Sept '09 Sabriel * System of Magic

[Jeanne]

What did you think of the system of magic in Sabriel?

[Jon]

I have a fond spot for music and magic. Bells especially beckon to my heart. Combining the clear tones and reverberations with magic to influence the dead (and at times the living) sparked my interest immediately. And wearing a bandoleer of bells would just be so cool!

[Elena]

I was fascinated by the 9 doors to death and how she used magic to go through each. I wish she would had gone farther into them, I think she passed only up through the 4th.

[Elise]

I really liked it. It was unique and interesting. I found myself looking back often to where the different bells were described to commit to memory what each of them meant as a power against the dead.

[Becky]

I thought that the system of magic was different and intriguing.

How does the Charter work? who made it? Is it purified Free Magic, or is Free Magic a bastardization of Charter Magic? Or have both just always existed?

I liked that there were different layers of power:

Charter Magic
Free Magic
Science

They can all exist together, but science is trumped by all magic, and Charter Magic CAN trump Free Magic if wielded properly and with enough power. I think it's very interesting, also, that the Charter seems almost religion-esque, in that it is used as a baptism, it is sworn upon, etc. At least it struck me that way.

The WAY spells are cast is interesting too. Visualization and vocalization/sound seem to be the key. I bet at one time, Necromancers used only their voice to control the Dead, but then decided to make the bells as tools.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

One of my favorite thing about this series is the different types of magic, and their descriptions and uses. I quite like the idea of raw, wild magic versus a more ordered and systematic magic - and how the Abhorsen uses both in conjunction. I also really liked the difference between Ancelstierre and the Old Kingdom - science/tech vs magic/religion.

I think the bells are cool, but also tried to imagine myself doing some of the things they have to do - I imagine them rather more unwieldy than they seemed in the book, but, then, maybe I'm just projecting my lack of dexterity. *grins*

For those interested, we learn a lot more about the history in the next two books. You learn how the Charter was created, and by whom, and why. You also see further into Death.

[Libby]

@ Blackrose - thanks for the hint about the rest of the series. There are many unanswered questions I'd like to learn more about. It's good to know the next books delve into these topic.

[JG (Introverted Reader)]

Elise wrote: "I found myself looking back often to where the different bells were described to commit to memory what each of them meant as a power against the dead."

I kept wishing there was something at the beginning or the end that would tell me what each bell did. I don't remember it being particularly important to my understanding of the story to remember that, but I just felt better knowing which one did what as she pulled them out.

Becky wrote: "the Charter seems almost religion-esque, in that it is used as a baptism, it is sworn upon, etc. At least it struck me that way."

I felt the same way, Becky. Really, I like what Becky and blackrose have to say. I'm glad to know that everything is explained a little further in the sequels. Maybe I will bump them a little further up the tbr. :-)

[Mary-Ann]

I found it interest, the gates, the bells the charter. I know It's probably silly but the symbols at the top of each chapter in the edition I had made me think "Are these charter symbols, what do they mean" the part of me that loved mystical languages and codes was spoken to. The power of words and symbols.

The bells are sweet, the chimes the charms, albiet a lot smaller, the use of the bells made me think of handbells especially when she had to ring two in perfect unison. I never played handbells but they're pretty. And the magic that is in music, (or what feels like magic) made it seem adept.

The curiosity I find is that the children were able to speak about things, but that the knowledge was basically forbidden from being spoken about by any other than the innocent. While this kept up the mystery , it would drive me just as crazy as it seemed to drive Sabriel.

[Mary-Ann]

So I guess here's my question, what do you think about the role of Water in the Magic? The way that it would deter the undead from making a journey. And also the way it shelters/removes the charter binding against speaking?

[Libby]

I think the use of the natural elements in the system of magic balanced well against the unatural existence of those who refused to stay dead.

For example, the system of magic seemed to utilize the elements of sound / harmonics (the bells), the wind (paperwing) and water to name a few examples. Also, guns and tech weapons did minimal damage against the undead. Instead swords and the like were required. \

Maybe I'm grasping at straws but these were a few thoughts that occurred to me while reading Mary-Ann's comments.

Finally, it is interesting that the dead can't cross running water but that a river connects the gates, hmm

[Mary-Ann]

That part of the dead not being able to cross a river by themselves makes me think a lot of the Greek Mythology regarding Hades and the River Styx. I don't remember the details,I just remember the part about people believing that by putting a coin (i forget where on the body) that it would pay passage across the river, and without it the spirits of the dead wouldn't be able to be admitted and would be stuck in the world of the living to haunt. But its not mentioned so we are left to spectulate at the normal progression of death, as most of the 'dead' we see are those that are rebelling against death and trying to stay unnaturally alive we aren't given a picture of the 'natural' process of death. If that makes sense.

[Becky]

The coins go on the eyes, generally.

I know that it was referred to as a "river" but I didn't actually feel like it was one. Rather, I felt like water WAS death, and that the 9th gate was the drain, drawing all water to it and beyond.

Neither Lirael, or Sabriel or anyone that I can recall was ever NOT in water in death, no matter where they were. Does that make sense?

[Mary-Ann]

Thanks Becky (I thought it was the eyes but I wasn't secure in asserting that... its been so many years since I heard/read about that...) . I haven't read Lirael but I'm sure you're right. That that water was a metaphor in that case.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

There is a lot of old lore about unnatural things not being able to cross running water. I know that it was applied to vampires at one time. I believe it was also associated with the fae in some stories. Water has long been held to be something which dispells magic or associated things.

As to the water being symbolic, I agree, but I think there were parts in Lirael where they were not in the water but on a magically created bridge or something to that effect. I do think it's interesting about the different rivers, but I guess I would just assume there are different rules and properties in Life and Death.

[Becky]

You're right blackrose, I forgot about the bridge. But still, there are no land areas in Death, just the water, if I remember correctly. So, my thinking is that there is more like a vast plain of water flowing towards the center/end (being the 9th gate) rather than an actual river.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Yes, I think it is just a vast area of water, as you say. I don't want to get into spoilers from Lirael, and I can't remember which is which from Sabriel, but there are areas which are described as other than river, right?

[Becky]

I think there's a pool, and waterfalls, but every time the current is mentioned, it's referred to as being a river. *shrug*

[Mallory]

I think in Greek mythology, the coin goes in the deceased mouth, under their tongue.

The system of magic in this book did not come naturally to me. In most of what I read, royalty or organized religion/faiths is where the corruption lies. This book was counterintuitive for me. I kept wanting to know more about "free magic" and part of me was always hoping it would prevail.

As for Death, I see a New York City sewer system - like in the old Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movies :)
Instead of rats there's the Dead scurrying around.

[Mary-Ann]

Mallory - Now that's some imagery ;)

There are two more books in the series so I presume we will learn a lot more in those if we read them. Lirael is longer at least in length so there should be more room for getting into that stuff?

I am curious to find out if there is any more "New World" vs "Old World" interactions.

****MiniSpoiler****

After Sabriels crossing into the Old world (should this be in the journey section... its kinda both). I found myself wondering if I was faced with the visible, tangible evidence of magic, would I believe it or would I stick behind my 'belief' that it was fiction and write it off the way many characters do in Stories. Seeing as my background is in Science , I am sure I'd be tempted to look for another explanation. Or write it off as as a crazy dream. I have a LOT of crazy dreams.

[Mir]

You're correct, Mallory -- Greeks put the coin to pay for passage across the Styx under the tongue. Putting a coin on each eye is some thing some cultures do to protect the body from spirits (probably because the eyes can sometimes open if there is nothing to keep them shut, which you can see would be scary!).

[Alexander]

Hi, I was wondering, does anyone know where I can find a list of the charter spells and their meanings? I know that at the start of each chapter and on the covers of certain versions of the book there are hundreds of little charter symbols, but I dont know the meanings? Can anyone help?