Dostoyevsky, Fyodor- Crime and Punishment "Relaxed Buddy Read"; Start date November 12, 2014***REVISIT starts September 15, 2018****REVISIT starts November 15, 2018***Revist starts January 10, 2019

[Sarah]

Beginning of chapter five and I can't handle all these sloshkivovs this and marmalade that Russian names - so anyway the main character is contemplating going to his friend, only friend?, and then he remembers "IT". He will meet his friend after "IT", he had forgotten about "It". Well I said what is it, I said what is it? (Those are the lyrics to a song BTW). So now I have to delve into the inner thoughts of the main character and read fifty pages of his internal dialogue, I am sure, before I find out what "It" is. I figured out what the book is about. It is the first character study of the antisocial personality disorder. See, I am genius.

[Sarah]

NancyHelen wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Haha - I think I am the furthest behind. I am still on Part One. No reading for me tomorrow. I work a 12 shift. Gotta get to bed now for five hours of sleep. But I have learned now ab..."

No, I am still the furthest behind, I have not even finished part I.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

*giggles*

[Nicole]

Margaret wrote: "Ha! You have an interest in Psychology! lol! I do too! so cool :) I'll have to look into that book.

[spoilers removed]"

Oh guys, I have seriously loved reading your discussion under the spoiler tag. Don't stop, cause i think I am somewhere around the same part as you and loving the commentary.

Margaret, yes, I have read classics before, but mainly English ones, that I know are differently written to American ones, and I think are different to Russian ones also, if this is any example. I'm a bit hit and miss with classics, honestly. Brave New World was another one that I expected to love but didn't :/

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I struggled with Brave New World also.

There is something about Russian history and literature that fascinates me and the small number of Russian classics I have read have just blown my mind. Such a fascinating country/culture

[Nicole]

I tend to like Russian contemporary myself. Deathless by Cat Valente is a great one, as is China Mieville's City and the City.

[Margaret]

Nicole wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Ha! You have an interest in Psychology! lol! I do too! so cool :) I'll have to look into that book.

[spoilers removed]"

Oh guys, I have seriously loved reading your discussion u..."

@Nicole: ah...I actually took a peek at your profile and I thought....duh! she has read classics, silly me! Anyhow I think you are right, English classics are different from Russian, that is for sure. American classics are also. With the Russian classics it seems heavily steeped in the social dialogue, well, I think the English classics are as well but it is different. I have read a few Russian classics that did blow me out of the water, I mean in a bad way.....like for instance talk about tedious reading, it just about made me forget Russian novels. I need to take a look, just a look at New Brave World, it sounds familiar but that is all. I need to check out those Russian Contemporary books.

@Sarah...I am feeling your pain, if you were to go with the flow and let the book spell it out for you rather than try to figure everything immediately, you will have a better time of it. It is somewhat of an "unmasking", an unveiling of sorts. I had to learn to do that with William Faulkner's books. I understand what you mean about the names! The first time around, it drove me nuts! Especially between the antagonist and the friend! I had to what? which one is which? especially when I was listening to the audio. That is partly why I started reading and listening. I am more of a visual person than audible. It might help by writing them names down on a piece of paper and then next to their name, who they are.

Don't beat yourself up over the book, don't try to figure it all out at once, enjoy the journey, well, the book. I'll be happy to continue discussing it with you, no hurries and no worries. :)

@Karen: ah....I have always been fascinated with Russian history, the culture and the food is so freaking good! Of course when I mention the food, I mean what I have made myself. I would love to go to a Russian restaurant. Are you going to join us on reading The Brothers Karamazov in January? I am looking forward to it so much and yet I feel a little intimated by how big it is! 1600 pages! The largest book I have ever read was just under 1300 pages and boy, I thought it would take forever!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Margaret
Good advice for Sarah!

And I am tempted to read The Brothers Karamazov with you... but eek! that size...! I have already comitted to a 1000 page book in Jan, so maybe Jan for me will just be less numbers of books being read, but bigger sized!

[Margaret]

lol! what was I thinking to read three more books in January along with TBK! what! Am I insane? Four all together and two of them are classics.....wow.... :P

[Sarah]

Yeah, I have signed up for some real door stoppers.

[Srividya]

All this discussion here is making me want to sign up for TBK as well!

Which edition/version/translation of TBK are you reading Margaret? Mine has only 1000 odd pages!

[Sarah]

Well after I posted "IT" has not happened but has become possibley predictable. (view spoiler)[I am assuming he is planning to murder this lady he got the loan from, who seems like a dark abusive character. Then he also had that nightmare, God it was horrific. I think that is the most gruesome and horrific scene I have ever read of animal cruelty. It made me sick. I wasn't sure if this was a childhood memory, which would be completely traumatizing, or a symbol of some internal struggle with parts of himself because of what he is planning. He is both the sympathetic little boy wanting to protect this horse and this brutal crazed killer. (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

Srividya wrote: "All this discussion here is making me want to sign up for TBK as well!

Which edition/version/translation of TBK are you reading Margaret? Mine has only 1000 odd pages!"

@Karen and Srividya: I must had an eyeball or two see huge numbers on TBK because I have Amanda's book in which I need to get back to her....it is the Pevear/Volokhonsky translation and only 776 pages! bah! good because I was freaking out a bit since I already will have three more books to read that month. I am actually going to read it on the Kindle but going with the Garnet translation. So, yes, join us....both of you. It is not so huge after all. :)

@Sarah (view spoiler)[sounds like you are moving along. I loved how he kept saying "it" instead of the deed, the murder, what have you. I think it gives it more drama but of the eerie kind. I think I agree with you, his nightmare was hellish for me to read/listen to because I am an animal lover. I think it says a lot of how everyone got so into the beating of that poor mare and the last part really disturbed me...when his father kept saying that they should stay out of it, it is none of their business! I think you hit it on the head when you say that it is a symbol of an internal struggle with parts of himself. He is seeing all this violence and yet having a sickening reaction and then his father blithely sitting back wiping his hands clean of the whole scene. You are doing great! It can a doorstopper if you let it. I remember chugging through quite a few books but determination is everything! It is a beautiful book, I guarantee you! (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

Part 4

(view spoiler)[Can I just bow down and say BRILLIANT first??!! Simply brilliant. If I had to pick a favourite part from all the parts, despite not having read the last two, I will say it is this one! Oh what pace, what writing, what intricacies of thought and what insanity. It made me want to laugh, to cry, to warn and finally to heave a small sigh of relief while still wanting to go ahead and see what happens. Lol too many emotions!

Karen I totally agree with you. It does read like a radio serial and what fun! I just saw that other comment of yours regarding its publishing - that's awesome. Now we know why and how Dostoyevsky managed to create such an awesome book.

Okay now that I am done with the 'fangirling' aspect (lol) let me move onto serious thoughts and impressions.

Svidrigailov - What an immensely interesting character! Is he or will he be the villain of this piece? I wonder. My heart almost stopped beating at that last scene where he reveals himself near Sonia's room. I kind of expected it to be him, especially after he shows up at Raskolnikov's in the morning but didn't realise that his room was so close. Can I just say that I wanted to shout out a warning to Raskolnikov to keep shut!

The interaction between the investigator and Raskolnikov - At first, I was getting irritated by it (guess somehow when I read the book, I become Raskolnikov, Lol) - as I just couldn't understand the point of his ramblings (oops sorry but that's how I saw it in the beginning) and then later I was like WOW.. the cat and mouse games are truly on! What sheer brilliance by the author to create this part. All I was doing at that point of time was hoping against hope that Raskolnikov doesn't blurt out anything! I am so rooting for this protagonist - isn't it surprising that despite everything that he has done and despite the fact that he feels more guilt than remorse, the reader actually feels empathetic towards him?

I am not a Christian and therefore did not get the significance of the Bible verse that was mentioned in this part. Did it mean that despite all the sins that they have committed, they can still start a new life? Or was it something else?

That scene at Donya's place with Luzhin and Raskolnikov was just too good. I don't know what problems Luzhin will create but despite all that I found myself wanting to kick him out of that room!

And at the end of the scene when the two friends part - Oh I almost had tears in my eyes then. It was a really wonderful scene where the good that still exists in the protagonist, despite all his faults, was displayed so beautifully.

Finally I don't like the police officer. Well obviously i won't since I am rooting for Raskolnikov! (hide spoiler)]

Sorry my thoughts are in a jumble and I skipped from scene to different scene here..

[Margaret]

Srividya wrote: "Part 4

Can I just bow down and say BRILLIANT first??!! Simply brilliant. If I had to pick a favourite part from all the parts, despite not having read the last two, I will say it is this one! Oh w..."

Srividya: (view spoiler)[Oh, I don't think that your thoughts are a jumble, not at all. What I get though is that you are being energized and excited by fantastic, brilliant writing. It is interesting that the reader ends up siding somewhat with our antagonist who happens to be a brutal axe murderer! Isn't that a weird twist? lol...now that was brilliant of the author!

So, the part of the reading in the Gospel of Lazarus....yes, it is forgiveness, a shedding of sorts and ultimately a renewal, Christ giving the command for him to come forth and then He told those present to unwrap Lazarus. The shedding of rotting grave clothes to me represents taking off the old, the sin and coming forth fresh, new and full of life, and yes, forgiveness. I totally loved that part of the book, so dramatic and emotional.

Funny you know I actually liked the police officer, well, detective/lawyer. I thought he was quite clever, funny at times and yet I found myself rooting for Raskolnikov and at the same time for the detective to nail him! (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

Margaret: (view spoiler)[Thanks for explaining that part in the Bible. It did feel that way but since I haven't really studied the Bible, I wasn't sure. Yes that part was really dramatic and emotional and I simply loved it.

Lol yes I am excited. In fact, I read the book late at night when my daughter is sleeping, so that she doesn't really think that I am going nuts. ;)

To be honest, yes the detective/investigator is a really interesting character. I look at him as the other side of the coin in this story, which really makes the book an interesting read. However, I don't want him to nail him, despite knowing (rationally) that he should! Lol what contradicting thoughts this book inspires! It makes you want to put aside all societal norms and rules just so that this character, Raskolnikov, can go free; and yet there is a part of you that wants justice for those two murders!

I don't know if there are other such books where you root so strongly for the antagonist, who is shown as a protagonist and feel that everyone else is the villain, just not him! (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

I agree, I would love to find a book where you are pulled in all kinds of directions and on both sides! Crazy making!

[Srividya]

Part 5

(view spoiler)[Oh this part had me by the edge of my seat. I agree with you Karen that scene where she was accused of taking that 100 rouble note was really intense! I loved the way Andrei (forgot his last name) and Raskolnikov came to her aid. I was cheering them on completely!

Oh the last scene was fantastic! Yes you knew it before hand that Svidgairilov was going to listen in and yet when he says those things - I was like, shit.. now what!!

Something I couldn't understand was -why did Raskolnikov choose Sonya as the person to whom he confessed his crime. Was it because he had started liking her - that seems too obvious and yet not satisfactory as an answer.

Was it because he found in her something that was in him as well - a fellow sufferer perhaps but yet he seems so different and so crazy that I can't buy this either.

Was it because he finally wanted to simply get it off his chest and thought that maybe Sonya is the only one, being a complete stranger and an unaffected third party, he could confess to?

I really didn't understand the reason behind Sonya being chosen, although I loved that scene where he shares it with her. It was so emotional and moving, where he reveals himself completely, warts and all and she accepts him with all that. I don't know why but that whole episode moved me. (hide spoiler)]

I agree with you Karen and Margaret - he is indeed a genius to have created such a wonderful book that maintains tension and suspense till the very end.

Couldn't read at all on Sunday but today I doubt I can hold back anymore. Am going to finish this. Its like a big need to know has taken hold of me! Lol

[Srividya]

@Margaret - I have decided to join in on the TBK discussion as well. These books are made more wonderful with all the discussions.

[Sarah]

I am slowly progressing.

[Srividya]

@Sarah - where are you in the book?

[Sarah]

I am not even to part three yet. (view spoiler)[Rusky has been with fever and delerious in his apartment and some how this entourage of people have banned together and been helping him, but he awakens out of his delirium and is very rude to everybody, learns more about the developments in the murder investigation, meets his sister's fiancé, and typically seems to dislike everyone in general. He also is dealing with depression, anxiety, and a general sense of paranoia at the moment. (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

Ah okay but you are going pretty fast,given that you started out late. How are you liking it? (view spoiler)[Lol I love your name for him. That part really gives such an insight into the frame of mind that he is in. He shows all emotions - guilt, paranoia, anxiety and depression, as you mentioned but there is no remorse whatsoever in his mind. Its almost as if that murder was not his doing! He blames everyone for the state that he is in, except himself. A true insight into his conscience. (hide spoiler)]

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Srividya - I'm loving your thoughts, they really do convey your excitement and enthusiasm. I'm so glad you are enjoying the book and your comments make me feel like I'm back there reading it again!
(view spoiler)[ I think he chose Sonya as he felt a connection with her (someone driven to terrible acts due to external circumstance), but of course I could be wrong ;) (hide spoiler)]

[Srividya]

Karen - Thanks. Its just that this book is truly awesome. I have not really read a lot of Russian classics but I did attempt Anna Karenina and War and Peace this year and found them both a little too slow for my liking. This one, on the other hand, is so fast paced, so wonderfully brilliant in its writing that I am really excited! lol

(view spoiler)[I agree with you. In fact, after reading that explanation, it somehow feels right that he should confess to Sonya. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Srividya wrote: "Ah okay but you are going pretty fast,given that you started out late. How are you liking it? [spoilers removed]"

Yes he does seem detached, I have been wondering if it is still shock or he is just a sociopath. I am wondering how much of this character profiling is from when Dostoyevski spent time in prison and maybe did a lot of observing people of this nature?

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I agree, the pacing of this book is great. Imagine if you were around at the time having to wait for the next part to be released? It would've been agony!!

[Nicole]

Okay, I've just started the fourth part, and I have to say, this is already so much more compelling than the second and third parts were, almost as good as the thriller aspect that we had in part one. I disagree completely that the pacing has been well done, but I'm looking forward to it being done now.

Like Srividya, I think this may just be the best part yet.

Just one question: The man that Raskolnikov woke up to find in his house, is that the man who is supposed to be his sister's husband to be, or someone else? It might be that I'm listening to it on audio book, but I got a bit confused without being able to rush back further into the book to reference the name.

[Srividya]

I FINISHED!!!!! Oh boy!!!! What a book!!! Okay am going to take some time right now and simply state that I LOVED IT!!! My heart's still beating fast and I can't stop beaming.. I am feeling all the thrills that you would feel after finishing an awesome book! This is definitely one of my top ten for this year!

Okay clearly you all can see that I am in no coherent frame of mind to put up any relevant thoughts regarding the last section. Will return a little later, when I can get that heart of mine to stop beating so fast and post my thoughts.

[Margaret]

lol Srividya....you did it! I love the fact that people love my most favorite book, awwwww. I think that it will be great to see you in January when we read TBK. Writing that reminds me of the abb. for a serial killer.....hehe

so I think you all are right about Sonja (view spoiler)[I think her sensitivity and the fact that she is a "fallen woman" and she has maintained a certain spiritual purity/innocence really enabled our protagonist to choose her to open up to. Also she is in the business of helping others, being unselfish, that is. (hide spoiler)]

Sarah...Dostoyevsky spent a whopping 8 years in prison and it was because the government felt his writing was subversive? I believe. I get the feeling that he was very observant and I know that he probably had plenty of time to get lots of material from his fellow prisoners.

I also don't think that Rasko baby (I forget how to spell his name right now!) is a sociopath, he has too many roaming feelings of empathy and convictions and he also doesn't seem to manipulate. He is too busy trying to push people away and keep his delusions and guilt at bay! I wondered about what his mental state would be....hmmmmm....any ideas?

[Amanda]

Nicole wrote: "Just one question: The man that Raskolnikov woke up to find in his house, is that the man who is supposed to be his sister's husband to be, or someone else? It might be that I'm listening to it on audio book, but I got a bit confused without being able to rush back further into the book to reference the name."

It is the man his sister used to work for. The one that that everyone thought she was having an affair with.
I got a little confused at first, too, because I didn't remember his name.

[Amanda]

Srividya wrote: "I FINISHED!!!!! Oh boy!!!! What a book!!! Okay am going to take some time right now and simply state that I LOVED IT!!! My heart's still beating fast and I can't stop beaming.. I am feeling all the..."

I'm so glad you loved it, Srividya. :)
It ended up being one of my favorites, too.

[Nicole]

Thanks Amanda. That makes so much more sense now.

[Nicole]

Dear all of you who said Part 4 was the best: You are completely and one hundred percent right. I am just in the middle of listening ot this all in one sitting and am up to the part where Razumikhin becomes "like a son and brother to them" in Raskolnikov's absence. I'd writ more but, OMG need to read more first.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Oh I'm so glad you're getting into it Nicole

[Srividya]

Am so glad that you liked it too Nicole. It is a very emotional part isn't it. I loved the way Razumikhin has become one of the family.

[Nicole]

I've read another chapter or so, between Raskolnikov and Sonya and I think that might be it for it for tonight. I also just saw there were six, not five parts. I'm glad I realised this once I was more than halfway through. It's very long.

[Srividya]

Part 6 and Epilogue

Okay now I think I have come back to my saner self (hopefully) lol

(view spoiler)[This was a roller coaster ride. Somehow right from the beginning of this part, I knew that Svidrigailov would either kill himself or do something equally crazy. He never seemed to be in a sane frame of mind throughout. Oh that scene with that young fiancee of his.. I felt like bashing him up!! Pedophile is what he is!! Am glad he died. Never felt an ounce of respect for him.

I loved the end where Raskolnikov turns himself in. It was either that or suicide. His insanity had reached such levels that I was expecting one of the two and am glad he chose to turn himself in. I really loved the way Dostoyevsky wrote this part - he put forth all the confusion, the clarity, the doubts and yet the final decision and the calmness that follows the taking of a decision in such a beautiful manner that it made for a really great read.

I haven't read much about the author, so I can't really say much but from this book and based on all your discussions about him, it clearly shows that he is a really great observer of human behaviour and psyche and has really understood it very well.. I may be wrong but in this book it does come across really well. (hide spoiler)]

Epilogue (view spoiler)[Oh this part was again so beautiful, showcasing how a person changes with time. I don't know if Raskolnikov has fully changed or whether he will be able to or whether it is indeed possible for a murderer to change completely - but despite all that, I loved this part. I am an optimist by nature, one who believes that there is always hope and maybe because of that, I feel that everyone should be given a chance and hence loved that Raskolnikov got his.

Isn't it strange that in the fictional world, we are all about Raskolnikov getting his chance in life while in the real world it is completely different? Some times I wonder whether I am being a hypocrite but then I feel that the fictional world is made that way because of the author's imagination while reality is something completely different. In the real world, i doubt I will feel so much sympathy for an axe murderer!! (hide spoiler)]

Thanks to all of you and the wonderful discussions that we had, this book is now one of my top favourites!

Looking forward to doing the same with TBK! Lol Margaret, it does remind one of the serial killer! :)

[Margaret]

Srividya...wow, you summed up this book so well and with such clarity in your thought process. I always appreciate that in a person :)

(view spoiler)[You know you have brought something up that always in battling in my mind, well, not always, lol. The fact that reality and the fictional world doesn't always marry up, which I think is typical. Perhaps that is why we read books! When I read, I like to have a certain amount of reality in it. I look for it, crave it. I think that in this book, Dostoyevsky does take it optimistically and yet I don't think he was too far off. I would imagine that he saw and knew prisoners that came to a realization of the crime that they had committed. I bet he had seen death and the last rites among the fellow prisoners. Who knows what if he heard remorse and regret? Yes, his story is optimistic but I think he chooses to present that angle rather than the other end of the pole. I am sure that he probably had seen prisoners remain hard, scary, cruel to the end and never came to a self awareness of their crime. Perhaps there was a mix of different prisoners who had committed atrocious crimes and then there were prisoners such as himself who were subversives according to the government.

You are right I doubt that we would have sympathy for an axe murderer except...for those closest to him, his mother, a friend perhaps a kind guard who sees the person rather than the act? Does the act make a person? What if, a person experienced being kidnapped by his Amygdala (forebrain) and never would have committed the crime if he didn't find his wife in bed with another man? I think in the book, Dostoyevsky takes it deeper than most, he allows us to see the person and not just the act! He is more than being optimistic but rather seeing the spiritual perhaps?

Look at the case of Svidrigailov, the scumbag even was allowed remorse but he didn't get out alive! At least he was slightly aware of what he had done and couldn't deal with it. I must admit I felt pretty good about that whole scene, the gun, the bang. (hide spoiler)]

So, I am forward to more conversations with TBK! I have requested the audio and I am up next and I also have the book on Kindle. I would like to read and listen but not sure if the translation is the same, we'll see. So, see you around and then come January we'll have a blast!

[Nicole]

I'm still straggling round the end of part four, just reading Rostkolnokov's police interview where he loses it. Another favourite dramatic point in the book for me.

[Margaret]

Isn't that part great Nicole, I loved that interview and how Raskolnikov starts to lose it.

[Nicole]

Very hilarious. I am now at the beginning of part five which is so far less punchy than it's previous part.

[Sarah]

Finished Part 2. This section kept me on my toes. (view spoiler)[ It seemed for awhile there that Dosky wanted to confess or get caught - he was also seeming to be quite cocky. It seemed he may be changing his mind now, it seems like helping Sonya and her family has given him a new lease on life. It is making him feel alive again. But he sure does seem to give all his money away. He is a strange character (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Margaret, I a through part 2 but that is why I said maybe it is still the shock, because in this section I haven't seen a whole lot of remorse or empathy, until near the end. But so far not a lot. I anticipate this may come later?

[Nicole]

So I've just gotten to part 6 and am less than an hour away from finishing the audio book if I don't stop between now and then ;) I have to say, though, in a book called Crime and Punishment, I would have expected more of the Punishment to follow after the crime.

[Srividya]

@Sarah (view spoiler)[That is the true beauty of this book. Nowhere do you find a character so diverse in his mental composition as Raskolnikov. Undoubtedly he has murdered two people but yet his core seems to be one of innocence. I guess that is why we as readers end up feeling a little empathy towards him, as opposed to the usual feelings of horror and hatred. He is cocky and cunning when it comes to the crime and yet full of compassion towards those who are weak and live in a life filled with apathy (hide spoiler)]

@Nicole - that's great. (view spoiler)[Yes the punishment does seem less but when you look at the conditions, I guess it is harsh punishment in a way. I believe his reduced punishment came from the fact that he confessed his crime, which helped the detective to stay true to his words and reduce his punishment. Also it comes from the fact that he was painted as a insane person, someone who wasn't fully in control of his senses. Not sure but this is what I think (hide spoiler)]

@Margaret (view spoiler)[I agree with you. it does have an optimistic and spiritual feel to it and this does bode well with the entire story. It doesn't leave you with a sense of justice not being done. I guess that is because we have always felt sympathetic towards Raskolnikov and therefore want the best for him. And I believe it goes to the fact that Dostoyevsky's writing is so remarkable that it made the whole plot and ending seem plausible and acceptable, without any sense of being cheated, even at the end. (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

Srividya....you summed it up very well....love it :)

[Nicole]

Finished!!! Omg that ending...

[Margaret]

Wasn't it great?!!!

[Nicole]

It was seriously amazing. I did nothing but listen stupefied for the last hour of audio book.