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10/13 Infinite Jest, Week 3
This section was really exciting for me, as I feel like, with the introduction of Ennet House, we're finally starting to see some real signs of how the various narratives will come together. I got a big smile on my face when I realized Pemulis was the drug dealer that Kate Gompert had mentioned. Also, in the final part of this section we see the Peemster on a mission to acquire a rare mold-based narcotic substance!It's funny that you ask about how memorable the scatological humor is, because at the moment I can't recall more than one or two instances -- this could be because I'm typing first thing in the morning, though :)
(Question 1) Don't forget Poor Tony! He was a cross-dresser as well. I enjoyed that section and felt really bad for everyone involved. *side question -- did anyone catch the narrator's name in that chapter? Poor Tony and C were his partners in crime, but I don't think I ever got his name. Also - Roy Tony, Wardine's mother's boyfriend, was mentioned here!
(Question 2) I really enjoy the different narrative forms - it keeps things interesting. In one instance, DFW even used a chapter title to convey vital narrative. (specifically the manner of Himself's suicide...which, is that even possible? Don't you have to close a microwave's door for it to turn on?)
I had mixed feelings about the section on the rise and fall of Video Phones. It seemed like just a diatribe on human vanity -- but without the compassion that we see in the author's other dealings with human nature. This one just seemed kind of judgey. It was pretty funny, though. And it had one of my favorite lines in the book, when he said "it would be like someone lying and still being able to trust people." ( I may have messed up that quote, don't have the text in front of me)
I wonder if Poor Tony was the transvestite purse-snatcher? :)
(Question 5) The flashback to James' childhood is a perfect example of DFW's compassion -- I started out thinking James' father must be the most horrible person in the world, but by the end of the chapter I felt bad for him.
This novel just seems to be getting better and better.I'm heading off to work but i wanted to say is that i think the momento magazine article about the purse snatcher strongly resembles Marathe's wife and poor Tony.
The flashback to the tennis accident was an incredible scene. Haunting and seems echo back to the present with the relation of Hal and his father.
I think i'm as excited as john :)
OK, it's now the first thing in the morning for me, and I'm excited to start talking about week three. As Mekki said, this novel is getting better and better. I like the different writing styles, such as the article about the woman with the heart in her purse. I also thought that the purse snatcher was poor Tony, but it had not occurred to me that the woman could be Maranthe's wife. Also, when poor Tony and Roy Tony were mentioned, I thought that they were the same person? But maybe not. John, I don't think we ever got the narrator's name in the poor Tony and C story either. I remember wondering who was telling the story as I was reading it, so I was keeping an eye out for that info and don't remember coming upon it. That entire story started out a bit difficult to read and figure out what was going on, but as I got into the flow of the writing it got a bit easier to visualize and I became sucked into the storyline. However, the end of that storyline with the laced drug scene over the heater vent was pretty difficult for me to read. If there is one thing that makes me queasy and cringe at, it is intravenous drug use. The descriptive end to C's life was grisly.
I also enjoyed the chapter heading which was a narrative in itself. So now we know how James committed suicide. But as John mentioned, how is that method even possible?
So many different narrative styles this section. I also liked Hal's essay, but without my notes I can't remember the exact subject matter of the essay. (and still on my first cup of coffee this morning...)
I loved the rise and fall of video phones section. Perhaps it was a bit judgey, but so be it. I felt it was funny and true.
I have to admit that the flashback to James' childhood was so far the most difficult, as in a bit boring, section for me to read. I kept flipping forward to see how much of the section there was left to read. I did get the compassion this section conveyed, as his father showed up to "watch" the tennis match only because his client was there, and not because his son was playing. I don't know what exactly it was with this section that didn't draw me in as much as others have so far, I think I felt it just dragged on.
And yes, the mold-based narcotic. NOW we're getting somewhere! :)
Linda wrote: "And yes, the mold-based narcotic"I'm tellin' ya (excuse my Southern linguistic theatrics) - I am reading with you, and even slightly behind you, and I did not know that it would be somewhat significant- just a hunch because the episode was so emotionally tangible.
Zulfiya wrote: "I did not know that it would be somewhat significant- just a hunch because the episode was so emotionally tangible. "Haha, we believe you Z -- it was not such a big leap to make logically :D
If I recall correctly, the lady in the Purse-snatching incident died after giving chase, no? So I'm not sure it could be Marathe's wife, although I will have to check the time periods - does the purse-snatching happen later than the conversaton between Marathe and Steeply? Maybe the purse-heart was part of her expensive recovery?
I do agree that the 1960s flashback was boring at first, but I got engaged once the father started relaying his childhood experience.
I am dying to find out what is up with the tripod in the middle of the woods!
John wrote: "I am dying to find out what is up with the tripod in the middle of the woods!"At first I thought the tripod in the woods was just a ploy of U.S.S. Millicent's (what an unfortunate nickname, BTW) to get Mario off by himself so she could seduce him. But then after all that, there WAS a tripod! So yeah, now I'm wondering what it's all about.
John wrote: "So I'm not sure it could be Marathe's wife, although I will have to check the time periods - does the purse-snatching happen later than the conversaton between Marathe and Steeply?"That darn timeline. You know, it would have been easier if DFW would have just written the story in chronological order. :D
But yeah, she did die. Time to start flipping pages to figure this out...
One of the other interesting tidbits from this section was that we got some info about the enigmatic "Madame Psychosis" mentioned in Footnote 24.So the question is, is the entity credited in James' films meant to refer to the radio personality, or the drug DMZ? My first thought was that maybe James was synthesizing DMZ at their home somehow, and that is what young Hal consumed. That would certainly explain Avril's strangely panicked reaction in the flashback. Then, maybe the credit in the films was a reference to the drug's influence somehow?
John wrote: "My first thought was that maybe James was synthesizing DMZ at their home somehow, and that is what young Hal consumed. That would certainly explain Avril's strangely panicked reaction in the flashback. Then, maybe the credit in the films was a reference to the drug's influence somehow?"Interesting theories, John!
I wanted to mention, although some of you may already know what this means with the link that Kaycie posted (I haven't looked at it yet), that it was pointed out by Steeply that Boston is the "closest city to the Convexity, closest therefore to Quebec." So now we have The Great Concavity (in the south) and the Convexity (in the north).
It's also interesting that Maranthe calls U.S.A. "your walled nation" or "your murated nation." So....more evidence towards the idea of a giant hamster ball?? In the southern U.S. you're inside the ball (in the Great Concavity), and in the north, in Canada perhaps, then you're outside the hamster ball (the Convexity).
Finally, I had made note of part of Hal's essay: "We await, I predict, the hero of non-action, the catatonic hero, the one beyond calm, divorced from all stimulus...." This seems to go along with the "Entertainment" scene with the medical attache where once one starts watching, they fall into such a catatonic state that nothing can phase them or bring them back out of that state. But....is this really a "hero", something to strive for? I don't know if I'm trying to make connections where they don't exist, but this is what I immediately thought of when I read Hal's essay.
Hello everyone! I'm new to this board, but I'm very excited to have someone to discuss this book with. I'm a little ahead as I've been reading it for like...4 months now? But I went back to reread the beginning to participate in this discussion. Which, by the way, I definitely suggest re-reading this book after you've finished. For me, it was like beginning a new book, with all the new stuff I've noticed.Anyway, I'll try my very, very best not to spoil anything.
Linda wrote: Finally, I had made note of part of Hal's essay: "We await, I predict, the hero of non-action, the catatonic hero, the one beyond calm, divorced from all stimulus...." This seems to go along with the "Entertainment" scene with the medical attache where once one starts watching, they fall into such a catatonic state that nothing can phase them or bring them back out of that state...."
I had forgotten completely about this essay of Hal's. This is why it was so wonderful to go back. The idea of a hero of inaction, I think, we can tie back to Hamlet. In that, Hamlet was so conflicted morally about every decision, it took him the whole play to decide whether or not his Uncle was guilty, and what he should do about it. When I first read these parts, I didn't pay much attention to the Hamlet references, but now after reading all these comments from the past few weeks, I think Hamlet plays a much more important part in this story.
In fact, now I can see Hal as sort of based on Hamlet. His father is dead. His mother and uncle are in charge of the kingdom (ETA). Now, we don't exactly get a glimpse of how Hal feels about this situation, (unlike Hamlet, who makes a sport of whining and moaning), but we do know that Mario is definitely conflicted. We get that from his conversation with Hal, where he thinks the Moms seemed happier after himself passed. I think that part was in the reading from last week or the week before, though.
Last thing for this post, some of you have been keeping journals and everything while reading this. That sounds like a fun idea! But, if you're worried that it will be difficult to continue reading without the help of journals and notes, don't fear. DFW is SO VERY talented at leading the reader gently by the hand, once the book really gets going. I know it doesn't seem like it now, but the things you're supposed to remember he will bring up again, and develop them more fully. I think a lot of people get discouraged in the first quarter of the book because they think they have to memorize the information that's so casually thrown about, but you really don't have to. He knows what he's doing, that's for sure.
Olga wrote: "I'm not sure if endnote 304 is discussed here, but if I may make a suggestion, I think it's fine to read it now. I think it'll be easier to go through the evolving plot, with the background information from that endnote. "
Olga, very excited to see you here, and I love your comments!
As for the footnote 304, we have a special thread about footnotes where the participants are posting their comments and speculations. It is right here.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Th only thing is - use the spoiler HTML in the thread about footnotes and endnotes. You will see participants doing the same thing in that thread.
I hope you will enjoy discussing with us. I am uber excited to have a new member who is so willing to participate. Yay!
Zulfiya wrote: "Olga wrote: "I'm not sure if endnote 304 is discussed here, but if I may make a suggestion, I think it's fine to read it now. I think it'll be easier to go through the evolving plot, with the backg..."Oh there's a whole other thread for endnotes. Nifty!
Olga wrote: "I had forgotten completely about this essay of Hal's. This is why it was so wonderful to go back. The idea of a hero of inaction, I think, we can tie back to Hamlet."Wow, that's a great analysis Olga! So, I still have not read Hamlet, let alone read even a quickened synopsis of what happens in the play, so I would not have picked up on that. Add that to my TBR pile. :)
Also, that's good to know about the journal. I WAS afraid I was going to forget who was who and started keeping a tally of everyone. And of the timeline and such. But this last week I instead tended to jot down stuff I wanted to remember to bring up in the discussions here.
John wrote: "it had one of my favorite lines in the book, when he said "it would be like someone lying and still being able to trust people." ( I may have messed up that quote, don't have the text in front of me)"I loved that line in the videophone episode too. It was a real lightbulb moment for me, about people in general.
The actual line is: "it would be like being able both to lie and to trust other people at the same time."
I also liked the insight about there being more speaking holes than listening holes in a phone, and how we go around doing other stuff while on the phone, but never dream that the other person may not be giving us their full attention :-)
Q2. The different formats/styles are actually helping me to separate out the different times and narrators, I think.Does anyone have any clue where the bricklayer's industrial accident with a falling barrel-load of bricks fits in?
Q5. The main thing I got from the 'young Jim' section was that tennis parents are scary...!
I noticed that young Jim is described as being unnaturally large, including having a large head. Could Mario's condition be genetic? Mario also seems to have inherited James's interest in film.
Rosemary wrote: "Does anyone have any clue where the bricklayer's industrial accident with a falling barrel-load of bricks fits in?"No clue from my end, Rosemary. I'm wondering if the building he was working on was for Interlace company, the film/entertainment company? I'm baffled by the "we are off the hook for liability" part of the e-mail, like there could have been blame on Interlace's part, because it sounded like the accident was fully the fault of the bricklayer. Anyway, as appears to be DFW style for this novel, I'm assuming we will come upon this bricklayer again later in the book.
I noticed that young Jim is described as being unnaturally large, including having a large head. Could Mario's condition be genetic? Mario also seems to have inherited James's interest in film.
I had noticed that while reading also, Rosemary.
I will fess up and say I am having real trouble connecting to this book. Many times I'm sitting there thinking I might be reading the back of my grocery packages, and they would be equally uninvolving, but more educational. So I've heard a lot about page 223 being pivotal, and I guess that will be in the next section, so you have one more week, Mr. Wallace...
It's a huge help to read everyone's comments after finishing a section of the book - there is so much food for thought above as well as reminders of key points that I've already forgotten...Thank you, Olga, for your insights. I don't know much of anything about Hamlet unfortunately, so thank you for calling attention to the similarities.
I think I need to go back and skim some parts again before I tackle the next reading. I hope to catch up this week y'all!
Linda wrote: "John wrote: "So I'm not sure it could be Marathe's wife, although I will have to check the time periods - does the purse-snatching happen later than the conversaton between Marathe and Steeply?"T..."
Yrstrly I, Poor Tony, and C episode (but I don't see a reference to Poor Tony jacking an Etienne Aigner purse, or a woman for that matter?)
24 December YDAU in a section without a title
Steeply asks Marathe about the condition of his wife (89) on
3 April Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment.
Marathe's wife was dying slowly of ventricular restenosis (126)
30 April YDAU
Helen Steeply's article was written 10 August YDAU
I could be missing details, but I still can't pinpoint exactly when the incident might have taken place...The discussion between Marathe and Steeply, obviously takes place after December where Poor Tony has already headed for greener pastures and become a rat?
After we're done reading this book and the time line is cemented, I think it would be interesting to re-read the novel in chronological order...If possible?
Linda wrote: "John wrote: "I am dying to find out what is up with the tripod in the middle of the woods!"At first I thought the tripod in the woods was just a ploy of U.S.S. Millicent's (what an unfortunate ni..."
Ugh, if I don't have to know another thing about the USS Milicent other than what I know, I will be a happy girl-Nothing else about her could change the image I have of her in my mind. It's funny, We've encountered some pretty scary individuals with horrendous habits, of sorts, but the majority of these characters I feel some sympathy for; I can't say I feel the same for the USS Milicent. I found her section and character to be deplorable to the core! I was so bothered by her actions, I actually had to put the book down for a bit before I picked it back up. It's just terrible when somebody of Mario's nature is taken advantage of because of their mental short comings. I hope she gets torpedoed by another USS Whatever...Just terrible and predatory! But, yes, the tripod does elicit intrigue, doesn't it? :)
Rosemary wrote: "Q2. The different formats/styles are actually helping me to separate out the different times and narrators, I think.Does anyone have any clue where the bricklayer's industrial accident with a fal..."
I don't think we know how Daniel R. Glynn's (the Bricklayer) character fits into the plot as of yet. You can only assume in relation to the trend in characters, the fact that he's fallen six stories on top of bricks only to have a 30kg barrel fall on top of him, he's going to be saddled up somewhere completely doped up on pain medication for while...Your guess is as good as mine. I do wish we could have read the end of his claim letter, however.
Young Jim & Diff't styles in Writing Diff't Discourse
This section left me completely heartbroken for the two Incandenza men. I wish I knew more about the psychological aspects of alcohol dependency and the clinical terms used to describe the abusive relationship between father and son. I noticed the similarities between JOI's physical appearance at age 10 and those of Mario's too, but I don't think JOI treated Mario like a freak show the way Incandenza Sr. does JOI..Do you, or that we know of at this point?
I cringed while reading much of the interaction between Father and son. It's interesting because from beginning to end in this section, Incandenza Sr.'s tone and patience level change from decent and composed (as best as he knows how), to cruel and intolerant, as he continues to imbibe on the contents in his flask. You can't help but sense the euphoria and delusion in Incandenza Sr.'s voice when he begins by encouraging young Jim, despite his goggle eyed stare he (Incandenza Sr.) knew too well(158). Incandenza Sr. tells his son You are going to be a great tennis player. I was near-great. You will be truly great. You will be the real thing despite Jim not ever even having picked up a racquet(158). His narrative clearly gives us a look into his pickled mind...His word choice and slurred speech are soaked in amber liquid.
The berating gets worse depending on subject matter, be it Jim's mother, or Jim's lack of focus currently, and worse Jim's grandfather. One part in particular felt as if father was goading the son when Incandenza Sr. chides his for son for crying telling him his chin just disappears into that bow-tie when your big old overhung lower lip quivers like that. You look chinless, son, and big-lipped. And that cape of mucus that's coming down on your upper lip, the way it shines, don't just don't, it's revolting, son, you wont want to revolt people...(161). Incandenza Sr. sure did a great job building up his son's self-confidence!
The transposed interactions between Incandenza Sr. and young Jim, and the interaction between JOI (Himself, Dads) and Hal is especially important to note. I would call it a parallel, but the dynamics between the three and subject matter is too horrifically similar...It couldn't possibly be a parallel because the interactions were essentially the same. Both of the Incandenzas (Sr. and Himself) had wives that were partially responsible for their deflating masculinity, and both had fathers who were severe alcoholics that mentally abused their sons. Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incandenza men have created for themselves, including now, Hal.
Poor Tony's Section
I loved this section in particular...It's up there with Wardeen's piece! I didn't know anybody other than Mark Twain (in his time) could do such a great job at grasping the "street" vernacular, but DFW does an amazing job, an "amazing job" at transcribing the colloquialisms of Poor Tony, C, Yrstrly, and their world. Although, it was a little cumbersome to read with the lack of punctuation and severe spelling mistakes, it was necessary in the narrative giving the reader a more visceral feel into this drug infested street culture. I felt as if I was on an emotional speedball while on the heroin seeking journey of these three people. In spite of the sadness associated with the day-to-day lives of Poor Tony, Yrstrly, and C, this group is living a high intensity life always on the hunt for the next score (drug and money related) and there was a level of excitement you couldn't help but feel.
Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incandenza men have created for themselves, including now, Hal."This is interesting -- what gives you the impression that James wants to impart his pain onto Hal? From what I have seen it seems more like James is reaching out, desperate to connect with Hal. Hal has his own substance problems, of course, but it does not seem to be a direct result of a perpetuating cycle from his father.
Mekki wrote: "This novel just seems to be getting better and better.I'm heading off to work but i wanted to say is that i think the momento magazine article about the purse snatcher strongly resembles Marathe'..."
Marathe and Steeply...Moment magazine
I'm glad you brought up the Moment Magazine article on "supposedly" Marathe's wife, but did you notice the intro into this article? It describes the journalist, Helen Steeply, as enormous and electrolysis-rashed (142)?
In the Marathe-Steeply section in reference to Steeply:
Electrolysis had caused patches of tiny red pimples along his jowls and upper lip (93)
Steeply is found stroking his lip's electolysistic rash in a ruminative fashion (106).
There's also the slip up in the Helen of Troy reference when Steeply is trying to convey ...the great and timeless love, Rod Tine's for your Luria person(105). Helen is mentioned in a plethora ways
I always found the banter between these two men to not only be comical, but a sword play of words. It was really a battle of wits..Who knew what and how much more does one know than the other? But there were a few instances where Steeply said more without saying anything, which led me to believe that Steeply probably new more about the Entertainment and Marathe than he let on. Even while Marathe schooled Steeply on his Agamemnon/Menalaus/Paris slip up, Steeply pretended to smile...seemed amused in an idiotic way (105). Steeply is considered to be a genius of interviewing, sometimes affected more than usual idiocy with Marathe, which he new baited Marathe (106)-this guy knows what's he's doing, he's totally working Marathe. I think Hugh Steeply is also Helen Steeply...
Orin's section in October-Year of the Depend Adult Undergarment
And the news of pressure from the AZ Cardinal administration to cooperate with some sort of insipid-type personality-profile series of interviews with some profiler from "Moment" magazine...the unexamined stress of which drives him to start calling Hallie again, reopen that whole Pandora's box of worms (48).
Could this profiler be the very same Helen Steeply who does a soft profile on Phoenix Cardinal punter Orin J. Incandenza(142)?
Also, on page 136, Orin is having a telephone conversation with Hal where Hal estimates over 60% of what he told Orin on the phone since Orin had abruptly started calling again this spring was a lie. Before Hal has to leave for dinner, the exchange gets a little peculiar..
Orin
Kidding aside for second. What all do you know about Separatism?
Hal stopped for a moment. "you mean in Canada?"
Orin
Is there any other kind?
Hal's Essay
Linda wrote: "John wrote: "My first thought was that maybe James was synthesizing DMZ at their home somehow, and that is what young Hal consumed. That would certainly explain Avril's strangely panicked reaction ..."
Finally, I had made note of part of Hal's essay: "We await, I predict, the hero of non-action, the catatonic hero, the one beyond calm, divorced from all stimulus...." This seems to go along with the "Entertainment" scene with the medical attache where once one starts watching, they fall into such a catatonic state that nothing can phase them or bring them back out of that state. But....is this really a "hero", something to strive for? I don't know if I'm trying to make connections where they don't exist, but this is what I immediately thought of when I read Hal's essay.
First of all, I thought this essay was exemplary for a 7th grader...Wow, if only! I thought it was interesting the title of the section stated he received a B/B+ because the concluding paragraph was not supported by anything more than subjective intuition and rhetorical flourish and it's in this final paragraph where I was wondering if he was referring to himself (Hal) as the next hero...Hal is the one who is catatonic and divorced from all stimulus(142). In fact, when I read this section I read the last paragraph first and then kept it in mind as I read the essay in its entirety.
My question to you is what is the significance of the two burly men hopped up on retrograde amines? I have a theory, but I don't think it makes sense because it is dependent on Hal no longer having the ability to produce naturally occurring amines. The "retrograde" aspect in my theory doesn't make any sense because if Hal is making himself a reference point and the amines in the burly men are naturally occurring, then the retrograde aspect would mean that they are inducing amine production externally. So, in order for this to make sense would Hal's reference point be one where's he's not making naturally occurring amines in his body "any longer" which is his natural state; therefore a "retrograde" state be one where they are naturally occurring in the burly men? Surely, it's not as convoluted as I made it out to be...Surely not, right? :)
John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incandenza men have..."Mario Incandenza Sr. says, ...I drink this, sometimes, when I'm not actively working, to help me accept the same painful things it's now time for me to tell you, son. Jim. Are you ready?...(160).
I do see it as an attempt to reach out as you say, but both generations of men fail at this because they take this direct approach and instead unleash on their children-they seem to be too emotional, thus forgetting to focus on the facts at hand, or the reason they are there to begin with? Both men spoke poorly of their fathers and very negatively of their wives. To me, if you're trying to bond with me and in doing so you bash my grandfather and mother, as a child, I'm going to come out of this conversation feeling completely desolated by the experience because you've essentially negated 25-50% (respectively) of my DNA...They've unintentionally/intentionally imparted their pain. I agree with you the intentions on the parts of both fathers can be considered pure, but for me, it starts out as nobel, and what transpires thereafter is questionable and detrimental... To any child's psyche.
Each father has his individual reasonings for wanting to have this heart to heart conversation with they sons; Sr. to discuss how to be a top-level tennis player with JOI, and JOI to discuss with Hal why he "supposedly" does not speak. Hal and JOI only seem to have a real conversation when Himself is under disguise, once the disguise comes off, didn't the discussion take a turn for the worse? There's a real communication issue with these men! I didn't think JOI came out of that interaction enriched with a better idea of his son, but Hal sure as hell knows a lot more about his father "and" mother. Same goes for Sr. and JOI, for that matter. Their talk was scattered with biteful comments describing JOI's non-aesthetically pleasing qualities from the get go. If this time was to be spent building up his son, then why did he spend so much time tearing him down-Incandenza Sr. is so far gone, he doesn't even realize what he's saying and forget about how his 10 year old son is perceiving the verbal diarrhea coming out of his mouth. The desired outcome is never achieved for the fathers, alternatively, the kids leave with more pain.
From what I understand of the disease, alcoholics are prone to use the same abusive mannerisms on their own children, that they themselves hated as children.
Ami, where are the "two burly men" you mention? I don't recall exactly which characters you mean.
John wrote: "Ami, where are the "two burly men" you mention? I don't recall exactly which characters you mean."John, it's page 142, ...carried here and there across sets by burly extras whose blood sings with retrograde amines. I pictured two men, one on either side of a catatonic non-action hero. Sorry.
I need to go back and review the burly men and the retrograde amines section, I don't remember this part at all for some reason. But I find I'm have a terrible time remembering everything that occurs each week, let alone from two weeks ago. Clearly I'm going to have to reread this book!
Ami wrote: "I don't think we know how Daniel R. Glynn's (the Bricklayer) character fits into the plot as of yet. You can only assume in relation to the trend in characters, the fact that he's fallen six stories on top of bricks only to have a 30kg barrel fall on top of him, he's going to be saddled up somewhere completely doped up on pain medication for while..."That's an excellent prediction, I hadn't thought of that.
Ami wrote: "After we're done reading this book and the time line is cemented, I think it would be interesting to re-read the novel in chronological order...If possible?"Now THAT would be a project! I wonder if anyone has actually tackled that - putting into order the pages to read so as to read the story chronologically.
Ami wrote: "I think Hugh Steeply is also Helen Steeply..."You make some very solid arguments for this claim - definitely something to be on the lookout for now.
Linda wrote: "I need to go back and review the burly men and the retrograde amines section, I don't remember this part at all for some reason. But I find I'm have a terrible time remembering everything that occ..."Awesome! On page 171, Hal is helping Mario read "Hamlet" while eating an AminoPal® energy bar...More amines?
Ami wrote: "Awesome! On page 171, Hal is helping Mario read "Hamlet" while eating an AminoPal® energy bar...More amines?"Yes, now THIS I do remember!
And thanks for the reference to page 142. I'll have to go back and review.
John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incandenza men have..."Hal has his own substance problems, of course, but it does not seem to be a direct result of a perpetuating cycle from his father.
No, but when you have generational ties to alcohol abuse in your family and those who suffer are inclined to behave in the same manner as their predecessor, don't you think it puts Hal at risk to express the very same behaviors...Alcohol, or drug related? We know all three generations suffer from depression and that's a trigger for substance abuse, isn't it? Also, in the first week's reading, wasn't Avril especially worried about Hal's underage drinking because of the genetic predisposition for alcoholism in his family? I'm not saying this is the reason alone for Hal's drug use, I'm saying having this in his family leaves him very vulnerable to addiction of any sort.
O.N.A.NGood grief, can we please talk about the O.N.A.N ensign silk screened on the driver's side door of the shared vehicle belonging to Pemulis, Axford, Hal and Jim Struck -a snarling full-front eagle with a broom and a can of disinfectant in one claw and a Maple Leaf in the other wearing a sombrero and appearing to have about half-eaten a swatch of star studded cloth alongside the pre-Tavis traditional motto, "TE OCCIDERE POSSUNT..." (153).
Can you even imagine this as a symbol for a newly developed coalition of nations? The eagle with a mouthful of tattered U.S. flag in it's mouth, what a horrific image to think about, yet I couldn't help but laugh at the vulgarity of it all! I still laugh envisioning it while I write this.
It's the first reference to Mexico, I speculate with the eagle adorned with a sombrero, as being a part of O.N.A.N even though we have not heard a thing about its involvement...But why wouldn't Mexico have joined the organization, right?
Ami wrote: "John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incand..."There is definitely a genetic predisposition at play, but that doesn't mean that James is inflicting Hal with the kind of abusive, dysfunctional parenting that James' father practiced. Himself is a broken man, sure, but he has no wish to see his sons suffer the same fate. If he imparts pain to Hal, it is because he is weak, rather than malicious and selfish as his father and grandfather were.
Also, I didn't get the impression that James' father had a wife who caused his masculinity to deflate -- it seemed rather that he barely even recognized his wife as a person, implying that she was "part of the environment"(164) as his own mother was to him.
Maybe I'm just being overly defensive of James -- he certainly wasn't a great father, but I don't think he deserves to be likened to his own father.
I do remember Hal's essay, but like Linda I don't think I took the time to look at it in the context of what it might reflect about Hal himself. I'll have to reread that part as well.
John wrote: "Ami wrote: "John wrote: "Ami wrote: "Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycl..."but that doesn't mean that James is inflicting Hal with the kind of abusive, dysfunctional parenting that James' father practiced.
If I alluded to father and son having a likeness to one another, it was only in the sense they have a tendency for bitterness-which probably stems from their depression-which is enhanced by their alcoholism. They are not one in the same, but there is evidence for quite a few similarities. And no I don't think they mean to have a bite to their words, it just ends up being that way...Its become an innate manner of living. One thing I do notice, is that Hal doesn't think poorly of his father, from what I gather-Hal genuinely does look up to JOI. Whereas, I do think JOI isn't as positive about Mario Sr.
Also, I didn't get the impression that James' father had a wife who caused his masculinity to deflate -- it seemed rather that he barely even recognized his wife as a person, implying that she was "part of the environment"(164) as his own mother was to him.
If she's a part of this environment, like Mario Sr.'s mother was to him, where he no longer even senses her presence because she's always there, then why bring her to the forefront as an example of how not to behave? Mario Sr. says to young Jim... She's a shover and thruster, son. She's never learned that treating things in the gentlest most relaxed way is also treating them and your own body in the most efficient way (157). Also, wouldn't Mario Sr. also constitute as a "body outside herself," therefore saying she didn't really treat him well either? Or perhaps a better way of saying it would be that she might have held Mario Sr. in contempt for his failures and inability to provide for his family? Remember, Mario Sr. also refers to her as a devoted mother, and long suffering wife, and breadwinner ...Long "suffering" wife and "breadwinner" as a woman, would be emasculating in the 50s for a man like Mario Sr., no?
As far as JOI and Avril
From what we know, it was a marriage of opportunity, I thought. To me, she was pretty much physically non-existent in his life; doing whatever it was she was involved in, and doing whomever (of the Canadian persuasion..HAHA) during the course of their marriage...What do you say?
Maybe I'm just being overly defensive of James -- he certainly wasn't a great father, but I don't think he deserves to be likened to his own father
So what, be defensive! At least you're willing to read my comments...I think?! Now whether, or not, I dissuade you from your stance...Well, that's another story, but I thank you for indulging and helping me flesh out these densely packed characters! :)
I finally have have some time to go back and read your posts more thoroughly, Ami.Ami wrote: "Both of the Incandenzas (Sr. and Himself) had wives that were partially responsible for their deflating masculinity, and both had father's who were severe alcoholics that mentally abused their sons. Two generations of men who drank ...to accept the same painful things who then in turn want to impart this pain onto their sons (160)-what an evil cyclical cycle the Incandenza men have created for themselves, including now, Hal.
I agree that the alcoholism is a cycle that was passed down from father to son, but I don't necessarily think they want to impart this pain onto their sons. But I would say that the way James was treated as a child by his alcoholic father had a lasting imprint on him, whether he is conscience of it or not, and so this is the way he ends up treating Hal. And now I can't remember or find which one of the fathers told his son that he would be a great tennis player, and this was before the son had even started playing tennis?? It's as if what is in the family stays in the family, whether you like it or not. That's got to be a big burden to bare. I wonder if part of the drinking also starts with the burden the fathers carry by the time and effort and work it takes to try and make their sons great players.
I don't remember the wife of Sr. Incandenza instrumental in deflating his masculinity. I will have to go back and look up that section again.
John wrote: This is interesting -- what gives you the impression that James wants to impart his pain onto Hal? From what I have seen it seems more like James is reaching out, desperate to connect with Hal.
John, you bring up a good point. Yeah, I don't think James wants to impart pain onto Hal. But sometimes the cycle of alcoholism and the effect it has on you is too much to break? Either children are just like their parents, or sometimes they become the complete opposite. I wonder....I'm now thinking back to the beginning of the book where James is interviewing Hal while in disguise. It was noted that it seemed while James was in disguise, he was able to actually converse with Hal, but when the disguise failed, communication became more difficult and then ceased. I wonder if the bit with the disguise is to show that James MUST become someone other than himself in order to open the lines of communication with his son? Otherwise, as the father he is now, he has lost that communication, whether due to alcohol or the way he would normally interact with Hal. (have we seen another interaction between James and Hal yet?)
Ami wrote: One part in particular felt as if father was goading the son when Incandenza Sr. chides his for son for crying telling him his chin just disappears into that bow-tie when your big old overhung lower lip quivers like that. You look chinless, son, and big-lipped. And that cape of mucus that's coming down on your upper lip, the way it shines, don't just don't, it's revolting, son, you wont want to revolt people...(161). Incandenza Sr. sure did a great job building up his son's self-confidence!"
Yeah, this particular scene was disgusting to envision.
Ami wrote: "I do see it as an attempt to reach out as you say, but both generations of men fail at this because they take this direct approach and instead unleash on their children-they seem to be too emotional, thus forgetting to focus on the facts at hand, or the reason they are there to begin with?...."This entire analysis was excellent, Ami.
Ami wrote: Hal and JOI only seem to have a real conversation when Himself is under disguise, once the disguise comes off, didn't the discussion take a turn for the worse? There's a real communication issue with these men! I didn't think JOI came out of that interaction enriched with a better idea of his son, but Hal sure as hell knows a lot more about his father "and" mother.
Yes. Excellent point about Hal learning so much more about his father and mother than James learned about his son in this scene.
Ami wrote: page 142, ...carried here and there across sets by burly extras whose blood sings with retrograde amines. I pictured two men, one on either side of a catatonic non-action hero.
OK, totally forgot that this was the very last part of Hal's essay!! Ami, I'm a little confused on your retrograde and naturally occurring amines theory. From pointing out p. 171 with Hal eating an AminoPal, this suggests that Hal doesn't produce naturally occurring amines, and thus must get them externally. But I don't get how the burly men could be "hopped up" on retrograde amines if the term "retrograde" means naturally occurring? Or are they amines purified from natural sources, so still can be considered retrograde, and the burly men are consuming more than needed and so are "hopped up"? I think I'm just confusing myself here. :)
Linda wrote: "I finally have have some time to go back and read your posts more thoroughly, Ami.Ami wrote: "Both of the Incandenzas (Sr. and Himself) had wives that were partially responsible for their deflati..."
And now I can't remember or find which one of the fathers told his son that he would be a great tennis player, and this was before the son had even started playing tennis?
Message 22 Quote on page 158 It's between Mario Sr. and young Jim.
Ami wrote: "And now I can't remember or find which one of the fathers told his son that he would be a great tennis player, and this was before the son had even started playing tennis?Message 22 Quote on page 158 It's between Mario Sr. and young Jim. "
Oh yes, you did point this out. Sorry!
Linda wrote: "I finally have have some time to go back and read your posts more thoroughly, Ami.Ami wrote: "Both of the Incandenzas (Sr. and Himself) had wives that were partially responsible for their deflati..."
I don't necessarily think they 'want' to impart this pain onto their sons
"want" was a poor choice of wording. I used it because of how he explained why he drinks ... sometimes, when I'm not actively working, to help me accept the same painful things it's now time for me to tell you, son. Jim. Are you ready?...(160). To me, it read as if he was attempting to explain his pain, but instead ended up doing something completely different. After he does this, Mario Sr. goes into a whole spiel about the care he shows for his silver flask...treating it with due care...feeling it's shape...how it's never been dropped or jostled even going so far as telling his 10-year old son to have just maybe a taste, here...It's as if his relationship with the flask was of a romantic nature, the way he describes it caring for this object outside of himself. (160-161). Maybe it was the point...To be romantic with these objects outside of yourself and not brutish?
I digressed, a little..."Want" being a poor choice of wording. Himself and Hal, their discussion took a detour as well...Himself wanted to understand his son better, and vice versa, but here too, it turned into something completely different. Again, I do not think either wants to impart any physical or mental anguish on their progeny...It just happens to turn out this way.
Ami wrote: ""want" was a poor choice of wording. I used it because of how he explained why he drinks ...Yes, I see what you are getting at here.
It's as if his relationship with the flask was of a romantic nature, the way he describes it caring for this object outside of himself. (160-161). Maybe it was the point...To be romantic with these objects outside of yourself and not brutish?"
Hmmm...interesting. I wonder if the care he shows the flask is because this is the one thing that offers him as an escape to his feelings? It does sound romantic, I suppose in a way that when you are in love and with your romantic partner, you are, or feel like a "better" self than when you are alone, almost as an escape.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "I do see it as an attempt to reach out as you say, but both generations of men fail at this because they take this direct approach and instead unleash on their children-they seem to be ..."Linda we're going to figure this out, the retrograde amines...If it kills me any ways :))
Okay, when I think retrograde, I just think against the grain...counterclockwise...an opposing direction.
Retrograde amines*, read without any context, I would presume are amines not produced by the body, or amines in the body that aren't following proper channels or pathways?
As of page 142, I speculate the 'non-' action hero, divorced from all stimulus, carried here and there across sets by burly extras whose blood sings with retrograde amines is Hal talking about himself because he wrote the essay also because the last paragraph is considered to be subjective intuition (critique from professor). So taking this into consideration, as Hal as a reference point "divorced from stimulus," thus producing no amines, the retrograde amines must be naturally occurring in the bodies of the burly men.
In my previous post, I gave two scenarios: One where Hal is not the reference point, therefore retrograde amines would have to be externally taken by the burly men, and the second, where Hal is the reference point and devoid of stimulus.
See, I wasn't sure about the AminoBar either...I really thought it was some type of protein bar?
**It drives me bonkers there are so many references to "amines" when we're really talking about neurotransmitters...Right? Why couldn't DFW just say neurotransmitters? Amines are functional groups containing a Nitrogen, which are a major component of an amino acid and amino acids build neurotransmitters, proteins, etc. Is the situation so dire, he's really no longer producing the amine factor of an amino acid...Good grief?
Ami wrote: "Linda we're going to figure this out, the retrograde amines...If it kills me any ways :))"ha ha! :D
OK, so when I first read the word amines referenced, my mind went straight to "amino acids" and thus to proteins, and so that made sense about the AminoPal being a protein bar to me. And so the burly extras whose blood sings with retrograde amines sounds like big buff weightlifting dudes who bulk up on protein powder drinks.
But of course you are correct in that amines make up compounds other than amino acids. I had to look up some of this stuff, being that it has been 20 years since taking organic chemistry! So yes, they can also make up neurotransmitters too - dopamine, histamine, etc. So...the neurotransmitters role in the amines reference did not occur to me at the time.
Retrograde amines*, read without any context, I would presume are amines not produced by the body, or amines in the body that aren't following proper channels or pathways?
If the amines are referencing neurotransmitters, then, from your definitions of retrograde, to me it would make more sense that they "aren't following proper channels or pathways". So in this sense they could be drugs taken, as in external neurotransmitters that are not normally in the body, so they take up internal pathways not normally used in that way, or pathways not used to that high degree. So if "retrograde amines" in reference to the burly men are the neurotransmitter type, then these burly men are just all doped up on drugs. Or....drugs that bulk up their muscles, similar to protein powders but in a more direct and unnatural approach.
OK, so I think I'm confused about the reference point and your two scenarios then. The first one, the burly men take the retrograde amines, and the second one Hal is devoid of stimulus. I guess I'm confused because could these both be true? That is how I read it, at least. That the burly men are the ones whose blood sings with retrograde amines and the 'non-'action hero, divorced from all stimulus can either be Hal (if he is using himself as the reference point), or someone else (if he himself is not the reference point). Does that make sense?
**It drives me bonkers there are so many references to "amines" when we're really talking about neurotransmitters...Right?....Is the situation so dire, he's really no longer producing the amine factor of an amino acid...Good grief?
Perhaps the bit with the AminoPal is a red herring. Like how when protein bars hit the market years ago, only serious athletes ate them. But now here we are today where they are at all grocery stores and gas stations and people buy and eat them as if they were candy bars (which pretty much they are...). Maybe the AminoPal is simply a protein bar that Hal happens to be snacking on and it has nothing to do with the retrograde amines, which could actually be neurotransmitters, or drugs?
Ami, you have me kind of confused here with the whole "amines" thing. I get why that paragraph is suggested to apply to Hal himself, but to assume from it that he has some kind of chemical deficiency seems like a bit of a stretch. Is there some previous information you're basing this idea on?If I had to formulate a theory, I would be more inclined to guess that the "burly extras" will prove to be (view spoiler)
(I only marked that as a spoiler b/c it references week 4's reading, but we are in week 3's thread)
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Linda we're going to figure this out, the retrograde amines...If it kills me any ways :))"ha ha! :D
OK, so when I first read the word amines referenced, my mind went straight to "am..."
The first one, the burly men take the retrograde amines, and the second one Hal is devoid of stimulus. I guess I'm confused because could these both be true? That is how I read it, at least. That the burly men are the ones whose blood sings with retrograde amines and the 'non-'action hero, divorced from all stimulus can either be Hal (if he is using himself as the reference point), or someone else (if he himself is not the reference point). Does that make sense?
Nope..Nope...you're right, they both end up being true. I was considering the retrograde amine to be the new natural state compared to Hal's state of being devoid of any. The retrograde amines have to be something different other than the internal/external argument. I will work on this and get back to you.
Ami wrote: "O.N.A.NGood grief, can we please talk about the O.N.A.N ensign silk screened on the driver's side door...
Can you even imagine this as a symbol for a newly developed coalition of nations? The eagle with a mouthful of tattered U.S. flag in it's mouth, what a horrific image to think about, yet I couldn't help but laugh at the vulgarity of it all! I still laugh envisioning it while I write this."
Ha ha!! I know, I totally laughed at this description. I had actually accidentally come upon a sketch of the image when I Googled O.N.A.N. to remind me what the acronym stood for. So I already had the image in my mind when I read the description and it was spot on, AND totally ridiculous! The sombrero on the eagle takes the cake - it looks like something that would be in an SNL skit.
John wrote: "Ami, you have me kind of confused here with the whole "amines" thing. I get why that paragraph is suggested to apply to Hal himself, but to assume from it that he has some kind of chemical deficien..."He's divorced from stimuli and catatonic, he makes reference to these burly men, who are physically thriving and singing with retrograde amines (functional groups in amino acids that make proteins and neurotransmitters)...It's the complete opposite of his catatonic state, which leads me to believe there's something going on with him chemically...To what degree, I don't know yet.
In my original post "trying" to explain a theory I had on retrograde amines, it was based on internally vs externally produced amines, but Linda actually made a better point here...
If the amines are referencing neurotransmitters, then, from your definitions of retrograde, to me it would make more sense that they "aren't following proper channels or pathways". So in this sense they could be drugs taken, as in external neurotransmitters that are not normally in the body, so they take up internal pathways not normally used in that way, or pathways not used to that high degree. So if "retrograde amines" in reference to the burly men are the neurotransmitter type, then these burly men are just all doped up on drugs. Or....drugs that bulk up their muscles, similar to protein powders but in a more direct and unnatural approach.
Whether it's to mentally enhance, or physically, absolutely "everybody" is on some sort of drug in this book!! LoL!
I'll keep in mind what you said earlier in the spoiler, maybe we can revisit this.
Linda wrote: "Ami wrote: "Linda we're going to figure this out, the retrograde amines...If it kills me any ways :))"ha ha! :D
OK, so when I first read the word amines referenced, my mind went straight to "am..."
If the amines are referencing neurotransmitters, then, from your definitions of retrograde, to me it would make more sense that they "aren't following proper channels or pathways". So in this sense they could be drugs taken, as in external neurotransmitters that are not normally in the body, so they take up internal pathways not normally used in that way, or pathways not used to that high degree. So if "retrograde amines" in reference to the burly men are the neurotransmitter type, then these burly men are just all doped up on drugs. Or....drugs that bulk up their muscles, similar to protein powders but in a more direct and unnatural approach.
I like this explanation much better because it does have to do with more than an external/internal production scenario. I'm going with this. Essentially, everybody is taking something, or another, illegal and legall!
1. It is also interesting to see how Wallace intertwines and knits into a complex pattern not only the separate lines, but even themes, like cross-dressing with Steely (where it was a professional necessity and Millicent's father - where is was a behavioral pattern).
Have you noticed other thematic mirroring?
2. Wallace also plays with different styles of writing and different discourses (resolutions, memos, reports, etc.) Is it complicating your reading experience or enriching it?
3. What do we know about O.N.A.N and anti-O.N.A.N. at this moment in the novel?
4. Some of the individual stand-alone stories within the novel are quite weird, quirky, and bizarre. They resemble urban legends. Which of them do you find the most unbelievable/ the most interesting?
5. The excurcus into the past (1960). Is it our time-line or an alternative one? Do you see how and why this story is in the novel?
Despite some bleak moments, there are also hilarious and even slapstick humorous episodes. Most of them are SCATOLOGICAL. Which of them is the most memorable? Do they make you blush? Why are the episodes often about feces, intestinal gasses, sex, and urination?
Happy reading, everybody. I have packed my books (23 boxes) and have left only three books unpacked, and IJ is the one that I am carrying around hoping for a chance to read. So far, it is has worked well for me, and I have definitely flexed and trained the muscles of my forearms:-). Talking about consumerism and capitalism. All my liberal pretenses are shed and discarded when it comes to books. Then it is only about possession. :-)
Again, be patient with me if I do not post too often during these crazy weeks. I am still with you, enjoying the novel a lot - I even like its rambling craziness :-)