"The Wolf in the Whale" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Okay! Let's talk about this epic story!

I would like to do things a little bit differently here, so please read this post.

There are a lot of subjects in this story that can be intensely personal and meaningful for folks, and I want to make sure that the way we discuss the book does not invalidate anyone's own experiences.

So, what I'd like to do first is to focus on the positives, of which there are many! From there, we can start to critique, but I'd like to have our criticisms flow naturally from points others bring up, so try to engage with other posts as much as you can, and to be supportive, even if you disagree. I know this group is full of excellent listeners and analyzers, so I expect you'll all do this more or less naturally anyways :)

In case we need a starting point, here are a few questions:

1. What was your favorite part?
2. What characters did you most identify with?
3. What did you learn from this book?
4. What did you want to see more of?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'll start us off!

I loved the mythology and the fun way they wove together. One of the sort of funny things Snorri Sturluson did when he wrote down The Gylfaginning was that he tied in the Norse gods to biblical events (which is probably one of the few reasons it was allowed to survive when it was created!) so it was fun for me to see Brodsky continue that borrowing trend.

I really loved spending time with the Inuit mythology, that's not something we hear much of and I really appreciated the care with which it was presented. I think this is what I learned most about.

I was so hopeful we'd get more of the magic side of Omat regaining their powers! The Ragnarok was so quick, I really wanted to slow all that down.

[Amanda]

I appreciated, especially upon reading the afterward, the way that the histories of both groups were incorporated into the narrative. It really felt for the most part like historical fiction with some supernatural elements, rather than a fantasy novel per se. Which was fantastic! It's another one of my favorite genres.

That said, l found it a bit jarring once the mythological elements came more to the forefront. They'd been in the background throughout, but starting with Loki revealing himself, the narrative swung from a more realistic one into leaning more heavily on the fantasy elements. Omat’s conversations with Loki and the other gods here were almost a distraction as opposed to the previous interactions with the Inuit spirits, which were more subtle and I think better woven into the narrative.

Omat was a fascinating character. I loved their emotional journey throughout this story and growing relationship with Brandr, and it felt very real to me.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Amanda I completely agree! It was one of my only complaints about the book- the battle and everything just didn’t jive with the tone and feeling of the rest of the book.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I thought there was an attempt at commentary, that the Ragnarok wasn't necessarily about the actual end of days but about the end of isolation. I would have liked it more if it had been more embedded in the "A" plot though, I would agree with that.

[Oleksandr]

Allison wrote: "1. What was your favorite part?
2. What characters did you most identify with?
3. What did you learn from this book?
4. What did you want to see more of?"

1. I liked the beginning, an introduction to Inuit culture and mythology, about which I know almost nothing, with the closest fic and non-fic read being Farley Mowat's books like The Snow Walker and Never Cry Wolf: The Amazing True Story of Life Among Arctic Wolves. I liked getting into their mindset, that something happens not by an accident, but by the will of gods and spirits, such fatalism is quite unusual. And it allowed to read at two levels: the story as it is, and an unreliable narrator, who just imagines things. this 'two levels' approach was broken when magic run rampant, starting with learning the Norse. From then on it was just an average fantasy for me.

2. I rarely identify with a character, I can often 'feel' their emotions but I rarely truly can say - this is a book about me. Moreover, when I thought about it, the protagonist is a complex figure, but the rest are quite flat, they are more a background for heroine's story.

3. Inuit mythology

4. I'd like it was more in vein with the beginning, as described in #1

[Chris]

One thing I liked was the importance of ideas. For both of the two main cultures portrayed, ideas about how people should act and what the world is like were very rigid. However, both also had some capacity for flexibility, especially when evoked by exceptional individuals like Omat and Freydis.

The internal turning point happened during Omat's second spirit voyage to the Moon. From the fact that the Moon and the Sun always kept their distance from each other as they rose and set, the Inuit had the story about the lecherous Moon chasing the frightened Sun. However, there was no reason that the same movements couldn't be interpreted as the vengeful Sun chasing the frightened Moon.

The Norse and the Inuit came to very different conclusions in the face of the harshness of nature in the North. The Norse saw chaotic nature as something to be fought, conquered, and brought to order. Even something as mundane as making cloth involved pushing threads into neat rows and columns with a weaving sword. The Inuit saw nature as being orderly, having many rules. They had to obey the rules or risk the wrath of the ruling spirits.

Both cultures had rigid gender roles, but there was some flexibility when someone with talent and determination came along. I liked how Omat was able to see something of himself/herself in Freydis, though they were enemies.

Flexibility wasn't always good though. Loki was an example of someone who was completely flexible and also completely selfish. He changed shape and disguised the truth in order to manipulate others to serve his ends.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Oh, very well captured, Chris!! I really like the theme you see of the flexible and the ingrained--what sticks, what we can compromise on.

[Lesley]

I just finished this early today, and I have mixed feelings about it. To answer some of Allison’s questions: I loved the writing: the feel of being on the land ice, the precariousness of sea ice and the long, hungry winter nights spent huddled together for warmth and companionship was atmospheric and visceral. I could clearly picture the characters in this setting. I also appreciated the themes that the author was trying to weave through the story, reverence for animals, loyalty to family and a way of life, gender roles and otherness, but I don’t think she hit the mark on all of them. I think that the deep discussions that have been sparked by these themes and how well they worked or didn’t, was a very valuable part of the reading experience and a learned experience for me.

On a side note, as a fiber arts enthusiast, I was tickled by the spinning and weaving scenes and I’m totally jealous of the qiviut fur they collected and spun.

[Amanda]

Lesley wrote: "On a side note, as a fiber arts enthusiast, I was tickled by the spinning and weaving scenes and I’m totally jealous of the qiviut fur they collected and spun.
"

That's so cool! I love when a book touches on a familiar subject like that (assuming they actually did their research).

[Carolyn]

I’ve read about 40% of the book (the Vikings have just shown up).

I’ve been intrigued by Native American culture/history my entire life having grown up along the Trail of Tears and now living in Santa Fe. I spent some time in Newfoundland in my 20’s, where I became fascinated by the Inuit culture as well. There are so many similarities between the 2. Shamanism/mythology are the most obvious but this book is also reminding me of some of the reading I’ve done about the role of “two spirit people” (those who identify as both male/female) in Native American culture.

At the moment, I am most drawn to Omat and am deeply moved by their struggle to be accepted in the role of a shaman irregardless of their sex.

I’m also enjoying the detailed descriptions daily life and the life threatening challenges faced by the Inuit in this incredibly harsh, isolated landscape.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I'm so glad you're enjoying it, Carolyn, and that it ties in well with things that interest you! I agree, the mythology and way of life things are fascinating.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

In a timely article, scientists have tested whether you can make a knife from fecal matter. I think in the book it said the myth was that a sled was made of poo, but this seems to be the story it's based off of.

Or, if you'd like, here's a funnier one from IFL Science.

[Oleksandr]

Chris wrote: "The Norse and the Inuit came to very different conclusions in the face of the harshness of nature in the North. The Norse saw chaotic nature as something to be fought, conquered, and brought to order."

Your interpretation is quite interesting, thanks for sharing. I however cannot fully agree with chaos vs order here. Firstly, Norse was agricultural society, so settled to a greater extent and when they started going a-viking, they had no intention to replace chaos with order. Secondly, Inuits quickly adopt spinning and weaving because it helps to survive and prosper. Just like in the XIX century they increased hunting for hides when merchants came to but them...

[Chris]

Oleksandr, what I wrote was about the book's comparison and contrast in the service of telling a story. I'm sure that the cultures in real life can't fit any simple generalizations.

[Oleksandr]

Chris wrote: "I'm sure that the cultures in real life can't fit any simple generalizations."

I completely agree with that statement. My point was not a criticism as such but another pov.

[Hank, Hankenstein's Modster]

Like others I liked the setting/environment the most. I have always been fascinated with cold and North landscapes and have read many non-fiction expedition books. I liked the descriptions of the seal hunts, the leads and the mentality to survive all of that.

[Carolyn]

I was so enamored of the relationship that was developing between Omat and Brandr and am sad that it seems to have been cut short due to Omat’s capture by the Norse. Just started Part 4 last night.

[Carolyn]

Well, it had me until Ragnarok. LOL. Glad I read it but last two sections were definitely a bit of a slog for me.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha yes! I'd like to talk about Ragnarok. How did people feel that fit in?

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

For me the tone was wildly out of place. The rest of the time we’d been dealing with what felt like more historical fantasy/magical realism, and then Ragnarok happened and it just felt out of place, entirely fantasy.

[Paul]

The story inspired me to look up some of the historical figures, learn more about the Inuit culture, and touched on some social issues that are bewilderingly still an issue even today. Overall, very good read.

I really liked this story. The first section was not just harsh in content but hard for me to get through stylistically. But after thinking about what I didn't like in the first section I found a little worthwhile introspection. Also, after finishing the rest of the story, I realize how important the first section was despite how hard it was to get through.

Carolyn wrote: "Well, it had me until Ragnarok. LOL. Glad I read it but last two sections were definitely a bit of a slog for me."

I agree that certain events were jarring and felt way out of left field. It felt a bit like the author had a strict outline they wanted to follow that didn't quite follow how the story was developing. The introduction of the Norse and Ragnarok were two such examples.

[Amanda]

I actually liked the Ragnarok portion as a metaphor (I would be more specific but I no longer have the book available), and enjoyed how it was written, but it definitely felt out of place with the tone of the rest of the novel.

[Rosie]

I thought the descriptions of the Inuk culture and the everyday things to do for survival and life in that environment were really well done. Very much brought it to life. The thing that grated on me a lot was the attitude to women. Their roles and skills and knowledge, while on the one hand acknowledged as essential to the survival of the community, are at the same time treated with the disdain of "women's work". I feel a portion of Omat's inner conflict wouldn't have existed if the strict binary of what the skills and actions a woman is allowed to do compared to a man weren't in place. The same for Tapsi, who would have been happier and probably more skilled and useful doing something else, but trapped in the demands of the narrow avenue of how being a man is acceptable.

[Rosie]

I enjoy how Omat slowly integrates the skills learned as both a male and female into their life. Seeing the value and necessity of both, then of course encountering Brandr, with both of them applying their gender expectations on trying to interpret each other, from clothing, ornaments, tattoos and braid's. How they can be so specifically gendered in opposite ways in different cultures. The Inuit legends and Spirits I really enjoyed too, along with the hints at the existence of the Norse god's in Omat's earlier visions. The way the different God's existence are described reminds me a lot of American God's, with the old and new fighting each other for survival from the belief of their followers. I'm glad I've stuck with it, as the early attitudes to the woman's place in the societies honestly put me off and frustrated me.

[Rosie]

Just getting to the Ragnarok bit so will see how that goes. I can't help picturing Tom Hiddlstone as Loki though.

[Anthony]

I’m still in the middle of the book (about halfway through chapter 20) so I’m not reading the rest of these posts yet, but I just wanted to say I’m getting bummed out by the one-dimensional portrayal of Issuk. Villains need more complexity than this.

[Jemppu]

Anthony wrote: "...the one-dimensional portrayal of Issuk. Villains need more complexity than this."

Agreed. But I took that lack of dimension here to be because the portrayal was mostly from Omat's POV - their experience -, thus a rather partial view. An outside observer / third party narration might've been more objective, and able to see more depth to his character.

[Anthony]

I don’t know, it depicted his words and actions, which were objectively real, in such a singularly monstrous and caustic manner, that it went beyond it being told from Omat’s POV. No matter, now; I just finished part 2, with the slaughter of him and his family, so I guess that’s all we were going to get.

It’s starting to feel like Omat is being thrust from one bad situation to the next, and maybe the novel is ultimately in part about our powerlessness in the face of forces beyond our control, but I’m not totally feeling Omat’s emotional throughline in all this.

The brutality sure is brutal. I found such brutality much more convincingly and powerfully portrayed in The Broken Sword, however.

So far, this is underwhelming me more than I had hoped.

[J.W.]

Loved the writing style. Loved Omat and the surprises centered around them. Did not love the tone shifts towards the end. Also I did enjoy the sometimes lengthy discussions of trade and craft. Not enough fantasy literature has that and it was so interesting.

[Oleksandr]

Rosie wrote: "The way the different God's existence are described reminds me a lot of American God's, with the old and new fighting each other for survival from the belief of their followers."

I recently re-read American Gods and for me it also sounded similar (even if I liked gods' representation in Gaiman's novel better). The idea isn't new, I guess there is a short story from maybe the 50s, where a drowning shipwreck asks god for help, but the god comes knee deep in water and unable to do anything because this world is less faithful than it has been before

[Andy]

Well written, but alas...DNF 50%.

Questions 1 and 3. New cultures! I loved all the details of Inuit religion and daily life. They were sometimes surprising but seemed credible.

Question 2. I identified with the young man in Omat's village who isn't able to do what's expected of a man (like hunting). He and Omat are different kinds of gender conformity outliers in a village where gender roles are polar opposites (pardon the pun). I'd probably disappoint them in the same ways he did.

Question 4. ?

It looks like Omat and Brandr's relationship worked well for most of y'all, which is great. Unfortunately it didn't for me, though I'm struggling to articulate why.

Sexual violence in fiction doesn't strongly trigger me, but when an author uses it to direct the arc of a character's growth, that does make me really wary—especially about the characters' post-violence relationships.

It seemed like I was supposed to want Omat and Brandr to connect somehow because of their opposing experiences with sexual violence—whether they connected romantically, or as part of their mutual healing, or both. But when they got separated at around the 50% mark, I realized I was just plain relieved. So I gave myself permission to stop internally wincing and move on to other stories. I'm glad it didn't affect everyone that way.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Very well said, Andy, and I'm also glad you're moving along! Their relationship was something I struggled with. I know some loved it, anyone care to comment on the romance?

[Carolyn]

I liked the relationship when it was a “bromance.” Once it became a more typical romance, I was less enamored of it.

[Anthony]

I’ve been struggling to articulate some of the things that I found very frustrating with this novel, and in light of this conversation, I think part of it is that even though Brodsky seemed to want to do something powerful and complex with the themes of sexual assault, she really ultimately didn’t find a way to do so. Therefore the events themselves wound up feeling brutal for the sake of being brutal, and the consequences on all sides didn’t ever really have the impact they could and should have had.

[Rosie]

It would be nice to have more relationships between people that don't have to end up being romantic when they're portrayed as being opposite gender in some way. The necessity of putting up with each other for survival and how that creates interactions between those who wouldn't normally do so can be an interesting story to tell, but I don't feel that was very developed beyond the assumption that if they happen to spend enough time together they will end up in a romantic relationship, almost out of a narrative habit.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Anthony, I agree that the narrative around the assault felt...like the author was trying to show shades of grey and nuance with a subject matter I'm not sure she quite had enough mastery to convey honestly. I think she was in part hoping to show that Vikings weren't *all* about raping and pillaging, and to forgive him she needed a victim to see the good in him, which is just not a topic I think is worth dragging characters and readers through assault to explore, particularly with a victim as far outside Brandr's culture as Omat is.

Rosie, "narrative habit" is a very polite way of saying that, I like it! And I agree, it would have been lovely for me to see friendship/brotherhood without needing to go the route of romantic love. I think it again cast a lot of doubts on what the author was trying to accomplish elsewhere.

But I also know that some folks really, really loved this romance, and I'm hoping they'll say what stuck out for them!

[Anthony]

Regarding the difference in culture, I also felt like there were missed opportunities in both directions there. Omat had lived such a profoundly isolated life, with an incredibly specific view of pretty much everything having to do with how the world works, how nature works, etc. And Omat had no knowledge of the vaguest possibility of there even being other kinds of people in the world. And yet, there seemed to be no real dealing with such a disruption to the paradigm in which Omat had lived. I don’t mean to suggest it should have gone any particular way; just that I’m not convinced Brodsky really plumbed the depths of what such a paradigm shift might have really felt like.

[Valerie]

There was so much that I loved about this book. I enjoyed it so much that when my library loan expired part way through the book, I decided to purchase it rather than wait several weeks for my renewal to come through.

Like others, I found the Inuit mythology fresh and interesting.

I also agree that Omat was the most richly drawn character. Their struggle was harsh, yet inspiring.

Sounds like I may be in the minority on this point, but I liked the way that the author wove together the Inuit and Norse mythologies. Indeed, the Ragnarok felt sudden and disjointed from the rest of the narrative, but overall I liked the interpretation.

Could the concept of ice giants have originally stemmed from prehistoric contact with the forebears of the Inuit? I know this is not the first book to have played upon commonality of deities and how belief plays a part in their persistence. Still, it made me think and I enjoyed it.

Of course, I wanted more of the Inuit experience.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

To answer Allison’s question about what I loved about the romance, honestly it was just the two of them accepting and finding acceptance in each other.

I don’t want to call myself an odd duck- but I feel like I just struggle to find people IRL who would tolerate me and all my craziness. So I’m always happy when the obstacle in a romance isn’t “distance” or “crazy in laws” or “refusal to communicate”.

I’m also not the most critical reader (I’m working on it) so I feel bad that so many had issues with this book, but that’s what I loved about it.

[Gabi]

Sarah wrote: ". so I feel bad that so many had issues with this book, but that’s what I loved about it. ."

Don't feel bad about it! I am grateful that your suggestion got me to read it. It was a rare book where I deeply lived, loved and hated with the story. And I felt such a deep connection to Omat's struggle. It was a profound personal experience for me that I wouldn't have wanted to miss.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Valerie, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I too often like when stories mingle mythologies in a way that mimics the "spread" of our cultural stories. I think I said here, or somewhere, that I really liked it given that the Prose Edda, which is what we have of Norse mythology's roots, did the same thing with Christian and Greek gods. So it felt like a cycle repeating itself.

Sarah, don't ever feel bad about what people do or don't like! We always meet books with our own experiences, and it's impossible for any sentence to be read exactly the same way as all other people.

Thanks for saying what you liked about the romance. I agree, the acceptance and mutual respect was really quite pleasant. I also liked that they didn't expect the other one to change in any culturally significant way.

[Jemppu]

Sarah wrote: "To answer Allison’s question about what I loved about the romance, honestly it was just the two of them accepting and finding acceptance in each other...."

This, indeed. That these two were able to find each other was the crowning aspect.

I'm most typically of the crowd of "why does every relationship have to turn to romance" as well, but here for Omat to have that in the end was so welcome. Felt inspiring to the level I hadn't before realized I needed.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Allison wrote: "Valerie, I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I too often like when stories mingle mythologies in a way that mimics the "spread" of our cultural stories. I think I said here, or somewhere, that I reall..."

Well- I just would have feel bad if it had caused harm or was painful for others to read. After this was voted onto the shelf but before discussion started I read a DNF review on a blogger page who quit at a certain place, and while I dont disagree with them, or fault them or anyone their opinion of any book, I also know I really hadn’t read that particular scene the way they read it. And I also know I wasn’t alone, because there were other comments saying the same. That doesn’t make that particular person wrong, and in fact made me question a lot of my own opinions about the book, but it was just a shock to me because I hadn’t even considered that option.

And I’ve noticed as some of the other reviews trickled in there were a lot of scenes I interpreted completely differently from others. And none of them were even the same scene!

I knew going into it that this was never going to be a book for everyone, but I thought it was going to be due more to content warnings and the slow pacing than that so many scenes could be read so many different ways.

[Jemppu]

Sarah wrote: "...Well- I just would have feel bad if it had caused harm or was painful for others to read. After this was voted onto the shelf but before discussion started I read a DNF review on a blogger page who quit at a certain place, and while I dont disagree with them, or fault them or anyone their opinion of any book, I also know I really hadn’t read that particular scene the way they read it...."

There are lot of strong and contradictory opinions about the book out there, and I just want to say, that if you, or anyone, anyhow identified or connected with Omat's portrayed experience, please, don't let any conflicting comments get to you personally, or in any form discredit your own experience with the story.

I myself at least am thankful that this read came on my radar, and am therefore grateful for the group and any individual involved for bringing that about.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Jemppu wrote: "Sarah wrote: "...Well- I just would have feel bad if it had caused harm or was painful for others to read. After this was voted onto the shelf but before discussion started I read a DNF review on a..."

I think Anna was aware of the book before I came along- but if I did help I’m glad!

And I’m definitely not questioning my experience with the book- I loved it- it was perfect for whatever mood I was in while I was reading it.

It was just an eye opening experience for me overall to have all these different scenes called out and seeing how people interpreted them while knowing that wasn’t how I read them at all.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I think that's a really good tie in to the book, too, Jemppu and Sarah!

Like Omat and Brandr, we see things through our own cultures, experiences and understandings. It's unavoidable that there will be some things that hit us in ways that weren't intended or even in the realm of consciousness of other people.

That's why I wanted to do this discussion thread a bit differently than usual, because it's so easy to speak out of hurt or pain or ignorance or anger (and I'm definitely talking about myself here) and miss so many things that are important or beautiful or kind to other people. In a book with so many delicate intersections, I really want to give everyone time and space to think about what moved them or what hurt, and help affirm each other as kindly as we can.

Also, I think that folks overall have had a lot of great insight and really been so thoughtful, so thank you all for proving again that our book club is capable of having nuanced conversation. It means a lot to me that so many are willing to share and to listen.

[Jemppu]

Allison wrote: ...That's why I wanted to do this discussion thread a bit differently than usual..."

This was a sage move, and much appreciated.

[Andy]

Jemppu wrote: "This was a sage move, and much appreciated."

Agreed. Given multiple things about the subject matter, from the start this seemed like a book with the potential for some especially reader-specific reactions.

Allison wrote: "Sarah, don't ever feel bad about what people do or don't like!"

Hear, hear. For every book I've ever loved, there are people who dislike it...sometimes tens of thousands of them (*cough* The Name of the Wind *cough*). Sometimes the negative reactions puzzle me, but I've accepted that not every book is for every reader.