Classics and the Western Canon discussion
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Planning for our first 2015 read
Patrice, are we sure the connections were in the Confessions and not some other of his works?
Ok. I couldn't remember from the comments made.
Genni wrote: "Patrice, are we sure the connections were in the Confessions and not some other of his works?"Patrice wrote: "I'm pretty sure that's what I read. They're both autobiographical, both about self-mastery, and metamorphosis, conversion."
The most obvious connections are to the Confessions, but there are references in some of Augustine's other works, as well. The title, The Golden Ass in fact comes from City of God.
David wrote: "The poll doesn't appear to have a closing date set. Is that intentional? or have I missed it?"Nov. 4 is the closing date. (It's under "comments and details".)
David wrote: "The poll doesn't appear to have a closing date set. Is that intentional? or have I missed it?"David -- click "Comments and details" below the poll.--
Sorry, repetition of Thomas above. I could delete -- only additional information here, where to look for the "comments and details." Normally appears with a poll.
Ah, yes. Thanks, Thomas and Lily. Didn't think to look there.
Teaching and trial work require the same skill set--the ability to control the room, infinite preparation, LISTENING, and a fair degree of--dare I say it--honesty.
David wrote: "The poll doesn't appear to have a closing date set. Is that intentional? or have I missed it?"If you go to the poll and click on the "comments and details" link it will tell you that it ends on November 4. But what Goodreads means by that is 12:01 am on November 4, so realistically it ends at midnight on November 3rd. Why GR does this I don't know, but that's how they do it.
I think I shall pass up on the voting this time as I am not all that sure I will be able to keep up with the discussion.
I am thrilled to see Ulysses on the list! I have been hoping for, well, years that this group will decide to read it so I can finally dig into it myself--something I know I will enjoy and appreciate so much more with all of you than on my own. I realize I often disappear for months at a time, but I'll be back for this one if it's chosen!
The poll has closed. The votes are as follows, using the modified weighting of 0-100 posts (1 vote), 100-200 (2 votes), and 200+ (3 votes):Ulysses -- raw vote 11, weighted vote 20
Confessions -- raw vote 5, weighted vote 7
Pilgrims Progress -- raw vote 4, weighted vote 11
Virgil -- raw vote 4, weighted vote 6
Ulysses is far enough ahead in both raw votes and weighted votes that it seems that it should be declared the outright winner without needing a run-off, unless there is strong objection. But we should definitely put Pilgrim's Progress in the next poll. (Indeed, it may be time to set a poll of the runner-ups of the past seven or eight polls. But that's for later.)
So, unless a clamorous outcry persuades the moderators to call for a run-off poll between Ulysses and Pilgrim's Progress, we'll be starting Ulysses under Thomas's guidance on January 7, 2015.
Any suggestions on the best editions of Ulysses?
I asked Thomas that question privately, but I'll let him answer it here instead of trying to pass on his response.
The differences between editions are fairly minor. There are serious objections to Gabler's 1986 edition, but Random House, Everyman, and Penguin have dropped that edition in favor of the 1960 edition. The "uncorrected" 1922 edition is now in circulation because copyright has expired in the US, but I think almost everyone will have the 1960 edition. (Even the 1922 edition is okay though. Some argue that it is closer to the original than the "corrected" text, for the reasons outlined below.) An edition that includes the episode titles (which Joyce did not provide) can be helpful for reference, but I'm still reading my battered old 1946 Random House edition that I found at a garage sale in 1985 for a quarter, and it hasn't done me any harm.
This isn't really important to know, but for those who have an interest in the complicated history of the book... The first publication contained around 2000 errors, and scholars have been trying to fix them ever since. Unfortunately, this attempt has often resulted in more confusion than correction because scholars cannot agree on the which is the "original" manuscript, where such a manuscript exists.
The reason for this is almost typically Joycean. Some typists refused to type the parts of the manuscript that they found objectionable, so Joyce's friends "helped". The final result was riddled with misspellings, corrected misspellings of words that Joyce intended to be misspelled, and punctuation changed or inserted where none was intended. Then the MS was sent off to be typeset by French printers who did not know English. When Joyce got the proofs he not only corrected it, he added something like 100,000 words, complicating the text even further with his hard to read scrawl. And apparently parts of the original longhand manuscript are now lost, so some scholars have attempted to recreate the original from later typed manuscripts, incurring further criticism and providing yet more grist for the Joycean mill.
The bottom line is that whatever edition you have is going to be fine, unless you're a Joyce scholar. And if you are, let me know because I have some questions... :-)
Thomas wrote: " unless you're a Joyce scholar. And if you are, let me know because I have some questions... :-) "I'm not a Joyce scholar, but I'm curious to know what your questions are. Your remarks on editions were nicely comprehensive.
Thomas wrote: "The differences between editions are fairly minor. There are serious objections to Gabler's 1986 edition, but Random House, Everyman, and Penguin have dropped that edition in favor of the 1960 edit..."Now I'm really curious to read this book as Ulysses has a reputation of being difficult and I'm curious of how much of that difficulty arises from the publication issues you mentioned, Thomas.
Deciding between a Wordsworth and a Vintage edition..but can't tell if they are both 1960 edition (as looking online and can't see that info where I am looking)…but likely either are fine?
Thomas wrote: "When Joyce got the proofs he not only corrected it, he added something like 100,000 words, complicating the text even further with his hard to read scrawl."That's the length of another whole book!
Thanks for the background, Thomas.
Sue wrote: "Deciding between a Wordsworth and a Vintage edition..but can't tell if they are both 1960 edition (as looking online and can't see that info where I am looking)…but likely either are fine?"Vintage (Random House) still publishes both the Gabler edition and the 1961 corrected edition, presumably to keep academics on both sides of the fence happy. Either one is fine for our purposes, but if you have a choice, I'd choose the 1961.
I'm not sure about the Wordsworth edition. A lot of bargain reprints of the 1922 edition came out in 2012 when the U.S. copyright expired, and they're fine too if they're produced well.
Tiffany wrote: "Now I'm really curious to read this book as Ulysses has a reputation of being difficult and I'm curious of how much of that difficulty arises from the publication issues you mentioned, Thomas. "The publication issues are mostly a matter for scholars to debate -- spelling variations, punctuation differences, really minor things. We are going to have much bigger fish to fry.
The Oxford World's Classics edition reproduces the original 1922 printing, which is what I will be using. I haven't seen enough of the other options available, but sounds like there's not much difference.
Does anyone have a recommendation for a Kindle edition? The free public domain edition is on hold as apparently a number of formatting mistakes have been reported. There are numerous ones for sale and no way for a novice like me to decide how to choose from among them.
Kathy wrote: "Does anyone have a recommendation for a Kindle edition? The free public domain edition is on hold as apparently a number of formatting mistakes have been reported. There are numerous ones for sale ..."I would be cautious about this. At certain points the book is dependent on typographical presentation and I wonder if a Kindle would get this right. It's not just a matter of fonts and so forth, but of the page also.
Kathy wrote: "Does anyone have a recommendation for a Kindle edition? The free public domain edition is on hold as apparently a number of formatting mistakes have been reported. There are numerous ones for sale ..."The reviews on Amazon are probably the best guide. Beware of editions that have been badly scanned, which seems to be a perennial problem with Kindle and classics -- I guess they just scan 'em in and forget 'em. One of the kindle editions of Ulysses has the very first word spelled wrong. Joyce would not be happy with "Sately plump..."
I would also advise against editions that include annotations in the text of the book. I don't know how anyone could read a book, any book, like that. With Ulysses it would make following the flow of the prose almost impossible. There is a Shmoop edition with commentary and notes which is probably okay because it doesn't intrude on the text.
Let us know if you find a good one!
While avoiding the misspelt version, I found a discounted kindle version that seems to be fairly faithful to the formatting that is present in print editions of the book.http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K...
I also downloaded the free kindle version directly from project gutenberg and I didn't see notice any significant differences between that version and the print versions.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4300
However, my comparison has been done using only the preview samples that are viewable via amazon's 'look inside' feature. But I hope that helps for those looking for ebook or discount versions.
Personally I'm reading it on the internet. I found two sites with the same text and slightly different annotations. I read both of those, noting the difference between what they each consider important enough to stress and then I listen to the section I've just gone through on the Internet Archive collection, which is absolutely fabulous.
Thanks for the suggestions. I did see the one review that mentioned a misspelling on the first page. I think I'll have to download a few samples and go from there. And yes, trying to read annotations within the text of a book would drive me batty. I'll definitely stay away from any of those editions.
Nicola wrote: "and then I listen to the section I've just gone through on the Internet Archive collection, which is absolutely fabulous. "Apparently this is the RTE recording made on Bloomsday 1982 as part of the Joyce centenary celebration. I haven't listened to it yet, but I plan to. The reviews are uninamous - every one 5 stars!
https://archive.org/details/Ulysses-A...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulysses_...
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Nicola!
I'm sure you'll agree with the reviews Thomas :-)For anyone who thinks they might struggle with Ulysses I can't recommend this highly enough. One of the constant complaints is how pretentious it is or how difficult to understand what's going on. This performance (and it is a performance) shows how everyday the language is and the way they do it makes it so much easier to follow than just reading words on a page.
For instance in the very first part of the book one of the characters indulges in a mock Catholic ceremony while shaving. When I read it, it took a little bit to work out what he was doing; in the audio it's perfectly clear because the voice actor is intoning his words in a parody of a Catholic mass in a way that was instantly recognisable.
As well with so many different characters, internal thoughts and criss crossing ideas it’s easy to get lost in the written but the audio splits it up so well you never lose the plot as it were.
Nicola wrote: "For anyone who thinks they might struggle with Ulysses I can't recommend this highly enough. One of the constant complaints is how pretentious it..."I really must listen to this. Finnegan's Wake, that most thorny and unapproachable of books, also gains a lot by being read aloud. You hear the music and follow the thought so much more easily. And also some recent Shakespeare films -- Kenneth Branagh, Ian McKellan's Richard III -- which make Shakespeare's language so much more accessible without spoiling the poetry.
Charles wrote: I really must listen to this. ..."
You still do need some annotated text though, or at least I do. Even though it's lovely to listen to and makes the language much easier and the humour as well, there are so many allusions to things which would otherwise go right over my head. Like:
For this, O dearly beloved, is the genuine christine: body and
soul and blood and ouns. Slow music, please. Shut your eyes, gents.
One moment. A little trouble about those white corpuscles.
Silence, all.
I would have known that it was parodying a church service but not how very blasphemous it was.
Nicola wrote: "I would have known that it was parodying a church service but not how very blasphemous it was. "A lot of the book is like that. It's written in layers. There is a surface layer which is fairly easy to see and understand, but beneath this are allusions and motifs that make the text resonate.
The style of the book reminds me more of a piece of music than a novel. The first time through what the reader tends to notice is the melody, but upon further readings we notice the bass lines and counterpoint and themes and variations. And like a piece of music, especially foreign or avant garde music, we sometimes need to hear it a few times to get comfortable with it.
Listening to the RTE production (or one of the other audio versions) sounds like a great way to get comfortable with the book. Just be aware that some sections are less "melodious" than others and will be a bit harder to follow on audio.
I don't normally use annotated editions of books we read, but in this case, I'm considering it. Are there any recommendations on good annotated editions if I decide to get one?
There is no good annotated edition, to my knowledge. The standard book of annotations is Ulysses Annotated by Don Gifford, which is not an annotated edition of Ulysses itself but an extensive catalog of allusions. It is nearly as long as Ulysses itself, but quite handy at times. Reading it line by line along with the novel is a good way to lose the forest for the trees, but used sparingly it can be quite useful.
Thomas wrote: "There is no good annotated edition, to my knowledge. The standard book of annotations is Ulysses Annotated by Don Gifford, which is not an annotated edition of Ulysses itself but an ex..."I agree. Moreover, it's expensive, around $35, and for some reason not widely available used. Those who go looking for a used copy will be offered an earlier edition, shorter by some 1000 entries than the 1988 revision (the 2nd ed.). If you are a compulsive reader of footnotes, as I am, you might want it nearby, but it encourages that unhelpful idea that the book can't be understood without tracking down all the allusions, word games, puns, and whatnot. For me, it quite spoils the fun to be stopping every three words to look something up. When questions arise, we don't lack for hard-core readers in this group who will contribute.
The audio version which Nicola discovered is amazing. I would myself have trouble encountering the book for the first time by that means, but to listen to familiar parts read out is like crocuses in spring.
Charles wrote: Moreover, it's expensive, around $35, and for some reason not widely available used. "Actually, I'm finding plenty of used copies in good (for paperbacks) condition (which usually means some spine cracking and maybe somewhat worn covers, but all pages tight) for under $15 including shipping. Check abebooks and alibris.
I've decided for now not to pull the trigger, but to follow Thomas's suggestion to read the first time through without worrying a lot about annotations and depend on Thomas and others to alert us to significant under-the-surface elements.
Everyman wrote: "Actually, I'm finding plenty of used copies in good (for paperbacks) condition (which usually means some spine cracking and maybe somewhat worn covers, but all pages tight) for under $15 including shipping. Check abebooks and alibris."I wasn't seeing any 2nd editions.
I'm looking forward to reading comments along with you! I read the book early this year, so will not be re-reading it. I got the basic story and some of the allusions, but I know there were a lot that I missed. I decided to read it without trying to "get" everything, though I did check an online guide after each episode to make sure I at least got the main points. I plan to re-read it again at some point, with a more systematic approach to the allusions. For now, I really just enjoyed the book and will be interested to read your comments.
Thomas, have you decided on a particular edition that you are going to use?
John wrote: "Thomas, have you decided on a particular edition that you are going to use?"See msg 72? Or are you asking for an update, John?
Lily wrote: "John wrote: "Thomas, have you decided on a particular edition that you are going to use?"See msg 72? Or are you asking for an update, John?"
I was just curious since I am currently looking for a copy and thought it might be a good idea to have the same copy as the person leading the discussion.
John wrote: "I was just curious since I am currently looking for a copy and thought it might be a good idea to have the same copy as the person leading the discussion. "If you do for whatever reason want the same edition as Thomas mentioned above, there are plenty of copies available, some fairly cheaply, on AbeBooks: http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Searc...
O.K. I am guilty of not ever finishing Ulysses. But I had done that with Moby Dick, the Decline and Fall, etc. and was hoping the choice would be Jude the Obscure because I never even started that. But I will give Ulysses another go just to be able to follow the moderator.p.s. I did listen to it on tape with a fabulous actor who performed all the characters with a variation of Irish.
John wrote: "Thomas, have you decided on a particular edition that you are going to use?"I'm only using my trusty 1946 because it has my notes from prior readings, and also because the binding and hinges are still strong after all these years. They sure don't make books like they used to.
I also have a copy of the Modern Library edition, which is the 1961 resetting, I think. I haven't read that edition, but again, all the various editions are substantially the same.
The only editions that I would strongly advise against are the badly scanned Kindle or public domain editions.
Well, one other. Apparently there is a simplified "Reader's Edition" by one Danis Rose, who sought to "liberate the text" for the general reader. I think it's out of print (having been sued by the Joyce estate) but just in case you stumble across a copy, do pass it by.
Thomas wrote: "I'm only using my trusty 1946 because it has my notes from prior readings, and also because the binding and hinges are still strong after all these years. They sure don't make books like they used to. ."I shall be reading my leather bound Franklin Mint edition (Random House, I think) which has been sitting on my bookshelves since I was a teenager and thought it would be a great thing to read all these 'Great Books'. Most of them I've never opened :) I was going to discontinue the monthly deliveries which came to my parents house for years, but my mother, who was quite intelligent, but had only a grade 4 education, greatly enjoyed reading them, so I kept them coming. It seems she read this one, (because the pages aren't stuck together like they are with brand new never opened gold page edged books).
One reason I prefer reading ebooks, besides the easy portability, is that I feel more at liberty to underline things, and write notes in the margins. I was taught not to write in books when I was young, and to this day I feel I must fill the book with little sticky notes rather than deface the pages.
Patrice wrote: "The Great Courses sale catalog came around and I went ahead and ordered the course on Ulysses. So, I guess I'm committed."Glad you're on board for Ulysses! I've heard this course is quite good. I'm thinking about getting it myself now... I think it's available on Audible and I may just have to spend a credit.
Patrice wrote: "The Great Courses sale catalog came around and I went ahead and ordered the course on Ulysses. So, I guess I'm committed."Thanks for reminding me -- I got that course some time back when I was planning to read Ulysses, but never listened to it. Now I will, if I can fit it in around Shakespeare!
Classics and the Western Canon
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Ulysses Annotated (other topics)Ulysses (other topics)
Ulysses Annotated (other topics)
Ulysses Annotated (other topics)
Leviathan (other topics)
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Yes. The discussions remain open if you want to peruse them and add your own thoughts. I didn't take part, but I've seen many wonderful comments from those who did.