The Sundered Book Club discussion
Fire in the Blood
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Fire in the Blood - For those of you who couldn't put it down
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Word of mouth is how books get sold. Books being sold is how I get to write more books!
Mod
Word of mouth is how books get sold. Books being sold is how I get to write more books!
Yes, I definitely loved Zoonie. Even though Havilar has these extra abilities due to her chosen status, she still maintains her innocence. She's not as naive as she once was but then again (I'm trying to remember what part of the book) Havilar does make a comment that she understands what's going on since she read about something similar in a chapbook.
Did Dahl jeopardize his chance to regain his paladinhood? It seemed that he was starting to figure out that Oghma did not abandon him so will his god abandon him now that he's struck the deal?
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But on the base level, since Oghma's true Neutral, I don't think he cares too much about a deal with a devil. I think he'd probably mostly be annoyed at the distraction--but he's been content to wait Dahl out for the better part of a decade, so maybe not.
In some way I can see him being like, "Ooh. New challenge. How are you going to get around THIS one, wayward son?"
But one thing I like about the current take on the Realms is that they prefer the gods being mysterious and indirect. Putting the interpretation of their desires and goals and reactions in the hands of their mortal followers. If there's a god in the pantheon such a mindset is suited to, it's Oghma. "I gave you a brain--use it!"
I got the impression that Raedra "married" Cormyr by the end. Does this mean she's going to pull an Elizabeth I and reign by herself, thus leaving the succession to her cousin (Erzourd, I think is how its spelled)? Or will she take a consort some time later just so that the succession will be determined?At first I didn't like Raedra when I read the sample chapter but I started to like her as the book progressed. She was definitely the true heir but the succession question isn't entirely settled yet unless she produces heirs or her cousin does (I didn't see any indication that he has kids but he might, I guess).
They didnt exactly leave Brin of the hook were the succession was involved, atleast thats how I read it. Raedra basically told him im not gonna make you marry me but if Cormyr needs you we will find you and you'll serve Cormyrs needs. I see possible future complications in Brins ad Havis future.
Yeah, I caught that too. If Brin is not cut out of the succession, is legitimized, etc and he decides to marry Havilar...lol...Cormyr could potentially have a tiefling queen and heirs.
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I think she'd get married--she doesn't want Erzoured to gain a claim to the throne, even as regent for a child. But I think she's going to wait for a guy who's definitely not in it for the throne and who understands that he is always, always coming second to her job. That might mean another arrangement like she and Brin had, but I hope she finds a decent partner who appreciates her.
Just finished, loved it, and I need to know when the next one will be released. O_OZoonie was awesome, and probably my favorite addition to the cast. I'm happiest with Dahl and Fari getting a clue about how they feel about each other. That's been driving me nuts since the first time they met. As for Dahl and Oghma, I get the impression that Dahl isn't supposed to be a paladin and that Oghma has a different plan for him.
I went back and re read all the Farideh and Dahl parts because theyre so adorable. :) And yeah since it seems like Oghma took away Dahl's paladinhood for his own good i dont think hes ever going to get it back.
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Torradin341: I'm working on Ashes of the Tyrants right now. I don't actually know the release date, but I assume it's next Fall/Winter.
Erin: Thanks for sharing that about Dahl -- I am love hearing behind-the-scenes secrets about how a writer's initial vision for a book changes by the time it's finished and published.I really loved this book! I think it's the strongest of the series so far. It's got so much character development, so many high stakes and tense scenes and impossible decisions, tempered with enough humor and touching moments to keep it from getting excruciating. While I liked The Adversary, it felt dreary and muddled, and it was at times difficult to follow. This book had just as much going on as The Adversary, but it felt more organized and less overwhelming.
I guess I'll be the first to start speculating on the loophole in Lorcan and Dahl's contract: Lorcan never said Dahl couldn't write to Farideh. And hey, look at that, Dahl's got a shiny little bottle of ink especially for love letters. HMMMMM. :) I'm not asking for author confirmation on that; it'll be a long wait to the next book, and speculation is fun.
Erin I think the changes from the original tiefling story has worked out pretty darn good. I love this series. I was thinking about the ink that Dahl had in his back and agree that is a potential way around the agreement. Extremely interested to see were this all goes.
I was very excited to see Tiumat in this book and cant wait to see if he shows up anywere else in the realms.
Erin, you have made my month. Between Fire in the Blood and confirming there is a next one (I assumed, but hearing the author say so is great), I am fit to burst. This series has quickly become my favorite Forgotten Realms series, and I hope you get to continue to write it for as long as you want!I am also very excited to see how Dahl exploits all the loopholes in Lorcan's (surprisingly sloppy) contract. I'd have to re-read the wording, but I think a telepathy spell would be a valid work-around. Also passing notes, exchanging letters, speaking through someone (tell so-n-so I said...) and a few other things come to mind right away. In fact, I think as long as someone else was in the same room for Dahl to be speaking to, they might be able to communicate quite easily, though that could be pretty risky.
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As for the deal--Dahl's got no idea what he's specifically agreed to. He doesn't have a contract in hand, after all. There's certainly a line, and Lorcan's certainly made this deal when he was not in a state to be making careful agreements so definitely loopholes, but the forfeit of guessing wrong is his immortal soul. Also the mail service between Harrowdale and Djerad Thymar is notoriously unreliable. :p
But I was maybe a little obvious with the ink.
That's what I thought. There was no written contract. It was a sort of verbal agreement so there had to be loopholes. As for as Lorcan, what's his deal? I don't think it is possible for him to love. Obviously he's been pressured to corrupt Farideh but what is his real problem? He is acting like the abusive bad boyfriend. I really hope Farideh can get out of the situation with him. I know she does have strong feelings for Lorcan but he's psychologically abused her. She does deserve better (Dahl). Of course there is the pact issue. She probably couldn't remain a warlock if the pact is dissolved. Could she make another one (I'm a little confused on fey and infernal pacts)? How about becoming an ordinary, run of the mill wizard? She know's ritual magic, etc. Are there astral or at least neutral patrons who could give her another kind of warlock pact so she can get away from Lorcan?
I think part of why she cant really end her pact with Lorcan is because as a Brimstone Angel and a Chosen of Asmodeus, if she wasn't already claimed, a lot of other probably worse devils would want a pact with her and that would put her and especially Havilar in more danger. I don't know if any being besides a devil would care about her being a Brimstone Angel, so it might be difficult to make any other kind of pact?As for Lorcan, i think his main motivations for his actions towards Farideh are Glasya and Asmodeus's higher purposes. But I would say he does have some kind of creepy, unhealthy, selfish feelings for her. He is half human after all.
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My biggest fears in order:
1. No questions.
2. Few questions, including my grandma who asks whether I'm going to hurry up with another great-grandchild already.
3. I forget my password again, cannot log in to answer. :p
The one part of the book that I felt didn't get much attention was Farideh's choseness. What does it mean exactly to be a brimstone angel? Is this something that will become clearer in later books? I don't get what Asmodeus is doing. What is he up to and why choose Farideh and Havilar? I understand that it probably everything to do with Bristos Kaskos (sp?). There wasn't much light shed on that and I wish there was. Lorcan doesn't seem to have too much clue on it either other than the pressure he's under from Glasya. Sometimes its difficult to figure out all the devil intrigue in the books. Its similar in some ways to the drow (although I haven't had the difficulty understanding their motives, schemes, etc). The devils' motives are less defined (other than the usual corrupt and devour). For instance, what were they doing in Neverwinter? I read Salvatore's Neverwinter Saga and Brimstone angels but I still couldn't figure out what they were trying to do.
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1. Bryseis Kakistos engineered the twins' birth so that she could be resurrected. But that went poorly because they twinned. She'd anchored her soul to the zygote and when it split, it ripped her apart. The two anchor points remained behind and now those pieces are contained within Farideh and Havilar.
2. She wants to come back because she's pissed at Asmodeus. She feels he betrayed her--and the details of this are actually in the Adversary's epilogue. She was promised a place at Asmodeus's right hand, but then he dawdled about it and she decided to betray him. He engineered her death and told her she had to be patient. She was not patient (for reasons...) and went with this resurrection plan, which went awry. And then the Sundering came and so Asmodeus imbued Bryseis Kakistos as his Chosen...but Bryseis Kakistos is dead and in parts so that power is split up. Farideh and Havilar received a big portion of those powers, and what BK got, she can't tap because she can't remember how to work it. So from Asmodeus's point of view, he's given Bryseis Kakistos what he promised. If she'd just been patient, she would have been the kind of Chosen you imagine when you hear the word--fear effect, burning angel visage, imp minions, and more. Their deal is done, and she's even more pissed.
3. But she doesn't remember how to get back at him. And honestly, she doesn't remember everything about why she wants to and what she planned to do--as you see in this book, she's forgotten Alyona. (Who is Alyona? NEXT BOOKS.)
4. Asmodeus is not screwing around with that though. He knows that Bryseis Kakistos knows how to steal his godhood, but he's banking on the fact she can't--not so long as the twins are alive and not on her side. He also knows that there are archdevils who are incautious enough to throw in with Bryseis Kakistos--he can't let them figure out what's going on.
5. Glasya has cottoned to the fact that something is awry here. The twins are Chosen and yet they don't really embody anything about her father's worship. They probably could--but they noticeably don't. She's not going to do anything too dangerous, but addressing the non-corruption is something Asmodeus can't complain about. Not without tipping his hand. So she doesn't particularly care about Farideh. She's watching Lorcan and Asmodeus at this point.
That clears some stuff up now. So Farideh and Havilar aren't exactly chosen? Bryseis Kakistos is. My question is, who were Farideh and Havilar's biological parents? Where did they exactly come from or is this stuff for a future book :)?
Mod
So demons are easy--let's start there. Demons corrupt to cause chaos, which ultimately means destruction. Break it all down to it's component molecules and move on. Slow or speedy, most demons follow this pattern. Which makes sense--they're predators, devourers. They are the wolves and mortals are the sheep.
Devils, on the other hand, do their best work when playing off the status quo. What do you want? What do you yearn for? What has the world kept from you? If society doesn't create things for you to crave, create structures that keep you from grabbing what you want, then their job's harder. Which, to me, makes Asmodeus's godhood make sense--he needs people alive to keep society in place, to find the people who can be corrupted or culled. If he can draw power from the living as well as the dead, he's in a much better position.
So if the demons are the wolves, the devils are the shepherds. Make no mistake--the end of this story is fresh mutton no matter who gets to the sheep first--but the shepherds want the sheep alive as long as they're useful. So all this complexity is in their favor.
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Later books! :)
Their parents are named in The Adversary epilogue: Adastreia and Chiridion.
LOL, I've got to go back and re read the Adversary. I missed some of these small hints the first time :)
Just finished the book. I loved it! I felt the relationship between Dahl and Fari was a bit sudden, but still cute. I still love Lorcan, but Dahl has grown on me, and Lorcan was a jerk in this one, particularly at the end. Tiamet's presence surprised me, and the intrigue just keeps growing! Five stars, Erin!
The relationship was teased in the last book, so I thought it was a natural development rather than being rushed. Plus, he's of similar age to Farideh, reasonably attractive, male, and spends a lot of time bickering with our heroine while also braving countless horrors at stressful situations at her side. It really was only a matter of time! I actually thought that the hookup with Lorcan came completely out of the blue, especially after all the masquerading as lovers going on (that's also a trope).Speaking of Lorcan, he was pretty textbook domestic abuser here, and would've been even if he hadn't slept with Farideh. It's not just the poisoning (and robbing her of her personal choices), but also the playing on her insecurities, emotional abuse, and interfering with her other relationships. The problem is, there's a strong undercurrent in YA that sees these abuses as "sexy", so I'm glad that Farideh seems smart enough to buck the trend. Hopefully that keeps going on.
You have a good point. The relationship between Dahl and Fari wasn't completely unexpected. One could tell at the end of Lesser Evils Dahl at least liked her. The part that was sudden for me was they went from sort of dodging around the issue, with the "maybe they'll get together, maybe they won't", to being lovers. But nevertheless, they are cute together.
What does everyone think of Tiamat? I think there is something coming thats huge that involves that particular dragon.
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Lorcan's always been pretty textbook, IMO. But until he's set next to Dahl, it's hard to see. And I wouldn't count him out entirely. He shifted hard to the devilish side here, but the tricky thing about Lorcan is that he is becoming...let's go with "less awful" by knowing Farideh. Which is another thing I've always done intentionally--it's easy to paint abusive relationships as incredibly obvious, with evil men and weak women. But that's just as dangerous (or even more) than not acknowledging them. It means when you have an actual abusive situation, it's easy to miss it because "he's a nice guy" or "he really loves her" or "she's not one of those doormats."
It's interesting because my intent was that when they are alone--aside from the stuff with being jealous of Dahl and panicking and dosing her--they're more on balance than before. He's actually backed off pretty well post-Adversary. She's controlling the boundaries for the most part--with notable exceptions, that she still manages to turn around and take charge of. But the question is, is any of that good enough?
Especially when he gets his heart stomped and falls back hard--because really, from his perspective, she dumped him over something that he didn't even really get to explain and then leaped into someone else's arms (someone she insisted she wasn't remotely interested in. To be honest, I think as easily as he can pretend he doesn't love her, he can also pretend that Dahl is just Farideh's way of punishing him.
And there's elements that would support that--she still loves Lorcan. She still kind of wishes he'd shape up. The fact that Asmodeus doesn't offer to get rid of Lorcan for her, only to make him behave better (one way or another) is telling.
This biz is definitely not done being complicated.
I figured it was complicated but I really want to see Farideh and Dahl together since Lesser Evils. They are very good friends and they work well together. Lorcan is abusive and I don't think that in the long term that would be a healthy relationship. Granted, Dahl has his problems (his alcohol problem) but I really want to see them work it out.
I agree. I think that while Fari may be good for Lorcan, Lorcan is absolutely not good for her. Even beyond his abusive tendencies, I don't think he can ever really "get" Farideh. He's selfish and arguably evil while she is loving and heroic. Family and friendship are very important to Fari, but however much Lorcan may care about her he doesn't really care about any of the people she loves, and I don't know that that's ever going to change. Dahl on the other hand is a genuinely good person. He, like Farideh, is pretty heroic and he cares about people. He has a capacity for friendship that Lorcan really doesn't, and that's something that I think would have to be essential in a relationship with Farideh.
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I really thought that Havilar was pregnant when she mentioned her breasts getting bigger while trying on the new dress and later Farideh wondering why Havilar's bodice won't fit her.However if they really spend months in the wilderness tracking down the crown prince / king that would have been noticed. Also Fari and Havi seem keep track of their periods, Havi would have notived that too
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LOL, I honestly thought the same as Michael but I guess she isn't..
Erin wrote: "So...That is the weirdest thing I'm going to call NDA for. Possibly ever. (Hopefully ever.) That detail is there for a reason, and it's not in this book."Oh, I understand. WotC marketing determined that female warriors are more favorably received if they are particular full-bosomed and thus as part of the Sundering, Sharess is casting a secret spell to grow the breasts of all female warriors in the realms, Since Fari is a caster, she is not affected.
That's the secret reason, isn't it? :)
Thank you thank you thank you for Fire in the Blood! I've enjoyed reading FitB so much, I'm afraid to finish it! Havi's and Fari are reunited, Zoonie's adorable, the imps are adorable, Fari and Dahl are together, Dahl's figured out why he fell, it's all so beautiful and wonderful! I just KNOW the other shoe is going to drop any page now, and though I can't NOT finish the book, but damn, this is such a wonderful moment, I'm almost scared to ruin it by turning the proverbial (literal?) page!
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LOL. If that were the reason, you would have heard my head exploding halfway around the world before I ever wrote that...
Now that my schedule's slowed down a little, it occurs to me, I haven't asked my usual questions on this thread! With book club, I like to wrap up with some discussion topics about the book and how it fits into the greater line.
1. Was there anything about this that made you want to game? Any scenarios or characters you're planning on swiping? Any new urges to pick up the Realms as a setting?
2. Did this book affect the way you feel about Cormyr? (And maybe, how much experience did you have with Cormyr before this?)
3. Unlike the Sundering series, this book is not directly linked to the current RPG storyline (aside from Tiamat's cameo). Do you prefer one strategy over the other? Does this affect your interest in a novel or an RPG adventure?
I had no knowledge of Cormyr before reading this book. I have never played any D&D before but all these books have been making me more and more curious. I have friends that play, so once I get my back better I may have to start playing.
Any advice on character types to go with for a noob.
1. Now that I've read your books, I can't help but to play nothing but Tieflings...and I love it2. Before reading your books I avoided the realms, so I'm learning the realms through your books. That being said, Cormyr strikes me as a place to have a longer arching storyline then a dungeon of the week style of game play.
3. I'm coming to your series from comic books, and I shall tell you nothing frustrates me more then when a series I like get hijacked by a crossover event (especially a bad one). It usually results in the series dropping what it's doing to accommodate the event, even if it had nothing to do with said event in the first place. I didn't mind it so much with the adversary because I read it as book 3 of the brimstone angels rather then the sundering. Tiamat's cameo here did make me stop and re-read the paragraph. It just didn't sit right with me.
1. Since reading Forgotten Realms books, I've wanted to play D & D but its difficult to find a group here and I don't know how to play nor do I have the time for it between work/school, etc.2. Other than reading Troy Denning's book the Sentinel, I didn't know much about Cormyr. After reading the book, I learned more. The kingdom does remind me of some Medieval English/French, etc kingdoms especially when it came to the succession issue. Hopefuly Cormyr doesn't end up with a War of the Roses scenario :).
3. Since I am coming to the series through books, I don't mind the RPG angle so much. If it makes sense in the book then I think it can work (Salvatore's Rise of the King put the Tiamat/Tyranny of Dragons in there for a bit and it works so far). I thought it worked pretty well in Fire in the Blood. I felt in a way that it was a teaser for bigger stuff to come.
I read a lot of FR books, but I don't play D&D much myself--though I'd like to.On a somewhat different note, now whenever I hear Taylor Swift's song "Trouble", it makes me think of Lorcan and Farideh lol.
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I call "Global Concepts" by Robert DeLong the Ballad of the Obarskyrs, even though it's not really appropriate in a lot of ways. I can just really see it played over a trailer of their critical scenes.
I feel like "Dark Side" by Kelly Clarkson could work for Farideh and Dahl, and "Teenage Dream" by Katy Perry kind of makes me think of Havilar and Brin. :P
It seems like a lot of people got their copies of the book, got sucked in to what I know was probably an amazing adventure, and finished it quickly. This thread is for all of you. Feel free to come here, share your thoughts, and not have to worry about spoiling it for people like me. :)
So don't hold yourselves back!! Feel free to scream from the rooftops how much you loved the book, ask all of your questions, and silently gloat about getting to discuss it with Erin before the rest of us.
Looking forward to avoiding your spoilers :)