10/13 Infinite Jest, Week 3

[John]

I think I get it now...so - if I understand you correctly - you're suggesting that Hal's condition during the Arizona State interview might be something he's always suffered from, but he usually takes some kind of medical treatment to help him function?

[Ami]

*The DSM-V says in order for a patient to exhibit characteristics of catatonia they must also show at least 3 signs in the following list:

stupor (i.e., no psychomotor activity; not actively relating to environment)

catalepsy (i.e., passive induction of a posture held against gravity)

waxy flexibility (i.e., slight, even resistance to positioning by examiner)

mutism (i.e., no, or very little, verbal response [exclude if known aphasia])

negativism (i.e., opposition or no response to instructions or external stimuli)

posturing (i.e., spontaneous and active maintenance of a posture against gravity)

mannerism (i.e., odd, circumstantial caricature of normal actions)

stereotypy (i.e., repetitive, abnormally frequent, non-goal-directed movements)

agitation, not influenced by external stimuli
grimacing

echolalia (i.e., mimicking another's speech)

echopraxia (i.e., mimicking another's movements)


How many from this list do you feel applied to Hal during his interview at UA? I count a few more than 3.

Has he always suffered from this condition..I can't say for sure, but I'm leaning this way for now. All I have to go on is the timeline and presented symptoms independent of illegal drug usage. There's also the similarity between the fitviavi (170) and mold Hal ate as a child (10)

Hal wrote The Emergence of Heroic Stasis in Broadcast Entertainment referenced in the interview (7) when he was only in the 7th grade, which would make him 12-13 years old. In the essay, he's divorced from stimuli and catatonic. It's supposedly subjective, so he's speaking from experience. It leads me to believe he's been experiencing bouts with catatonia from a very early age-independent of extracurricular drugs. From what I understand, Hal didn't take extracurricular drugs until YDAU...Is this correct? There's also the reference to him being "mute" by his father and his inability to speak during the interview?

The extent of his drug use, at this point (up until section 3): he's smoking everyday, but the DMZ (171), I'm not positive how often he's using.
I'm reading "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test" by Tom Wolfe about Ken Kesey and his merry pranksters...Lots of LSD and mescaline intake! If this DMZ is way more powerful than mescaline, it's no joke... I gagged at the thought of DMZ's potency while reading about it in IJ (170).

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatonia


but he usually takes some kind of medical treatment to help him function?

Would you mind giving me a section to reference for this treatment, I don't remember it? Thanks.

[John]

Ami wrote: "Would you mind giving me a section to reference for this treatment, I don't remember it? Thanks. "

I thought this was what you were talking about with the "retrograde amines". You said he has to take some kind of treatment for his "amine deficiency"?

I'll be honest Ami, your theory sounds a little out there to me...To me, the final paragraph in his essay seemed like it metaphorically applied to Hal. Not so much literally. It will be interesting to see if you are right :)

[Ami]

John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Would you mind giving me a section to reference for this treatment, I don't remember it? Thanks. "

I thought this was what you were talking about with the "retrograde amines". You said..."

Ah, got you. Well, the answer to your original question is ...Yes, I think part of his problem stems from some sort of internal issue and he's taking drugs to fire up the production of amines.

We have 75% of the book left to read, I'm sure we'll be revisiting and revising theories left and right. :)

To me, the final paragraph in his essay seemed like it metaphorically applied to Hal. Not so much literally.

Sure, but he still has to have a reference point...Do you think it's a random thought?


What did you make of the last three sentences in Guru Lyle the "forehead licker's" section?

[John]

Ami wrote: "Sure, but he still has to have a reference point...Do you think it's a random thought? "

I think he's "Catatonic and divorced from stimuli" emotionally. There is actually a huge bit about this in Week 5's reading section. He does not react to anything but just lets it all wash over him.

Basically, yeah, like he describes Lyle at the end of that section.

[Zulfiya]

Ami wrote: "After we're done reading this book and the time line is cemented, I think it would be interesting to re-read the novel in chronological order...If possible? "

Actually, randomized reading selection is one of the ways to read this novel, according to those who have already read it. In fact, I can see how this might be an option for the first time read.

[Zulfiya]

Olga wrote: "In fact, now I can see Hal as sort of based on Hamlet. His father is dead. His mother and uncle are in charge of the kingdom (ETA). Now, we don't exactly get a glimpse of how Hal feels about this situation, (unlike Hamlet, who makes a sport of whining and moaning), but we do know that Mario is definitely conflicted. We get that from his conversation with Hal, where he thinks the Moms seemed happier after himself passed. I think that part was in the reading from last week or the week before, though."

Hal is definitely Hamlet of sorts. He is not the one who drags his feet as Hamlet did before he actually chose what to do, but he is Hamlet in many other ways. In addition to the connections you mentioned in your post, there is another leading theme that unites Hamlet and The Infinite Jest - the quest to find one's father. I do not mean the physical shell, but the father a character will identify oneself with. Hamlet wanted to be on par with his father in his valor, bravery, and concept of justice. The same is with Hal and other children. The book is a search for Father, for a figurehead that you can call father, and, consequently, a part of you. It is a paternal self-identification quest, if I may say so. I think it is not accidental that we are dealing with such an unusual moniker "Himself". In the same vein, one can interpret the passage about genes and the genetic battle during Mrs. Incandenza's pregnancies and the discussion of genetic features the sons inherited.

[Ami]

Zulfiya wrote: "Olga wrote: "In fact, now I can see Hal as sort of based on Hamlet. His father is dead. His mother and uncle are in charge of the kingdom (ETA). Now, we don't exactly get a glimpse of how Hal feels..."



I remember reading about the features of the sons, but overlooked the genetic battle during Mrs. Incandenza's pregnancies, would you mind giving me the page number? Thanks.

[Zulfiya]

Let me page through, and I will let you know. It might be in the selection for week 2. I was browsing through the pages, trying to refresh my memory as I am now catching up with the group.

[Ami]

Zulfiya wrote: "Let me page through, and I will let you know. It might be in the selection for week 2. I was browsing through the pages, trying to refresh my memory as I am now catching up with the group."

I just found it, don't worry...:) It's the "all out chro-mosomatic war" (101).

[Nicola]

I'm not going to read any comments here yet as I haven't finished this section yet, but I just want to say that I was reading this on the train into work this morning and when I came across the bit about the bricklayers accident I just about ruptured something internally.

[Linda]

Nicola wrote: "I just want to say that I was reading this on the train into work this morning and when I came across the bit about the bricklayers accident I just about ruptured something internally."

Ha! Yeah, that was a great section. I could totally picture the entire scene it was described so well.

[Kaycie]

Nicola wrote: "I was reading this on the train into work this morning"

This mental image gets so much better if you are reading the huge paper copy of the book! :-)

[Nicola]

Kaycie wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I was reading this on the train into work this morning"

This mental image gets so much better if you are reading the huge paper copy of the book! :-)"

I am.

I was genuinely lol'ing and hiding my face behind the book in a semi crowded train.

[Kaycie]

Nicola wrote: "I am. "

WOAH! So awesome and so impressive! That is nearly a full gym workout everyday lugging that monster around!

[Nicola]

Kaycie wrote: "Nicola wrote: "I am. "

WOAH! So awesome and so impressive! That is nearly a full gym workout everyday lugging that monster around!"

This is the first day I've taken it to work (although I've been on jury service and taken it in there to read) as I can only read it on the train to and fro and I haven't considered it worth it. But I'm enjoying it so much now that I don't want to waste any time. I want to catch you all up and join in the current discusion.

I am really enjoying this. So much so that it might end up being one of my very very rare five star reads.

[Nicola]

1. It is also interesting to see how Wallace intertwines and knits into a complex pattern not only the separate lines, but even themes, like cross-dressing with Steely (where it was a professional necessity and Millicent's father - where is was a behavioral pattern).

Have you noticed other thematic mirroring?

Yes there is lots of it in the book, in fact I’ve gotten to the point where just about everything I read seems to come up again in a slightly different way such as Hal’s father being called ‘Himself’ and then the flashback with Jim’s father has him referencing his father as ‘Himself’. It’s everywhere.

2. Wallace also plays with different styles of writing and different discourses (resolutions, memos, reports, etc.) Is it complicating your reading experience or enriching it?

I like it, for me it adds to the sense of a crazy patchwork, different characters, different time periods, things I’m familiar with, things I’m not. It’s quite a trip.

3. What do we know about O.N.A.N and anti-O.N.A.N. at this moment in the novel?

Personally I know very little other than their simple existence. I’ve been a bit lost amongst all of the acronyms though and I’m sure I’ve missed a lot of stuff.

4. Some of the individual stand-alone stories within the novel are quite weird, quirky, and bizarre. They resemble urban legends. Which of them do you find the most unbelievable/ the most interesting?

Hmm, I’m not sure. None really stand out above their fellows as particularly spectacular, they are all part of the same great story which is slowly being woven.

5. The excurcus into the past (1960). Is it our time-line or an alternative one? Do you see how and why this story is in the novel?

I was wondering that when I read it, I didn’t see anything specific which made it a different world to our one (but I could easily have missed something) so until I see any evidence to the contrary I’ll go off the premise that that was our world BS.

Despite some bleak moments, there are also hilarious and even slapstick humorous episodes. Most of them are SCATOLOGICAL. Which of them is the most memorable? Do they make you blush? Why are the episodes often about feces, intestinal gasses, sex, and urination?

I found more of the poop jokes in the previous section actually as my notes from there will attest. There was the comment at the end of 'the turd is emerging' which conjures just a bootiful image in my mind at least :-)

As far as this section goes I found it very funny although with a dark dark current. I couldn’t believe how much I laughed at the poor bricklayer.

Virtually nothing makes me blush…

[Nicola]

I'll add some more comments soon and then I'll read what everyone has has picked up. This is such a great book, so many layers and facets; I'm really loving it.

[Nicola]

Such a number of entertaining bits in this section. The long bit with Poor Tony C and whoever the other guy was had me really thinking of A Clockwork Orange, another of those mirroring’s. Hal mentioned ‘droogies’ earlier and here it crops up again. I’ve never read more than the very start of Clockwork Orange (although it’s next on my list to read) but I know that it starts with 3 or 4 thugs (one of them is even called Dim Tim or something) and they go into a milkbar and beat up a guy. Although I think they do it for fun rather than for money.

I also know enough about Clockwork Orange to know that what happens is the narrator is taken and given a treatment of forced rehabilitation which involves him having watch images which he can’t avoid (by clamping his eyelids I think) and this really reminds me of the movie ‘Infinite Jest’ which is also something people can’t stop watching.

Speaking of Infinite Jest I have read a few of the cinematography notes, not very many but I saw Infinite Jest as one of the early ones. Apparently it was unreleased so I’m wondering what the link is with this one and the Infinite Jest that was causing such havoc earlier on in the book. Could it be the fabled Master Copy? If so why didn’t the creator suffer from the same effect? Hmmm, just something I’ll be thinking about. More might be revealed when I finally get around to reading the whole lot.

Loved the bit about the woman with the heart in her handbag and it cleared up a bit what happened to the transvestive because the language in the ‘clockwork orange’ section was not standard English so I wasn’t sure if he had been killed or no.

That section also introduced us to yet more drug addicts and a dealer very different from The Pimster (another mirror). Loved his ‘I want you to commit a crime’ bit btw, I know it’s been mentioned earlier with one of the other druggies (can’t remember which one it was off the top of my head) but I don’t think it would save his arse if he really got nailed.

In contrast to the horror of the Chinaman, The Pimster is the happy, friendly, ‘look drugs are fun!’. His ‘Urine trouble? Urine luck!’ was just priceless.

Then there was the bit with Jim and his father. Another long monoglouge but rather different from the drug users section. This was pretty horribly sad and pathetic. You start out laughing with the ‘hell kid, no pressure’ and just want to slit your wrists by the end. No wonder Jim killed himself with an upbringing like that. Not sure how he managed death by microwave oven though.

Oh well, another great bit of Infinite Jest read. I’ll read what everyone else has said and then I’ll start on the next bit.

[Nicola]

Oh, I also saw the first direct reference to Hamlet.

[Nicola]

John wrote:If I recall correctly, the lady in the Purse-snatching incident died after giving chase, no? So I'm not sure it could be Marathe's wife, ."

I can't currently check because I don't have access to the book right now, but wasn't there some quote about 'dying twice'? I can't remember the context but I remember puzzling over it when I saw it.

I did't make the connection to Marathe's wife but it's an interesting thought.

[Nicola]

John wrote: I am dying to find out what is up with the tripod in the middle of the woods! ..."

I loved that whole section. The way they were talking at cross purposes the whole time, Millicent talking about her feelings and Mario off in a world of his own. Then Millicent attempts to use sex to bridge the gap.

I see parallels with this and the bit further on about video phones (Skype :-)). How even when people can see the other 'interfacing' is often not a case of truly listening, it's more about talking and thinking that what you've got to say is obviously of great interest to the other person as well.

Not sure what it was doing there though. At first I thought it was a telescope but later I thought it was a video camera of some sort. Most peculiar. It will probably come up again somewhere though.

[Nicola]

Linda wrote: "John wrote: "So I'm not sure it could be Marathe's wife, although I will have to check the time periods - does the purse-snatching happen later than the conversaton between Marathe and Steeply?"

T..."

The timeline nature of things does add an extra element of difficulty (as if we needed any more!)

[Nicola]

Olga wrote: He knows what he's doing, that's for sure.
.."

That is definitely the impression I get. This novel reminds me of Catch-22; a book that seems like complete chaos but is actually so cleverly crafted that each step is plotted and re-plotted.

[Nicola]

Rosemary wrote:Does anyone have any clue where the bricklayer's industrial accident with a falling barrel-load of bricks fits in? ..."

I don't exactly but I presume everyone did take note of the fact that the bricklayers fate was exactly what the sweat licking guru in the tennis school said a few pages earlier - don't try to pull something that is heavier than you. A good moral for life in general perhaps?

[Nicola]

Linda wrote: I'm baffled by the "we are off the hook for liability" part of the e-mail, like there could have been blame on Interlace's part, because it sounded like the accident was fully the fault of the bricklayer..."

Wasn't that from the insurance people? I thought that the bit about being left off the hook was because he had alchohol in his bloodstream (another drug). I don't know how much .3 mg(?) is. So his insurance didn't have to pay out - they could just laugh at his accident.

[Nicola]

Carrie wrote: "I will fess up and say I am having real trouble connecting to this book. Many times I'm sitting there thinking I might be reading the back of my grocery packages, and they would be equally uninvolv..."

It sounds like this book isn't for you. I can understand struggling to follow but if you are enjoying it that little I give it away. This book wouldn'd be everyone's cup of tea that's for sure :-)

Of course this was weeks ago so... :-)

[Nicola]

Ami wrote: "Ugh, if I don't have to know another thing about the USS Milicent other than what I know, I will be a happy girl-Nothing else about her could change the image I have of her in my mind. It's funny, We've encountered some pretty scary individuals with horrendous habits, of sorts, but the majority of these characters I feel some sympathy for; I can't say I feel the same for the USS Milicent. I found her section and character to be deplorable to the core! I was so bothered by her actions, I actually had to put the book down for a bit before I picked it back up. It's just terrible when somebody of Mario's nature is taken advantage of because of their mental short comings. I hope she gets torpedoed by another USS Whatever...Just terrible and predatory! ..."

That's not something I picked up but looking back on it I can see where you got it from. I didn't view Mario as mentally deficient in a way that renders him vulnerable in this way.

[Nicola]

Ami wrote: "Mekki wrote: "This novel just seems to be getting better and better.

I'm heading off to work but i wanted to say is that i think the momento magazine article about the purse snatcher strongly rese..."

Good work remembering that bit about electrolysis, they are definitely the same person. Looks like that crazy disguise is effective. Unless it was a deliberate ploy to make it look so ridiculous, with one boob sticking up the wrong way and all that.

I forgot to mention that tie in between Orin and the Separatists. That's the first one that I've picked up.

Regarding your point about Hal himself being the anti hero, the one that just sits back and lets events happen, that would tie in with Hamlet. Now I guess I want to see if Hals uncle and his mother had something going on and if that somehow led to his fathers death. Was his 'death by microwave oven' really suicide? Enquireing minds want to know...

[Nicola]

Ami wrote: "My question to you is what is the significance of the two burly men hopped up on retrograde amines? ..."

I can't remember these guys.

[Nicola]

Ami wrote: "O.N.A.N

Good grief, can we please talk about the O.N.A.N ensign silk screened on the driver's side door of the shared vehicle belonging to Pemulis, Axford, Hal and Jim Struck -a snarling full-fron..."

I thought this was hilarious. I figure the eagle had run out of claws and could only hold the flag in its mouth :-) Maybe that's a symbol of lack of communication - it's hard to speak with something shoved in your gob.

[Nicola]

John wrote: "Ami wrote: "John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycl..."


I definitely share your views here John. I think Jim has so far revealed himself to be weak, certainly not unusual considering the physiological torture it is clear he sustained as a child.

[Nicola]

Ami wrote: Remember, Mario Sr. also refers to her as a devoted mother, and long suffering wife, and breadwinner ...Long "suffering" wife and "breadwinner" as a woman, would be emasculating in the 50s for a man like Mario Sr., no?

It could be to a man like this guy who evidently wallows in self pity and thinks the world is against him. I imagine that he knows full well that he is a loser and skunk who makes his life and everyone else's miserable because of his perceived failure to 'be great'. As he's a hibitual alcholic (by the sounds of it) he won't be earning money so his wife would have to do what she can to support the family. Seeing as they are living in a trailer park it doesn't look like she's a corporate ball breaker. His resentment and snarky comments are to me one more sad sign of just what a complete human dreg this guy is.

There are references to a house in the past, given what I've seen I'd put some money on that being lost due to his actions, yet another thing for him to feel guilt over, which in this guys case means converting into a great sob story and projected outward rage.

[Nicola]

Linda wrote: I'm now thinking back to the beginning of the book where James is interviewing Hal while in disguise. It was noted that it seemed while James was in disguise..."

Oh was he actually in disguise!? I thought it was just a literary effect to keep us in the dark. If this is true that would be a typical Infitite Jest moment, funny and heart breaking at the same time.

[Nicola]

John wrote: "I think I get it now...so - if I understand you correctly - you're suggesting that Hal's condition during the Arizona State interview might be something he's always suffered from, but he usually ta..."

Hmmmm....?

[Nicola]

Now, on to section 4!

[Linda]

Nicola wrote: "Now, on to section 4!"

Good job, Nicola! Chugging right along. :)

The part about the bricklayer and the insurance "being off the hook" (mes. 76) - I was just wondering if there was something more to the accident than what looked to be the case, meaning the guy had alcohol in his system so the accident was entirely his fault.

[Nicola]

Linda wrote: "The part about the bricklayer and the insurance "being off the hook" (mes. 76) - I was just wondering if there was something more to the accident than what looked to be the case, meaning the guy had alcohol in his system so the accident was entirely his fault.

Yes that's how I read it.

Or at least having alcholol in his system mean that they legally weren't liable. The same way a driver who has a crash with over the legal limit in his blood is not able to claim insurance regardless of the cause of the accident.

[Linda]

Nicola wrote: "Yes that's how I read it.

Or at least having alcholol in his system mean that they legally weren't liable."

I just thought it sounded fishy when they said "we are off the hook", like they had some involvement in the accident. :)

[Nicola]

Linda wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Yes that's how I read it.

Or at least having alcholol in his system mean that they legally weren't liable."

I just thought it sounded fishy when they said "we are off the hook", li..."

I just saw that as being happy that they didn't have to pay anything because the alchohol had voided their obligations, which is always a good thing for insurance companies isn't it. Take the premiums and use any excuse they can to prevent paying out?

You could be right but I don't see how they could be responsible.