Dostoyevsky, Fyodor- Crime and Punishment "Relaxed Buddy Read"; Start date November 12, 2014***REVISIT starts September 15, 2018****REVISIT starts November 15, 2018***Revist starts January 10, 2019

[Sarah]

Gotta finish up some books first, hopefully I can join this one... in a few days.

[Srividya]

@Margaret (view spoiler)[At present I believe that it is all his conscience. His basic instinct/ learning says that what he is planning is wrong in every which way that he can think of. However, he is nevertheless going ahead with it. Guilt, I believe, often leads us humans to try and rationalise our behaviour, if only to help us sleep better at night. Of course, in reality it doesn't help but still we do it. And where the crime is a big one, the more we tend to rationalise. I guess that is what Raskolnikov is trying to do here. Rationalise so that he won't feel guilty and where there is no guilt, it obviously means that there is no need for any remorse! (hide spoiler)]

I am also loving the manner in which the author is getting really deep into the character's mind and this is even better in the second part.

I believe in India, until recently we never had sophisticated forensics and even today I doubt our villages have the means of getting to those sophisticated tools and equipment. While some crime does remain unsolved, I still believe that good old detective work and understanding behaviour usually helps solve at least some of the crimes. Of course, there are still instances when the wrong people have been accused but I guess in some cases, it does work.

@Amanda - that is a very interesting book. Thanks for sharing. I have already added it to my ever growing TBR!

[Nancy]

I have only read Ch 1 - 3, but I loved the switchback style of his thoughts, which is so accurate to how people think. I honestly thought he was going to do something to the old woman there and then.

I got quite caught up in Marmeladov's story. The thing that has struck me so far is just what kind of squalor people lived in. Could you imagine living somewhere so small, cramped and dirty, with constant noise and almost no privacy?

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

NancyHelen wrote: "I got quite caught up in Marmeladov's story. The thing that has struck me so far is just what kind of squalor people lived in. Could you imagine living somewhere so small, cramped and dirty, with constant noise and almost no privacy? ..."

I know, the poverty is hard to imagine. Unfortunately many people in the world (including Russia) still live like that.
I went to Russia a few years ago and it is such a fascinating country, but the divide between those who "have" and "have not" is very large. Same in China.

[Amanda]

NancyHelen wrote: "I got quite caught up in Marmeladov's story. The thing that has struck me so far is just what kind of squalor people lived in. Could you imagine living somewhere so small, cramped and dirty, with constant noise and almost no privacy? "

What really got me was the mention that sometimes people would have to cross through their rooms. I couldn't imagine having so little privacy that strangers would have to walk through my living space to get somewhere.

[Amanda]

Srividya wrote: "@Amanda - that is a very interesting book. Thanks for sharing. I have already added it to my ever growing TBR!"

LOL! I'm glad I could help you with your tbr, Srividya ;).

It's a very interesting book and worth a read, especially if you're interested in forensics.

[Srividya]

Karen wrote: "NancyHelen wrote: "I got quite caught up in Marmeladov's story. The thing that has struck me so far is just what kind of squalor people lived in. Could you imagine living somewhere so small, crampe..."

@NancyHelen - I quite agree with Karen here. Poverty is a reality for us in India as well, where we have families who live in small, cramped spaces, often on the streets itself, where they have created their own temporary shelter. Some come to bigger cities from villages, seeking better fortunes, because of the horrible conditions back home. While some come alone, some come with their entire family and cannot afford a proper roof. This results in slum areas in almost every part of urban India, which simply showcases how deep the chasm is, which exists between the 'haves' and 'have-nots'.

[Srividya]

Amanda wrote: "Srividya wrote: "@Amanda - that is a very interesting book. Thanks for sharing. I have already added it to my ever growing TBR!"

LOL! I'm glad I could help you with your tbr, Srividya ;).

It's ..."

I am interested, which is why I couldn't resist the immediate addition :)

[Margaret]

Amanda, that book sounds very interesting, would I be able to handle it? You know me lol. So I thought of you when I (view spoiler)[read that part about beating the horse, ugh. I hated it how it seemed like it ended up as a free for all. I think the little boy was his conscious but more of a sickened, helpless bystander, it gave me the chills. Do you think his father not wanting to do anything about it and saying it wasn't their business, do you think that it was perhaps a bit of a projection of his guilt? part of the rationalization that is going on in his psyche? So, my next question, do you think that Dostoyevsky wrote in this seemingly dramatic style out of his own wanting to "push" the drama or do you think Russians were at the time rather flourish in their behavior and mannerisms? I wondered about that the first time I read it. I know that he had difficulties in his life, he was not a dandy and he spent 8 years of exile with hard labor in a prison camp in Siberia. I am sure that his experiences shaped his books. (hide spoiler)]
Some more points to think about and chew on. I'll see how far I get today. Happy reading you all!

[Nancy]

Srividya wrote: "I quite agree with Karen here. Poverty is a reality for us in India as well, where we have families who live in small, cramped spaces, often on the streets itself, where they have created their own temporary shelter. Some come to bigger cities from villages, seeking better fortunes, because of the horrible conditions back home. Whil..."

It really saddens me to know that people are forced to live like this. I know in the UK we are so privileged (although it doesn't stop people complaining!)

[Margaret]

@Srividya: I know a couple that lives in our small community that the husband is a world re-known musician who travels extensively. India is one of their favorite countries to spend time in. They have told me that yes, there is abject poverty but the people are so spiritual and they make up with richness and beauty of who they are. I hope I expressed that well enough, I enjoyed hearing about their observations.

Ah...poverty is real even here in the US, in it's extremes, I think of the homeless. They are so overlooked and passed by with caution and disgust. Then there are areas in which Native Americans live in horrible conditions but with the addition of addictions and hopelessness. I remember visiting my brother in North Carolina and we drove through a seemingly rural area just outside of Winston-Salem where there was a African American neighborhood where I think I saw one of the worst poverty conditions ever.
What a shame.... the 'have nots' struggle for basic survival and the 'haves' struggle for even more "stuff"!

Nice conversation ladies, I think for some reason I didn't see all your comments until just now.

[Amanda]

Margaret wrote: "What a shame.... the 'have nots' struggle for basic survival and the 'haves' struggle for even more "stuff"!"

So true!

[Amanda]

Part 4.5 on the audio (I'm not sure of the chapters)
(view spoiler)[
Wow. That was very intense! I think the audio makes it even more so because the narrator adds a lot of emotion and anxiety to his reading.
It's strange how the author gets you emotionally connected to a character who is doing a horrible thing. I don't want him to get away with the murder, obviously, but at the same time I was white-knuckling it during the scene when he's waiting behind the door for the two men to leave and find the porter. I was urging him on. "Go! Run!"
(hide spoiler)]

I'm hooked! I'm really glad you convinced me to read this one, Mom.

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "Part 4.5 on the audio (I'm not sure of the chapters)

Wow. That was very intense! I think the audio makes it even more so because the narrator adds a lot of emotion and anxiety to his reading.
It..."

I am so glad! I know exactly what you mean (view spoiler)[I was the same way, hoping that he wouldn't be seen, to clean up the mess, the evidence by golly! weird how good ole Dostoyevsky gets the reader to become emotionally in cohoots with a murderer! (hide spoiler)]

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Margaret wrote: "Nice conversation ladies, I think for some reason I didn't see all your comments until just now..."


It happens sometimes, not all GR notifications come through!

That's true that there is still abject poverty in countries you may not expect.... Back in 2000 I lived in Toronto, Canada ; and one weekend we drove down to Detroit for a baseball game. I was horrified by what I saw. I just couldn't believe that in the US, which is one of the most privileged countries in the world, people were living in such squalid circumstances. It does make you grateful for a clean place to live in with sanitary conditions.

[Amanda]

Karen wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Nice conversation ladies, I think for some reason I didn't see all your comments until just now..."


It happens sometimes, not all GR notifications come through!

That's true that..."

It's horrifying to see the differences between living situations here.
I went to San Francisco once on a trip and saw purses being sold for $200-$300, and yet there were homeless people on the street right outside the store. Sometimes the police are called to make them move because people don't want to see them and feel guilty when they go shopping.

[Amanda]

I'm halfway through part 6 on the audiobook and (view spoiler)[ how do these people not see that Raskolnikov is acting so strangely? At least the doctor is suspicious. (hide spoiler)]

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Part 6?! Holy cow you're almost finished. I thought I was doing pretty well with getting through this one too :o

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Amanda wrote: "Sometimes the police are called to make them move because people don't want to see them and feel guilty when they go shopping.
..."

That is pretty sickening

[Amanda]

Karen wrote: "Part 6?! Holy cow you're almost finished. I thought I was doing pretty well with getting through this one too :o"

I'm still less than halfway, though. My version has 20 parts.
I just can't put it down. I'm so interested and can't wait to see what happens next :).

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "I'm halfway through part 6 on the audiobook and [spoilers removed]"

Oh my Part 6! you have been ripping roaring reading! I am on Part 2! chapter 4 (view spoiler)[so, I am loving this, I think that the fact that they aren't noticing is because people are so oblivious and I think the juxtaposition of using that simple fact in the story creates tension in the story (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "Karen wrote: "Part 6?! Holy cow you're almost finished. I thought I was doing pretty well with getting through this one too :o"

I'm still less than halfway, though. My version has 20 parts.
I jus..."

Oh, the light bulb came on! You are using the part 6 on the audio, of course! I only know where I am in the book as well because I am trying to stop at sections that I can then chart it for those who are reading. I have your book so you can't do that. hehe, now I've got it. I am almost done with Part 5 Audio version. :) but....Part II chapter 4 in the book itself, lol

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Oh.... ok now I see.... my part numbers are referring to the book part numbers. I just finished part 3 of the book ;) which is 51%

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Ok, so it was safe to read your spoilers which I have now done.
yes I absolutely agree Amanda, that was very intense that scene!! And he is acing a bit suspicious ;)

[Srividya]

For a minute I was scared and even considered fainting seeing your speed Amanda and was totally confused by all the later remarks. It took me some time to understand! *sigh early morning dopiness at work here, time to get some coffee in*

Am in Part II Chap 1 again as I had skimmed through the earlier section but I remember reading this one as well...so will just skim a little more to see where exactly I had stopped earlier!

Amanda - (view spoiler)[That was one intense moment and my heart was in my mouth while reading it and all the time I was praying that he could get out of the situation! I believe the author is a genius for writing such a tale where you would want to side with a murderer! I am totally amazed with the gripping narration (hide spoiler)]

Margaret - You said it perfectly! The poor in India have a sense of contentment, which the rich or those in the middle class don't. They are poor, they definitely don't have much but will always smile and share whatever little they have with complete joy and abundance, a quality, which sadly those who have, totally lack!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Part 3 ; 51%

So I was a little surprised (view spoiler)[ to discover he has a family, and also that he was given such a large amount of money. Up until this point I had much more empathy for his circumstances, but then it seemed like he wasn't as desperate as I had originally thought!
As this part goes on thought, it does become clear that they don't have any money and we can only assume he gave all that money to the widow out of sheer guilt.
What an emotional ride Dostoyevsky takes us on!

Oh and the part with the "interview" with the policeman... another moment of gripping suspense. As a reader I'm not sure now if I want him caught or not :o

And the dreams continue which shows how unwell and full of... guilt? (doesn't seem to be remorse).. he really is. (hide spoiler)]

One of my favourite lines from this part is where they describe the mother. I had to laugh as I'm not far off that age myself:
"Although Pulcheria Alexandrovna was forty-three, her face still retained traces of her former beauty; she looked much younger than her age,..."

[Amanda]

I can only go by the parts on my audiobook because *ahem* someone has my paper copy.
;)

[Amanda]

Karen wrote: "One of my favourite lines from this part is where they describe the mother. I had to laugh as I'm not far off that age myself:."

LOL! Well, in that time period and with that hard living people probably aged quite a bit faster.

[Amanda]

Srividya wrote: "The poor in India have a sense of contentment, which the rich or those in the middle class don't. They are poor, they definitely don't have much but will always smile and share whatever little they have with complete joy and abundance, a quality, which sadly those who have, totally lack! "

I saw a documentary not long ago (I think it was called 'Happy') and they interviewed a man from India. He lived with all of his family, including extended family, in a very small shack with a tarp for a wall. He was so happy and said that he absolutely loved his life. You could see in his eyes that it was true :).

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Amanda wrote: "Karen wrote: "One of my favourite lines from this part is where they describe the mother. I had to laugh as I'm not far off that age myself:."

LOL! Well, in that time period and with that hard li..."

Indeed! And Russia's average life span is still quite low. Average is 70 years, although when I was there we were told that in the rural areas it is more like 55/60 years

[Margaret]

Karen wrote: "Oh.... ok now I see.... my part numbers are referring to the book part numbers. I just finished part 3 of the book ;) which is 51%"

so, you are ahead of Amanda and I, isn't it great though! I love it.

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "I can only go by the parts on my audiobook because *ahem* someone has my paper copy.
;)"

ahem....yes I do! lol

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "Srividya wrote: "The poor in India have a sense of contentment, which the rich or those in the middle class don't. They are poor, they definitely don't have much but will always smile and share wha..."

Oh! I remember watching that documentary, it was good.

[Margaret]

Karen wrote: "Amanda wrote: "Karen wrote: "One of my favourite lines from this part is where they describe the mother. I had to laugh as I'm not far off that age myself:."

LOL! Well, in that time period and wi..."

thank goodness that I am not in Russia, I am in rural No. Calif. and I am 55! If I was in Russia I would have tops perhaps 5 more years?! ugh....life must be hard there, I didn't mean to be flippant :( life in many areas of the world is hard, I feel very fortunate.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I understand :)
Yes alcoholism is a big issue there and kills, particularly men, very early. I find it fascinating as it skews their demographics, and sad that it continues today

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Part 4, end of chapter 4

This reads so much like an old radio serial. I love it. Gosh the end of this chapter...(view spoiler)[ I absolutely did not see that coming! Firstly the potential for him to tell Sonia, and then Svidrigailov listening from next door! Eek! And I just love love love the end of this chapter:
The conversation had struck him as interesting and remarkable, and he had greatly enjoyed it - so much so that he brought a chair that he might not in the future, tomorrow, for instance, have to endure the inconvenience of standing a whole hour, but might listen in comfort."
Ha! Love it! (hide spoiler)]
Ok, on to finish the rest of this part

[Margaret]

Karen wrote: "Part 4, end of chapter 4

This reads so much like an old radio serial. I love it. Gosh the end of this chapter... I absolutely did not see that coming! Firstly the potential for him to tell Sonia, ..."

you are right, it does read like an old radio serial....you should get a load of the audio that Amanda and I are listening to....it gives you the chills and your mind wants to race forward because the narrator brings so much emotion and mysteriousness to the book. Man....so good :)

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I agree! I have the recorded books audio narrated by George Guidall who does quite a good job! I also downloaded the kindle version so I swap between the two, but predominantly I am listening :)

[Amanda]

Margaret wrote: "Karen wrote: "Part 4, end of chapter 4

This reads so much like an old radio serial. I love it. Gosh the end of this chapter... I absolutely did not see that coming! Firstly the potential for him t..."

Yes, our narrator, Anthony Heald, is great. I'll have to try the George Guidall version.

BTW, Anthony Heald also narrates The Red Badge of Courage!

[Nancy]

Karen wrote: "Indeed! And Russia's average life span is still quite low. Average is 70 years, although when I was there we were told that in the rural areas it is more like 55/60 years ..."

This is true, due mainly to the terrible food and the fact that so many people drink vodka like its water (in fact the word 'vodka' actually means 'little water' in Russian)

I'm still only in Part 1 - really enjoying it though. It's hard not to read everyone's spoilers!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

I looked up the origins of this book:

It was first published in the literary journal The Russian Messenger in twelve monthly installments during 1866.

I guess that's why it reads like a radio serial! ;)

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "Margaret wrote: "Karen wrote: "Part 4, end of chapter 4

This reads so much like an old radio serial. I love it. Gosh the end of this chapter... I absolutely did not see that coming! Firstly the po..."

Really he does? I need to re-read it The Red Badge of Courage and get the audio! But....months ahead not now. :P

[Margaret]

NancyHelen wrote: "Karen wrote: "Indeed! And Russia's average life span is still quite low. Average is 70 years, although when I was there we were told that in the rural areas it is more like 55/60 years ..."

This i..."

Nancy, why don't you go ahead and post your thoughts or perceptions where you are at, I love discussing books, I don't mind going back in the book. I am sure everyone else feels the same way. I picture this as a book meeting where we are all sitting and obviously we talk all over the place. Of course not beyond where we all haven't read yet. Since I have already read it, I can cheat lol.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Part 4 65%

I think the tension built up in this section was great in two ways. Firstly the end of chapter 4 (as per my spoiler above and then also at the end of the part with (view spoiler)[ the interrogation. I really did think he was going to crack, and the entrance of Nikolai is all that saved him. What a clever Police Officer. Although he is right and doing his job, I still don't like him! (hide spoiler)]

[Margaret]

Karen wrote: "I looked up the origins of this book:

It was first published in the literary journal The Russian Messenger in twelve monthly installments during 1866.

I guess that's why it reads like a radio se..."

I didn't know that! Of course.....I love little tid bits of facts like that.

[Amanda]

So today I ran across this image (view spoiler)[

(hide spoiler)]
After reading some of Crime and Punishment I can say that yes, he probably does address all of your concerns.

Anyone know which movie this is from? I love classic movies and now I love Dostoyevsky.

[Amanda]

Karen wrote: "I looked up the origins of this book:

It was first published in the literary journal The Russian Messenger in twelve monthly installments during 1866.

I guess that's why it reads like a radio se..."

That's really interesting! I would never have guessed.

[Margaret]

Amanda wrote: "So today I ran across this image


After reading some of Crime and Punishment I can say that yes, he probably does address all of your concerns.

Anyone know which movie this is from? I love..."

That is a young Robert Mitchum I think in the background, at least it looks like him with that jaw line, now I am curious. I might try to research that one. And I agree, he does answer all your concerns, or either adds to them!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Part 5

I'm determined to get through this book this weekend :D

So the scene (view spoiler)[ where Sonia was accused of taking the 100 rouble note had me on the edge of my seat! I was cooking my son's lunch at the time listening and I had to stop what I was doing and just listen.

And then when Svidrigailov talks about someone being a 'louse'. Even though we know he had been listening, my stomach still dropped. Isn't that silly?
(hide spoiler)]

I don't know that I have ever read a book of this size that is able to keep the tension and suspense so well. No wonder it is still such a popular book

[Margaret]

Karen wrote: "Part 5

I'm determined to get through this book this weekend :D

So the scene where Sonia was accused of taking the 100 rouble note had me on the edge of my seat! I was cooking my son's lunch at t..."

Isn't it great? I think that it is pure genius in how he manage to write such a beautiful and suspenseful book. Dostoyevsky had an interesting life, one marred with hardships and difficulty from the beginning to the end. It stays interesting clear the way through, at least in my humble opinion.