in nudging her father into paying the creditors and in the getting a tenant to help with their economy.
It seems to me that Sir Walter, being irresponsible with finances and concerned with symbol over substance (like not living beyond his means!), has no doweries for his daughters?If FWentworth is a "nobody" to Sir Walter, why would someone whom who is "somebody" want to marry his daughters?
I bring this up because JA mentioned that both Sir Walter and Elizabeth had hopes of a match for her with the nephew/heir to baronetcy, Mr. Elliot.
If there is no dowry, and Sir Walter is Mis-managing the property, is in debt, I can't blame Mr. Elliot for marriage to a women with a good dowry.
What would he have had to live on if he married Elizabeth?
QNPoohBear wrote: "Capt. Wentworth is my favorite Austen hero if that tells you anything. Not everyone loves him though. Men were expected to marry to produce an heir. If a man didn't have a male child and his wife..."
QNPB, I'd like to know later on why FE is your favorite among JAs heros. I always like this subject--favorites of JAs heroes/heroines.
Is anyone aware if baronets have seats in parliament?I shudder to think of such an irresponsible and foolish man having anything to with government!
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "Is anyone aware if baronets have seats in parliament?"Not in the House of Lords, no. In the House of Commons, they can, so long as they're voted to the position.
I'm very surprised at Mrs. Clay's "comfort" at Kellynch and Sir Walter's ease with her interjection into his affairs.I'm surprised he tolerates Elizabeth's intimacy with Mrs. Clay and her "hanging around" his home.
Sir Walter is not supposed to be a sympathetic character. This is Anne's story and her father is a supreme idiot who values his title over practical concerns. His reasons for persuading Anne against marrying Wentworth were silly and Anne knew that but Lady Russell's concerns were actually very valid. As an adult I can see that now but in my early 20s when I first read the book, I thought she was horrible. You have to think in terms of the time period. Frederick got lucky because England went to war again so there were prize ships to capture. He made his fortune only in the last 7 years. He spent everything he made before that and then peace was declared. What then? He didn't have money or prospects. They didn't have anything like welfare back then. If Frederick was without a job what would they live on? If he was at sea how would Anne take care of a little hut and children without servants? How could she cope if Frederick died? She wasn't brought up to take care of herself. I think she's only come into her own out of necessity and with age comes wisdom. I would probably caution her against marriage at 19 too. Wenworth is my favorite because (view spoiler)
Marquise wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "Marquise wrote: "Candace wrote: "I wonder does this say less of her love for Wentworth or more of her sense of duty??"Duty, definitely, given Anne's personality and the fact that ..."
As an oldest child myself, I like to think that Anne's integrity reflects well on us first-borns (chuckle)! She's definitely the only non-selfish one among the siblings.
Andrea, I think that when Wentworth originally courted Anne, Sir Walter wasn't even aware of the possibility that his spending could make her a less than desirable connection. It's only recently that he's been forced to concede that perhaps Sir Walter of Kellynch isn't quite what he ought to be (although, of course, he's completely blameless!). And, too, it was Lady Russell who really objected to Wentworth and who carried more clout with Anne; she, I think, was more to blame than Sir Walter was, because although he looked down his long, patrician nose at Wentworth, he was so foolish that he probably would have forgotten all about the inferiority of the conection as soon as something else caught his fancy- or Wentworth came up with some prize money!
We were commenting at the same time, QNPoohBear! And I agree with you!
Karlyne,I guess you are right about the weight of Lady Russell's objections as opposed to her father who was indifferent to Anne) as Lady R has been a motherly influence in bar life.
I think Anne knew her father so well that she wasn't really afraid of his opinion, but she really valued Lady Russell's - probably because she was the only intelligent person in Anne's life, after the death of her mother. Poor thing! She had hardly anyone in her life who cared for her at all.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "It seems to me that Sir Walter, being irresponsible with finances and concerned with symbol over substance (like not living beyond his means!), has no doweries for his daughters?If FWentworth is ..."
Each daughter would get 10,000 pounds as a dowry though Anne may not have gotten it if she married against her father's wishes. In ch. 4. "Sir Walter without actually withholding his consent...gave a professed resolution of doing nothing for his daughter." Mary did receive the 10,000. Though I don't think that affected their decision at all. Besides Wentworth's salary for his position,most second,third,etc. sons received a small stipend since they were not the inheritors. Though he would have had to receive his through a will , because if I remember correctly the Wentworths were without parentage. (Strange wording - everybody has parents)
So in the end, yes ,they probably would have had to struggle until he made his way up the ropes and this may be one thing Anne was afraid of holding him back from if he married.
Persuasion Buddy Read
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Patrick O'Brian (other topics)Patrick O'Brian (other topics)
Patrick O'Brian (other topics)
"She has humoured, or softened, or concealed his failings, and promoted his real respectability for seventeen years; and though not the very happiest being in the world herself, had found enough in her duties, her friends, and her children, to attach her to life, and make it no matter of indifference to her when she was called on to quit them. Three girls, the two eldest sixteen and fourteen, was an awful legacy for a mother to bequeath, an awful charge rather, to confide to the authority and guidance of a conceited, silly father."
Do you think that, if Lady Elliot lived longer, she would have finally lost it and start putting her husband in his place? And if she would manage to subdue a "Walter Elliot" in Elizabeth's character if she had more time with her daughter? After all, sixteen is a very critical age.
P.S. If you see that letter "t" is missing somewhere, just ignore it, my keyboard is starting to lose it. :)