The Liberal Politics & Current Events Book Club discussion
Reality-Based Chat. Speak!
While I agree with Bernie Sanders about income disparity, I still find it impossible to envision him winning a general election for President. I hope that the Democrats choose a candidate who can get elected. In 1972, we chose George McGovern and we got another four years of Nixon. I hope we'd have learned our lesson from that.
And in 1968, the left trashed Hubert Humphrey and we got the first 4 years of Richard Nixon. I'm on Lisa's side on this issue. But I add: no president can do it all. All elections, at all levels, are important.
Jimmy wrote: "We just had a local Republican man here in NH call Annie Kuster, my Congresswoman, "ugly." Can anyone ever recall an incident when a man running for office was called ugly?"I think Donald is ugly. Just for the record.
People generally don't comment on men's physical appearance or clothes. These are comments only made about women. Sexism is still out there in force.
I'm in general agreement about the Dems picking an electable candidate, but have a slightly different perspective: the left trashed Humphry, the moderates undercut McGovern, splinters abandoned Gore. The pattern I'm seeing isn't that a boring moderate will win (Romney would have been a landslide), but that the Dems haven't figured out how to have a fair primary and then reunite behind the winner. So in my view, Sanders and Hillary should both run, we should support who we believe in, but not divide over that opinion -- and put pressure on the candidate you support to run a campaign that is the complete opposite of the current Republican brawl.
I think this thread began with a discussion of the differences in the way male and female politicians are treated when discussing looks. I pointed out then that New Jersey governor and current Republican candidate for President Chris Christie has been called "fat" quite often. On the other hand, I also remember that John Edwards, a 50-something very successful lawyer, North Carolina Senator, and Democratic nominee for Vice President was called "cute" and a Ken doll in 2004. Yet when Obama suggested that the California female attorney general was the best looking, he was criticized. So it might be that we don't notice when men's looks (Republicans Scott Brown and Paul Ryan have also been called good looking) are discussed. It's certainly not politically correct for women's looks (Sarah Palin seemed to be an exception) to be discussed.
That's true Mary. Those comments about men's appearances were made. Maybe people just aren't that interested. They seem to have hung on every outfit that Michelle Obama wore though. I don't think that physical appearance should be a factor in how people decide to vote. Nevertheless, it's the first thing people see and it seems to influence how people vote.
Lisa, I was just watching coverage of the Pope's arrival, and some jerk commenting on ABC pointed out that he had gained weight. I said, "Really? You're going to talk about the Pope's weight?" But I don't think it bothers most people as much when a man's appearance is discussed, probably because women have always been judged by their appearance more than men, and the standards for female beauty are much higher than those for males, which is why we can have someone like fat, ugly Rush Limbaugh criticizing Michelle Obama or Monica Lewinsky. I don't agree with much that Trump says, but he's right to say that people make fun of his hair. As a black woman, I don't want to be treated better than a white man; I want to be treated as well. So if we can ridicule Trump's cotton candy hair (and I do), we should be able to ridicule my salt-and-pepper, kinky Afro. Ideally, we will focus on more important qualities than a Presidential candidate's looks, but you're right that looks are the first thing we see, and they affect how we view each other.
It's a visceral reaction that people can't control. Nevertheless, if we're aware of it, we can try not to let it affect how we make decisions.
Right, Lisa. We have to recognize that we are affected by physical appearance, voice quality, posture, and fashion, as well as race, gender, and regional accent (I initially didn't like Edwards because of his accent) and try to look beyond the surface of things. Carly turns me off because of her mean demeanor, but if she shared my beliefs, I would not hesitate to vote for her, despite her evil facial expression. On the other hand, soft-spoken, sweet-looking Ben Carson could never get my vote because he's at least as crazy as Huckabee and Trump.
Your issue with Edwards and his southern accent reminds me of when my aunt went for group hypnosis at a hospital to help her lose weight. It was an 8 week program. Each week after the session, she had an uncontrollable urge to binge eat. She couldn't stand the hypnotist's voice because he had a thick Arab accent. Why didn't she stop going when she saw he had that affect on her? I don't know. Anyway, it was superficial but we're affected by those things all the time.
Right. And sometimes we don't even know why we respond to voices or faces the way we do. I at least knew that my reaction to the Southern accent resulted from having lived in the South during the Jim Crow period. I, of course, also knew that many Southerners, including Edwards, Jimmy Carter, and Bill Clinton, were less racist than many whites from New England, the Midwest, and California, but I was so tired of that accent after eight years of Bill Clinton and another almost eight years of Bush's fake Texas accent (he went to high school and college in New England; he also summered in Maine) that I couldn't stand listening to Edwards talk during those 2004 debates.
Trump is ugly to the bone, a dangerous clown. Re propaganda, we're about to see the biggest tsunami of political propaganda EVER, between now and the election. The result of a successful propaganda campaign is orchestrated ignorance. My book, AD NAUSEAM: HOW ADVERTISING AND PUBLIC RELATIONS CHANGED EVERYTHING starts with the argument that we live in a Propaganda Society that is invisible to most citizens. AD NAUSEAM got a positive review in Kirkus Reviews: "In this smoldering tract a psychologist deconstructs contemporary advertising...highly readable...An illumination and critique of a commercial culture that distorts reality for gain." Propaganda only works when it's "invisible" to the propagandized, and I hope my book gets used in classrooms to teach people how to recognize propaganda and other psychotechnologies of influence, such as strategic metaphor, spin, heuristics and behavior modification. I'm convinced that democracy can't survive on a steady diet of propaganda.
I hope your book gets widely read. We live in the age of the soundbite and the hype. So much propaganda is subliminal. We are propagandized all the time. It depends on how the word is used. The problem comes when the fine line between propaganda and brain washing is crossed.
Your book sounds interesting, Jeff. I'll sample it on Amazon. I thought Obama did a good job of calling out Trump on "60 Minutes" last night. He said Trump is a reality television star who loves attention and knows how to get it. He also said that Trump won't be President. I think that we are less likely to be fooled by advertisers, politicians, and the news media if we know what our biases are.
Did anyone else watch the Republicans debate last night? I couldn't watch the whole thing, but I saw the part where David Muir claimed he was asking about race. At last, I thought, and was happy that he addressed his question to Trump. But instead of asking Trump about the birther nonsense in 2011-12, about his anti-Mexican and anti-Muslim comments, about the white supremacists who are supporting him, or more broadly about the attempt to suppress the votes for blacks and browns. Instead he asked about policing. It was disgusting.
I watched part of one debate and thought it was an absurd format for choosing a president so I turned it off after a short while. I didn't watch any of the others. What's everyone's opinion about either Hillary's or Bernie Sanders' electability in a general election?
Lisa, I think we are in trouble if they have a Rubio-Kasich ticket. Bernie or Hillary can definitely beat Cruz or Trump, and Hillary would also absolutely beat Bush.
It's getting scary especially the thought of Trump having his finger on the nuclear button.
I used to think that Sanders was not electable, but my opinion is changing. Hillary is the Establishment candidate. I'd hate to see her representing the Establishment against Trump representing the challenge to the Establishment. In that battle, I think the Establishment is in big trouble, and well should be. I'd like to think we'd have a choice between Trump's National Socialist agenda and Sanders' Democratic Socialist agenda. That way, there would be a credible Left alternative to Trump's fascism. As for the Wall Street Establishment, I have to agree with the young people, that its time has passed.
I still can't decide which one to vote for. Now that it looks like Trump may in fact be the nominee, I'm very scared. I see him using all the same tactics as Joseph McCarthy and Hitler and feel that he must be defeated. I just can't decide which one Hillary or Bernie has the better chance to do that.
Now that Trump has the chance to win the Republican nomination, I am still scared. He is using all of Hitler's tactics to rise to power. In the beginning, many people didn't take Hitler seriously finding him too comical. We have to learn from history and not make the same mistake twice. I still haven't decided who has a better chance of winning a general election but I need to make a choice soon. The Illinois primary is coming up soon. What are all your takes on the situation at this point?
Lisa wrote: "Now that Trump has the chance to win the Republican nomination, I am still scared. He is using all of Hitler's tactics to rise to power. In the beginning, many people didn't take Hitler seriously f..."I'm rooting for Bernie. Hillary is an Establishment candidate representing the interests of her Big Capital backers. She's talking about cutting taxes for corporations blah blah blah. She's for the status quo. Bernie's for a revolution. Either would be way better than Trump. I just want someone to vote FOR not just against.
Given the political situation, that may be a luxury we can't afford this time. I'm prepared to campaign like crazy and vote for whichever Democrat becomes the nominee.
Lisa wrote: "Given the political situation, that may be a luxury we can't afford this time. I'm prepared to campaign like crazy and vote for whichever Democrat becomes the nominee."Yeah, I get that. Things could get really ugly really fast.
It still baffles me why (apparent) voters, who are not all embittered cranks, fall so easily for some bloviating developer, at once a casino impresario (with that gambler's swagger) and "reality" TV host. And now he is just a confidence man working over the shills.Why do they imagine without examination that Trump cares about them having better lives due to his being elected to lead the nation? Is it the TV show? Strong man? Garbage, he had weak knees and got out of war duty just like Cheney did as a young man. Methinks his slogan is more like Make America Hate Again. Most of the so-called pundit class talk of how he brings so many "new voters" into the democratic process. My bet is that a lot of those voters, many of whom are at his events, are coming into the process expressly to vote against him, ready to make him the Biggest Loser.
In 1968, as a young voter I could not vote either D or R. I would have voted for Pat Paulsen the protest candidate had I the energy. In '72 I thought McGovern was the best candidate ever. Still do. Bernie taps into that for young people today. Funny thing, though, about being a young voter. You don't realize that the power of one executive, the POTUS, does not make laws change that would turn the capitalist system upside down. And that S word socialism would not fly. Nor can a wand be waved that has Mexico building a Great Wall of China on their border with the US.
So forget about those perceived negatives about HRC. A long record of achievement meant she would be pursued mercilessly and ceaselessly in hopes of bringing her down. They keep trying and they always will. Its simple. They're Republicans. No one likes losing. They are the wily coyote that never quite gets the roadrunner. Whitewater? Beep-beep. Monica? No way. Benghazi? Hah! 3/4 of the Republican congress never heard of the place 5 years ago. How about 11 hours being grilled by these twerps with law degrees and no manners.
This will be the first time in my life I campaign for anybody. It just happens she will do a far better job as President than any Republican has done in a hundred years.
Hi Folks, It feels like it's been a while since I've heard from anyone in this group and I miss the discussion. With more of the primary results in, the situation still seems quite precarious. I don't know whether to be more afraid of Trump or Cruz although I don't think Cruz has the charisma to be able to win a general election against either Democrat. Trump's loyal mesmerized followers frighten me more than Trump himself does. What is everyone's take on this election at this point in time?
Lisa, it looks like Hillary has the Democratic nomination, but I'm not sure what's going to happen with the Republicans. Hillary should be able to beat either Cruz or Trump in November, but then Bush, Rubio, or Walker should have beaten them too, and they didn't, so who knows what's going to happen. I liked the idea that one man floated that Trump doesn't really want to be President or to lose in November so that he actually hopes to lose at the convention so that he can claim that the election was stolen from him, and he would have won if the Republicans weren't so dirty, blah, blah.
That's an interesting theory about Trump, Mary. I wonder if he has enough sense to know he has no qualifications to be President and is just doing this as some kind of publicity stunt for a business venture of some kind.
I think he's too narcissistic to realize that he's not qualified to be President, Lisa, but he has enough sense to know that it's a hard job and that he will be criticized as President. He sees how much heat he's taking just running for President. He doesn't really want to do the job; he just wants the prestige and attention that the President gets.
I hope you're right. I see him as using all the same campaign tactics as Hitler and am very afraid of his becoming president. I think he would put his political opponents in prison and disappear a lot of them.
I wouldn't put anything past Trump, Lisa, but he knows that the President's powers are limited, even though he keeps telling the low-information voter that he will take care of everything if they just elect him. He can't even control the RNC, so he won't be able to put his political opponents in prison or get rid of them. Of course, the other thing about Trump is that he wants people to love him, so he's more likely to try to make nice with Cruz and Clinton. In fact, he and Clinton used to be friends, and their daughters are apparently still friends.
I wasn't thinking so much of Clinton and Cruz but of all the many less famous people who have protested at his rallies and been summarily and in some cases, forcibly ejected.
Hi All, Are you planning to watch the Republican Convention on TV? How many are planning to go to Cleveland to demonstrate against Donald Trump? I'll be too busy with my daughter and grandchildren visiting to do any of it. Sadly, my daughter has become an arch conservative and I get sick to my stomach arguing with her so I try to avoid it. I hope some of you can give me period updates about what's going on.
I'll watch the convention, Lisa, but I'm obviously not going since I'm the one who doesn't like to travel. I don't think I'd go anyway even if I liked to travel because it's going to be dangerous. People are shooting into crowds, and I want to live a few more years. I assume you know that Trump is supposed to have picked Pence for his VP candidate. He postponed the announcement, not because he cares about what happened in France but because he wants more attention when he makes the announcement. I just bought a book about why Donald Trump is an asshole. I can't wait to read it.
I wouldn't go even if I could because I don't see how it would help the cause of the Democrats. I did hear about Pence. Enjoy reading that book, Mary. You can give us all a report.
I pity the cops and Secret Service, Lisa. I didn't realize that Ohio has a law that allows people to openly carry guns. So far the book about Assholes is interesting but not that enlightening. I think I can provide a better definition of "Assholes." I guess I'll make that my next blog post in a couple of weeks.
The Ohio law allowing people to openly carry arms sounds like an invitation to gun violence. I hope there isn't any, but I'm not optimistic.
Hi Everyone, I just came back from a trip to Scandinavia where I saw people taxed highly to pay for a fabulous social safety net. It was great having a vacation from seeing homelessness and poverty. I wish that America could emulate some of their better ideas. With Trump narrowing Hillary's lead in the polls, however, I fear that we may be seeing the exact opposite very soon. How do you all view the latest development re: Hillary's health? I for one am terrified imagining a Trump presidency.
Lisa wrote: "Hi Everyone, I just came back from a trip to Scandinavia where I saw people taxed highly to pay for a fabulous social safety net. It was great having a vacation from seeing homelessness and poverty..."Dick Cheney had a serious heart condition and that didn't stop him. Maybe because he was a man? Perhaps all candidates should be required to report recent use of antibiotics, if infections are a major issue now,
Trump hasn't disclosed any health information either.
Lisa wrote: "Trump hasn't disclosed any health information either."I know. We're waiting. Maybe we'll see them the same time he releases his tax returns.
I find it very disturbing that this election is even close. Trump is so... yes, I'll say it...deplorable, in so many flagrant ways, this election should be a slam-dunk for Hillary. But it isn't. Even considering the mistakes she's made, they are small compared to Trump's endless monstrosities and dangerous rhetoric. Why do you think this is so?
Hi All, I was wondering if the election 'chat' had moved to another place after not hearing of comments through my email address for so long. Meredith, we are all pretty darn sick of the election process, but it will be over. So many people were already sick of it a year ago. Actually, it will only be over after Nov 8 until the new president is sworn in...then it will restart for the midterm election in 2018 and on and on and on...Part of Trump's vote comes from folks who just can't stand politics and refuse to be involved with it, shall I say 'intellectually' if I use the term very loosely. They want to believe like we all do that some magical person will come along to improve their own perception of what life should be. Maybe that is human nature and why dictatorial governments have thrived since...when? The Trump flock learned about him from his decades of mostly tabloid worthy personal behavior, accentuated by his performance as a reality TV star. Since they are not involved with the process of choosing someone based on past government service, the outsider looks good. Just saying "businessman" is enough to get their vote. Scrape the surface of this, and they say he "tells it like it is." And how is it? He smiles and sneers, tells you how great he is rarely using words more than 10 letters long so folks don't need to wonder what he said.
"Incredible" and "Amazing" and "Great" and "Very, very, very rich" and "Believe me" and "I can tell you this."
Norway has had a special place in my heart since I first visited as a hitchhiking 24 year old in 1970. It was then I learned that folks in Norway were respected and taken care of in their elder years and the government took responsibility for making it happen. What a surprise it was to learn this! How many years had it taken the Democratic Party to achieve Medicare in 1965? Just as in the Great Depression Social Security became law, Medicare was accomplished despite Republican opposition. They could care less if you could not afford a roof over your head, a hot meal, treatment if you became ill.....
The memoir I wrote a couple years ago talks about the Trump I knew and went to school with. He was OK then. But in the book I tried my best to be as neutral as I could even though I had little but contempt for him and the person I saw him become. It would have been great if he had lived his life and comported himself in a way to make one proud to know him, but that is not the case. Here is a place I can admit freely my embarrassment of knowing him in that simpler time.
Did everyone hear the latest? Trump is going to discuss his health report on Dr. Oz tomorrow (on a show taped today). Earlier today they were saying on MSNBC that he had changed his mind about that. Then I guess after the show was taped, they said he discussed his health with Oz, but the same doctor who wrote that ridiculous "Trump will be the healthiest person to become President" letter is also the one who did the physical. That guy is a crack. Trump is all about getting the maximum amount of attention, so naturally he is going to reveal his medical report on a television show. I suspect the reason he didn't jump more on the "Hillary is sick" story is not because he felt bad for her and decided not to take advantage of her illness but because he didn't want people to be talking about her more than they were about him.But we shouldn't worry about the tightening polls when Trump is having trouble winning Georgia and Arizona. At one point, he was even having trouble in Texas. The economic news favors us, Obama's approval rating is 58%, and he's having a good time on the campaign trail. Even Colin Powell's hacked e-mails help us because Colin (no surprise) can't stand Trump. My greatest fear right now after seeing Rick Perry on one of my favorite television shows, "Dancing with the Stars," is that Trump will show up there in the spring, and I will finally have to stop watching.
Oh, a couple of other points: I had just commented yesterday in another social media forum about how we hadn't seen or heard from Melania since the plagiarized speech (I suspect Trump did that and blamed the friend) debacle when some letter about her immigration status was published today. Why aren't people talking about how little time she spends on the campaign trail compared to his daughter, who (like Chelsea) has a new baby? I agree with everything you've said about the unfair media coverage because I've said much more. What liberal media? Even some of the media folks (Lawrence O'Donnell, Joy Reid) are
starting to criticize the coverage. And others (Newsweek) are finally starting to expose Trump's shady business deals and his lack of charitable contributions. I can't wait for November either, and I hope Hillary wins big. I'll be disappointed if Trump wins Alabama and Mississippi. He can have Sarah Palin's Alaska, but that's it.
No, Mary, not even Alaska! I'm sure there all plenty of good people up there who can't stand either Palin or Trump. Being a Yankee transplant that wound up in South Carolina, I am not writing off this state, either. The entire ticket of Repubs should lose "bigly", as their toast-master likes to say. The other candidates should have insisted that Trump be muzzled and made to conform to norms, not allowing him get away with name calling and otherwise disrupting order. The party should be punished. Let their so-called base go back to wherever they came from.
I wish that I shared your optimism. Since the Brexit vote, I've been really worried that the forces of bigotry could win. As for Melania Trump, the only time we've heard from her was at the obligatory appearance at the Republican Convention. I think Trump is hiding her because either she'd sound like an idiot or he doesn't want people to be reminded that his wife is an immigrant when he's made such a stand against immigration.
I saw some of Hillary's speech in North Carolina, and I think she did a good job of addressing the lack of transparency dig (forty years of tax documents revealed, much more about her health than Trump revealed). I also liked her line about enjoying the service part more than the public part of "public service." I think it's a great line because it contrasts perfectly to Trump. He wants the public without the service. If he somehow managed to win (and what the hell is wrong with Ohio and Florida?), Pence and other real politicians would take care of all of the service while Trump would just have news conferences and rallies. But my favorite scene from yesterday was when that black female preacher in Flint interrupted Trump's attack on Hillary to tell him she didn't invite him to her church to give a political speech. He meekly and quietly said, "Okay." Then, of course, later Mr. Tough Guy tried to claim that she was nervous and shaking. He was the one who seemed to be shaking. I guess Omarosa wasn't there to protect him. Like the late Dr. King, I have a dream. In my dream, I join a posse of tough black women--the mayor of Flint, that preacher, Michelle Obama, Loretta Lynch, maybe Serena and Venus Williams--and we run Trump right out of the country. We put him on a boat back to Scotland, his mother's homeland. I hope some of the comedians make fun of that scene with the black preacher. We need to get it through his ignorant, bigoted supporters' heads that Trump is not strong; he's a wimp, a bully, who talks big but wouldn't fight in Vietnam, who got his little feelings hurt when Megyn Kelly was mean to him, and acted like a ten-year-old boy chastised by his mama when the black preacher called him out.
Still, Robert, I think we can let him have Alaska. It's one of our least populated states, and (according to Palin), it's nearer to Russia than it is to any of the other 49 states. He deserves Alaska. Maybe he should move there if he won't go back to Scotland or to Germany (where his paternal grandparents were born). Or maybe he should just move to Russia and hang out with his pal Putin.
The Liberal Politics & Current Events Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
A Gift Upon the Shore (other topics)Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces (other topics)
Drift (other topics)
Drift (other topics)
What Hath God Wrought: The Transformation of America, 1815 - 1848 (other topics)
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According to Bill Moyers, something like $4 billion was spent on the 2014 mid-term elections. Now that Citizens United has enshrined money as free speech, we're about to see an unprecedented flood of propaganda from now until the election next year. If we don't get money, and the propaganda it pays for, out of elections, we'll continue to drift in the direction of oligarchy with each election cycle. The tax code is only as complex as it is because of decades of work by an army of corporate lawyers and lobbyists, creating loopholes that only their clients can use.
Also, I agree with Beverly's comments about "heritage" and "pride" as masks for racism and intolerance. Living in SC, I continue to read letters to The State newspaper from unreconstructed Confederates. An "I don't care if this offends you" attitude is not in the tradition of Southern hospitality, but I'm a part of the emerging New South. In retirement my wife and I are becoming more active in the SC Progressive Network.
I agree with Bernie when he says it's going to take a revolution to change things. I'm beginning to believe that it could happen, if we can confront and deflate/undermine the coming barrage of political propaganda from the far right.