The Insecure Writer's Support Group Book Club discussion
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The Forest for The Trees Discussion
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1. I novels, novellas, and short stories, and all very well. I also write in all sorts of genres: romance, romantic-suspense, urban fantasy, non-fiction, and even middle grade. No, I don't call myself a dabbler. I have noticed that I stick to a few of the same themes, after all, there aren't many popular literary themes (they've all been done), but my stories are all different.
2. Based on what I read, I don't think she believes a writer can be wholly well-adjusted.
3. I write from the heart, but it seems the agents/editors I've contacted want what's popular...
4. I've never sneered at another writer for what he/she decided to do for themselves and their books. Have I been sneered at? Not to my face...
Nowadays, we have to promote ourselves if we ever hope to be seen or read by even 5 people. (Although not everyone does because they genuinely hate having to do it. And that’s fine.) The sad thing is, I have seen many writers put down those who seek an agent, who want to publish traditionally, who network, etc. Why is it anyone else’s concern what a writer wishes to do for his/her writing career? (Answer: it’s not anyone else’s concern.) Why is landing a coveted job or networking (whether you’re an up-and-comer or not) looked down upon? Again, that’s also a rhetorical question.
5. Yes, writing is my calling. I started writing seriously when I was twelve, and my mom is a writer, too.
I wanted to be a cop, before I had spine surgery. After that, I had wanted to be a psychiatrist.
1. I write in more than genre but the majority of my writing falls under the umbrella speculative fiction. I also write a little romance and although I have never written a mystery I do like to include it in my stories at times. No not a dabbler anymore. I have not finished my novel yet, but I also write flash fiction and short stories regularly and have published themed anthologies.
2. I think it a bit unfair to lump writers into the majority title of not well-adjust, but that could be said about the whole human race couldn't? So, that shows some prejudice in thinking to me. Are we well adjusted? Some more than others, but again you can say that about the whole human race as life gives us all trials and angst. Some handle them better than others, and the same can be said of writers.
3. I do both. I lean more to writing from the heart, but I also have been looking around at what is popular, after all, some of my favorite writers are writing what is popular, and l love them obviously since I am buying their books. I want my reader to love and buy my stories no matter which category my writing falls into, but I write more from the heart than going with popular. Why can't I have both?
4. I have never sneered at an author. I admire them all especially if they are publishing regularly---so no. We each have our own paths to walk and you have to walk the one that fits you best and fills the need that gets you published. I love seeing authors succeed. I would like to be a hybrid author and publish in both camps.
As far as I know, I have not been sneered at by another writer---the ignorant and non writer, yes, sneered at and ridiculed and judged.
5. I don't know if my calling, but I think it is--BUT I write because I need to write and love doing.
I worked as 911 Emergency Call Taker & Dispatcher for Police/Fire/EMT for 22 years in another life, retired from that in 2011, and then worked another year and a half after moving to Florida in that field. Now I am looking for other work to supplement and help support my daily living and writing--something online preferably that uses my many skills and writing skills.
Before 911 Dispatch, I did a lot of various office jobs such as receptionist, medical billing, skip-tracing, insurance underwriting assistant, city services customer service with utilities, data entry, office management, some retail, telephone marketing/sales, fast food, Avon, Mary Kaye, Christmas Around the World, Melaleuca, Pampered Chef, and daycare.
Juneta wrote: "I worked as 911 Emergency Dispatcher for Police/Fire/EMT for 22 years."I had no idea you were a 911 Emergency Dispatcher. If I even need info about that job for a story, I know who to come to. ;)
Oh, and I also sold Avon. lol
First, I have to say that I found the book didn’t speak to me at all, and after having it from the library for 6 weeks I accepted that I wasn’t going to read beyond chapter 3 and gave up (or maybe it was 4...). I was in fact particularly put off by the attitude illustrated by question #2—some idea that to be a writer requires that one be a tormented personality or something. In the end, I felt that she would join far too many critics in dismissing the genre fiction I write as “insignificant” or some such. Despite that, I can respond to some of the questions.
1. Since she’s talking about genres in the big sense, I’ll say that I think I have a good grip on long and short fiction, and a short at learning creative non-fiction. No intention of writing poetry or plays.
2. See above. I think she believes that a “normal” reasonably well-adjusted person can’t be a writer because we are boring. Well, tough.
3. I write what I like, but I do pay attention to the standards and mores of the genre. And since I have more ideas than I can write, for my novels I do tend to put the effort into the ones that fall under genres that sell.
4. Nope and nope. I might sneer at celebrities who get books published because they are celebrities, not because the books are good.
5. I write because I have stories in me. Happily, I don’t need to make a living at it.
I admit I'm behind and trying to catch up before the deadline. But I was furious at point #1. That's such a load of BS and unfair to lump every writer into the same box. How many musicians out there play more than one instrument, as well as write and produce? I guess Prince was a hack. Brian May was an astrophysicist whose scientific articles were published; too bad he was such a worthless musician. Ridiculous. Sounds like words from a frustrated artist herself.So A) I do write in multiple genres and styles. I'm only just starting to query a novel so I can't speak on its success in that vs. short stories, but I've had more than one genre published. What an insulting term, "dabbler." No one who works hard to achieve their dream is a dabbler. At what point should I quit if I'm not successful per her definition?
B) I do notice some repeating themes in my work. Death, aging, loss, darkness. Ha! Chipper stuff. Also nature, shadow and light, space—both the kind surrounding us and the black that holds the stars. Humor. Levity makes the dark stuff bearable.
Jennifer wrote: "I admit I'm behind and trying to catch up before the deadline. But I was furious at point #1. That's such a load of BS and unfair to lump every writer into the same box. How many musicians out ther..."Jennifer, I honestly didn’t think she liked writers much! Certainly I felt she wasn’t talking to me, with her very deterministic view of what writers are like and what they do.
Rebecca wrote: Jennifer, I honestly didn’t think she liked writers much! Certainly I felt she wasn’t talking to me, with her very deterministic view of what writers are like and what they do.I had to check the copyright to see when it was written. 2000; kinda shocking.
I beg 'teacher's' forgiveness as I'm still reading the book after a bad month for anything constructive. But Betsy Lerner’s The Forest for the Trees has helped me re-focus my writing so one day I'll write a review explaining that.
Rebecca wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I admit I'm behind and trying to catch up before the deadline. But I was furious at point #1. That's such a load of BS and unfair to lump every writer into the same box. How many m..."I forgot to read it then started reading last minute, but I admit I did not finish the book either and won't. The attitude overall was not helpful or enjoyable reading but then I did not finish so...
Jennifer wrote: "Rebecca wrote: Jennifer, I honestly didn’t think she liked writers much! Certainly I felt she wasn’t talking to me, with her very deterministic view of what writers are like and what they do.I ha..."
Okay, I did not think to check the copyright but assumed it was 20 or more years ago which is why I referred to old school thinking above... It still is old school thinking IMO LOL,
Wow, now I know that I am flabbergasted. Well I guess 2000 does make almost 20 years ago lol, but I was thinking 80's or 90's or older.
Rebecca wrote: "First, I have to say that I found the book didn’t speak to me at all, and after having it from the library for 6 weeks I accepted that I wasn’t going to read beyond chapter 3 and gave up (or maybe ..."I understand your feelings. I felt the same way and was put off by most of the book. It's recommended so often to writers, though. Interesting, huh?
Jennifer wrote: "I admit I'm behind and trying to catch up before the deadline. But I was furious at point #1. That's such a load of BS and unfair to lump every writer into the same box. How many musicians out ther..."I was also furious when I read that in the book. That was why I formed that question. lol
Roland wrote: "I beg 'teacher's' forgiveness as I'm still reading the book after a bad month for anything constructive. But Betsy Lerner’s The Forest for the Trees has helped me re-focus my writing so one day I'l..."I'm glad you've gotten something positive out of it!!
Juneta wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Rebecca wrote: Jennifer, I honestly didn’t think she liked writers much! Certainly I felt she wasn’t talking to me, with her very deterministic view of what writers are like and wh..."What flabbergasts me even more is how often its on lists of books for writers to read. That's how I came across it and how it got on our reading list. Once I read it, I figured it could lead to some interesting discussions.
Thanks Chrys for this discussion.Sorry that I haven’t read the book ... I would have to buy it, as I live in France and don’t have easy access to an English public library that would carry non fiction about writing.
Although, after reading the previous comments, I get the gist and will attempt to reply to the discussion questions.
1. Genre. Mostly poetry and short fiction, but also reflections and essays with a novel in progress. Definitely not a dabbler, unfortunately sometimes too much of a perfectionist to promote my writing.
2. The tortured soul ? Who isn’t ? We writers just find the need to express our thoughts, feelings, opinions and emotions more than others, that’s all.
3. I can only write from the heart, sincerely and hope that those who receive my writing will appreciate and enjoy it. Money is not important, recognition from my peers, yes. Non writers don’t understand that writing is a need, not an office job. You are a writer whatever you manage to publish or not. To hell with their opinion.
I will not write something that may be popular but that I don’t enjoy writing just to fall back into a rat race long left behind me.
4. Each writer is different. I enjoy many eclectic genres, styles, themes etc... some popular, some more confidential. I do not read authors just because they are bestsellers, but because I derive pleasure from their books. If other writers criticize what I write or non writers denigrate my choice of profession or my ‘success’ or lack of in terms of financial gain and popularity, I honestly don’t care, it won’t make me change how I write and promote my work ... But it still hurts ... I would never criticize another writers’ work or choices, if I don’t like them, I don’t emulate them.
5. Writing is definitely a calling that I tried to ignore and repress for 35 years, to earn my keep and conform to family, jobs, bosses ... No More ... I never stopped writing, so the inspiration and work have always kept flowing and fattening my notebooks, binders, drawers, photos albums, walls. Will need ten lifetimes to publish all the books now recorded, documented but still to be organized, not counting the new stories written everyday ! 😂🤣😅😌 🎈
Susan wrote: "Thanks Chrys for this discussion.Sorry that I haven’t read the book ... I would have to buy it, as I live in France and don’t have easy access to an English public library that would carry non fic..."
I understand it could be hard for many members to obtain the books we read, but I appreciate that you participated in the discussion! We try to come up with questions that can be answered even if someone couldn't read the book. :)
Hi Chrys,I haven't read the book but reading the comment from Juneta yesterday had bit into my curious nature. So I purchased the kindle version last night and will see what happens.
This discussion will probably close as we move on to a new book, but I am still going to read it.
I can only say that writing is a calling for me. It was a calling that I didn't take seriously after a couple of disappointments and extreme criticism from my external surroundings, but it was always something that I did no matter what. I couldn't stop writing, couldn't stop learning about the craft and the techniques that help a writer develop his or her story. Through learning and being around other writers, the muscles that I needed grew stronger so that I could move out into the open and expose my writing to others.
Shalom aleichem
Chrys wrote: "What flabbergasts me even more is how often its on lists of books for writers to read. That's how I came across it and how it got on our reading list. Once I read it, I figured it could lead to some interesting discussions."Juneta wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "Rebecca wrote: Jennifer, I honestly didn’t think she liked writers much! Certainly I felt she wasn’t talking to me, with her very deterministic view of what writers ..."I know. I am not sure I would recommend this book because of its tone and attitude which I don't think are helpful at all. BUT I did not finish or make it half-way so I could have missed it getting better. I just couldn't keep reading.
Beware! The Snark is lurking here!1. Betsy Lerner states that “There are probably only a few things you can write about, and only one genre, or maybe two, in which you might excel.” By that, she means by switching “from novels to plays” or poetry to short stories or fiction to poetry, etc.
QUESTIONS:
A: Do you write in multiple categories (short story, novel, poetry, essays, etc.) a lot and well enough to not be called “a dabbler”? (Betsy Lerner’s term.)
I write in whatever category I feel like writing in. I don't consider myself a "dabbler," because I write pretty much every day and it all has meaning to me. Whatever anyone else considers me is their business, and I don't really care about that.
B: Betsy Lerner also states that the same is true of the themes you write about. Have you noticed that you write about the same themes over and over or do the themes of your work run the gambit?
It's rather the same theme wearing different masks, and I don't care what anyone else thinks of that.
2. Lerner describes the different types of writers, all coming off in a bad light. Lerner never describes a writer as anything remotely well-adjusted.
QUESTION: Does Lerner believe a good writer cannot be wholly well-adjusted?
I honestly can't say that I've read very far into the book. Helping my son buy a house (which I also live in) and acting as his driver and helping as I can, given my physical limitations, to clear out his townhome, has taken up most of the summer. This book is not exactly a fast read. From what I've seen, she seems to think that the majority of writers are in need of therapy.
3. Lerner says, "Instead of honoring the subjects and forms that invade writer's dreams and diaries, they concoct some idea about what's selling or what agents and editors are looking for as they try to fit their odd-shaped pegs into someone else's hole." She goes on to say editor's like to be surprised and taken out of the world they expect.
QUESTION: Do you do the research and write what is popular, or write from the heart, or a bit of both?
To partially quote my dear late friend Rachel, I write what the monkey hell I want to write, and what's popular can take a long walk off a short pier for all I care. Much of the time, I despise popular fiction.
4. From “The Self-Promoter” chapter: A young writer was called a nightmare and total networker by others in the publishing industry. “Her sin, I later discovered, had been in landing a much-coveted job at a very young age with a highly regarded publication.”
Also, from the same chapter: “Oh, you know, he’s a total self-promoter,” we sneer when an up-and-coming writer aligns himself with a powerful agent or editor.
QUESTION: Have you ever sneered at writers who promote themselves and their books, who network, who strive for/land coveted jobs, who seek agents? Have you ever been sneered at for those things?
I've been sneered at for a lot of things. As for what other people do, we each do what we've got to do. At this point in my life, it's preferable for me to freelance, and I've decided that I don't want an agent. That's what works for my odious and ill-advised personality type. It may not work for somebody else.
5. (Mentioned in the book.) Lorrie Moore began her short story “How to Become a Writer” with: “First, try to be something, anything else.”
QUESTIONS:
A: Is writing your calling? (You don’t want to do anything else and feel you have no other choice but to write…but maybe you have a job to sustain yourself financially?)
It's some sort of obsession which started eating my brain back when I was a precocious and somewhat twisted child reading Edgar Allan Poe at six years old, and it has never stopped. Thanks, Ed.
I still wrote even when I was killing myself working twelve-hour days and sixty-hour weeks. These hours nearly killed me, literally. I had a small stroke and ended up being fired from my job.
B: Have you worked had another career/career path? If so, what?
I've done a lot of other things, none of which I really wanted to do. I've done a fair bit of work in the food industry as a bartender and waitress. I kind of liked bartending. It was like playing with a chemistry set. Living in Colorado, however, I discovered that people pretty much want two kinds of drinks: beer and margaritas.
I worked in the long-term care end of things for a cumulative of about 25 years, as an aide in nursing homes and, eventually, a retirement community, and then as a home health nurse. It is back-breaking and often soul-destroying work and I really was not well suited to it. It was what my mother wanted me to do. She retired as a registered nurse in 2004 after my father (RIP) had a major hemorrhagic stroke. This type of work almost killed me.
Now I primarily make my living, such as it is, writing book reviews. I would like to eventually shift more towards proofreading and editing.
I love to write, but I very much doubt my writing will ever sell. My brain is literally very different from most people's. I have ADD and bipolar disorder, and my mind tends to be all over the place. In my case, except for a low dose of lithium, the cure (medications) is worse than the "problem" (a brain that works differently). My stories are weird (like me) and tend to have a myriad of sub-plots. I've had plenty of people tell me to write like they do, but writing loses its joy when I do. So, I will keep writing what I want to write, and the nay-sayers can suck a rotten lemon.
Pat wrote: "Hi Chrys,I haven't read the book but reading the comment from Juneta yesterday had bit into my curious nature. So I purchased the kindle version last night and will see what happens.
This discu..."
I'm glad you never stopped writing. <3
Cara wrote: "I write what the monkey hell I want to write"Great quote! And well said!
2. Lerner describes the different types of writers, all coming off in a bad light. Lerner never describes a writer as anything remotely well-adjusted.QUESTION: Does Lerner believe a good writer cannot be wholly well-adjusted?
Possibly, but she does take quite a few digs at editors and other industry professionals too.
3. Lerner says, "Instead of honoring the subjects and forms that invade writer's dreams and diaries, they concoct some idea about what's selling or what agents and editors are looking for as they try to fit their odd-shaped pegs into someone else's hole." She goes on to say editor's like to be surprised and taken out of the world they expect.
QUESTION: Do you do the research and write what is popular, or write from the heart, or a bit of both?
Ha! Nope, I definitely don't write crowd-pleasers. I heard that by the time you finishing writing the latest trendy thing and it makes it to shelves (if!), that trend is already gone or on its way out. Plus, it would suggest I can competently write what's popular. What if I tried, and failed? Then what do I do with this thing I have no connection with?
4. From “The Self-Promoter” chapter: A young writer was called a nightmare and total networker by others in the publishing industry. “Her sin, I later discovered, had been in landing a much-coveted job at a very young age with a highly regarded publication.”
Also, from the same chapter: “Oh, you know, he’s a total self-promoter,” we sneer when an up-and-coming writer aligns himself with a powerful agent or editor.
QUESTION: Have you ever sneered at writers who promote themselves and their books, who network, who strive for/land coveted jobs, who seek agents? Have you ever been sneered at for those things?
No, at least not to my face. And I came to the party late, so it seems like that's the app they're passing around: brand first, product second. It depresses the hell out of me. More proof I was born too late. I was meant to be a moody recluse, dammit!
5. (Mentioned in the book.) Lorrie Moore began her short story “How to Become a Writer” with: “First, try to be something, anything else.”
QUESTIONS:
A: Is writing your calling? (You don’t want to do anything else and feel you have no other choice but to write…but maybe you have a job to sustain yourself financially?)
B: Have you worked had another career/career path? If so, what?
A: I loved that quote. Writing is the only "job" I've wanted more than anything. I've tried other things in fields that still fascinate and interest me, but they didn't work out. But I have no interest in writing as a career. Once it becomes work, it's just another day at the office full of obligations. If the fates decide to propel me to stardom, okay...I have a feather boa in my storage closet and I look great in sunglasses. But I'm not striving for that level of success. I want a respectable number of sales other than my writing group buddies and the four my husband bought to foist on relatives.
B: I've had three career changes in my 24 years in the workforce. I got my LPN at 18, put it in a frame and moved on to various types of medical secretary; got tired of the corporate bullshit and, much like Homer Simpson decided to go to clown college, enrolled in cooking school to learn baking & pastry; worked a few years in both front- and back-of-the-house and eventually got frustrated that I never #%*^ baked a damn thing worth mentioning; then went back to the secretary thing—at a tech university. Which, honestly, was the plan from the start: get a simple, low-responsibility job so I had a ton of time to write. Voila. A ridiculous, convoluted path to the same place I started but finally admitted was my rightful place.
Chrys wrote: "Cara wrote: "I write what the monkey hell I want to write"Great quote! And well said!"
BWAHAHAHAHA
LOVE THIS
Did anyone else feel like this was less "advice to writers" than "essays from the trenches"?
Jennifer wrote: "Did anyone else feel like this was less "advice to writers" than "essays from the trenches"?"Yup, agree and a bunch of sour lemons.
This discussion is more entertaining than the book. I've started it so will attempt to finish it - well, not at the expense of better entertainment. Maybe for Goodreads Challenge figures. ???
On page 36: "You develop an extra sense that partly excludes you from experience. ... {Writers don't really experience things} anything like 100 percent. They're always holding back and wondering what the significance is, or wondering how they'd do it on the page." - Martin Amis"I never quite know when I'm not writing. Sometimes my wife comes up to me at a party and says, 'Dammit, Thurbur, stop writing.' She usually catches me in the middle of a paragraph." - James Thurbur
I've never been caught, but wow, they got my number. How the hell else am I supposed to get through a party? By...interacting...with PEOPLE? Surely you jest.
Judith Guest: "I stumbled upon the secret path...uncovered rules...unfortunately, all of this was proving to be of very little use to me in the writing of the next novel. How could I have forgotten everything so quickly?"ME. I have no idea how I went from that first turning point scene to...whatever I wrote next, until I got to "the end". How does anyone book?
Jennifer wrote: "On page 36: "You develop an extra sense that partly excludes you from experience. ... {Writers don't really experience things} anything like 100 percent. They're always holding back and wondering w..."There is some truth in that, though I wouldn’t agree with Amis that I don’t experience things 100%. I think of the bit where I mentally turn everything into a scene in a book is an addition, not a subtraction, from the experience.
And I will admit that when I’m crawling down something way too close to a cliff on what I *thought* was a trail, my mind is 100% on what I’m doing, and the writing thing takes a break :D
Roland wrote: "This discussion is more entertaining than the book."I agree with you there!
I think our next non-fiction book (for December/January) will be a lot better. Many people LOVE it.
But this discussion is good, and this experience just proves that not all books will be our cup of tea. I try to vet the non-fiction craft books beforehand, and this one has been recommended so often...
Jennifer wrote: "{Writers don't really experience things} anything like 100 percent"We don't really experience things 100%? What I go through, I experience fully in that moment. Hmm...
Chrys wrote: "I was also furious when I read that in the book. That was why I formed that question. lol"Ha! Glad you did :)
Susan wrote: "3. I can only write from the heart, sincerely and hope that those who receive my writing will appreciate and enjoy it. Money is not important, recognition from my peers, yes. Non writers don’t understand that writing is a need, not an office job. You are a writer whatever you manage to publish or not. To hell with their opinion.I will not write something that may be popular but that I don’t enjoy writing just to fall back into a rat race long left behind me."
*applauds*
Chrys wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "{Writers don't really experience things} anything like 100 percent"We don't really experience things 100%? What I go through, I experience fully in that moment. Hmm..."
I'm guessing she sees the tendency to think about how things we experience might look in a story means we aren't fully experiencing them. I think it's just another way of fully experiencing them.
Our book discussions consist of 5 questions. You can answer one question or all five. It's up to you.
And feel free to reply to anyone's comments to create a conversation.
Let's have some fun!
1. Betsy Lerner states that “There are probably only a few things you can write about, and only one genre, or maybe two, in which you might excel.” By that she means by switching “from novels to plays” or poetry to short stories or fiction to poetry, etc.
QUESTIONS:
A: Do you write in multiple categories (short story, novel, poetry, essays, etc.) a lot and well enough to not be called “a dabbler”? (Betsy Lerner’s term.)
B: Betsy Lerner also states that the same is true of the themes you write about. Have you noticed that you write about the same themes over and over or do the themes of your work run the gambit?
2. Lerner describes the different types of writers, all coming off in a bad light. Lerner never describes a writer as anything remotely well-adjusted.
QUESTION: Does Lerner believe a good writer cannot be wholly well-adjusted?
3. Lerner says, "Instead of honoring the subjects and forms that invade writer's dreams and diaries, they concoct some idea about what's selling or what agents and editors are looking for as they try to fit their odd-shaped pegs into someone else's hole." She goes on to say editor's like to be surprised and taken out of the world they expect.
QUESTION: Do you do the research and write what is popular, or write from the heart, or a bit of both?
4. From “The Self-Promoter” chapter: A young writer was called a nightmare and total networker by others in the publishing industry. “Her sin, I later discovered, had been in landing a much-coveted job at a very young age with a highly regarded publication.”
Also, from the same chapter: “Oh, you know, he’s a total self-promoter,” we sneer when an up-and-coming writer aligns himself with a powerful agent or editor.
QUESTION: Have you ever sneered at writers who promote themselves and their books, who network, who strive for/land coveted jobs, who seek agents? Have you ever been sneered at for those things?
5. (Mentioned in the book.) Lorrie Moore began her short story “How to Become a Writer” with: “First, try to be something, anything else.”
QUESTIONS:
A: Is writing your calling? (You don’t want to do anything else and feel you have no other choice but to write…but maybe you have a job to sustain yourself financially?)
B: Have you worked had another career/career path? If so, what?