Gene Wolfe Fans discussion
When does Severian lie and why?
I've been curious about this as well. Personally I don't buy it. That is, I don't trust the allegations of Severian's dishonesty. I don't rely on allegations of his unreliability. I've seen some attempts to catalog his supposed deceptions, but they all seem rather trivial to me; even a writer of Wolfe's caliber will have some unintended errors.
It does seem like a badly argued assertion, though I don't think the issue is dishonesty so much as omissions, whether they are dishonest or just "mistakes" by the narrator. Wolfe is a master of narrative ellipsis, after all.
Yes! Thank you Alex. You are jogging my memory to a discussion on the Urth list when I raised this question a few years ago. Readers are impressed by the complexity of the narrative voice, and throw around the word "unreliable" with some recklessness. Severian is unreliable if you are relying on him to tell a straightforward story where everything is just what it appears to be. That's not what "unreliable narrator" connotes to me (see Pale Fire) but I think that is the prime source of this confusion.
Here's an example from Shadows of the New Sun: Wolfe on Writing / Writers on Wolfe by Peter Wright. "That makes me think of Severian's conversation with Valeria in The Shadow of the Torturer, in which Valeria enquires about a tower of pain and torment where everyone who enters dies in agony. Severian answers her question literally, and says that there is no such place, that it is a myth. Because he takes her question literally, he is correct to say that not everyone who enters the Matachin Tower does die; some are released, some are never released and go mad, but Severian's answer indicates that he speaks to his advantage. The reader is left to assume that he writes to his own advantage, too."
But does Severian lie to his readers? I must say I've never noticed any such lie, though there are a number of elisions, such as the 'missing pages' covering the narrative after the Piteous Gate incident. My own feeling (after three readings, each more careful than the last) is that Severian is always honest with the reader but may not have all the answers himself — or at least, did not have them when he was at the point he has reached in the story he is now telling. For dramatic reasons, it is necessary for the author — Wolfe — to hold back on his revelations sometimes, but the intention to mislead is Wolfe's, never Severian's.
It matters a lot, by the way, as the following passage from the The Greenwood Encyclopedia of Science Fiction and Fantasy makes clear:
"There are two fundamentally opposed readings of The Book of the New Sun, or, one might say, two radically different universes in which its story takes place. If Severian's intuitions about his nature are to be believed, Wolfe has created a profoundly Christian vision of the nature of reality... If Severian, on the other hand is both a liar and [redacted to omit spoiler], then the universe of The Book of the New Sun is a cold place indeed; and Severian — like all other mortals — is a mere strutter on the stage."
Sorry for the long post. I'm sure somebody from the revived Urth list will be along soon to tell us all how wrong we are.
Palmyrah wrote: "Here's an example from Shadows of the New Sun: Wolfe on Writing / Writers on Wolfe by Peter Wright. "That makes me think of Severian's conversation with Valeria in The Shadow of the..."
You're right, I was only thinking of times when Severian supposedly lies to the readers. Thanks for the links.
This relates to the previous movement on the piteous gate, but here is a little excerpt from a much larger paper in which I discuss two areas Severian glosses over. His other lie is simply "we obey" - his later admission of sex with Thecla, her merciful death, and sparing Cyriaca are all pretty big examples of disobedience, though of course he wants others to obey him.Two of the most frustrating elisions in the narrative involve the thing which awakens and lumbers below the Saltus mine and the narrative break at the Piteous Gate between Shadow of the Torturer and Claw of the Conciliator, where we are given only a brief glance at the disturbance before picking up again in Saltus as Severian is set to perform another public execution. The lumbering omission at Saltus is frustrating because Severian says that he believes he “now” knows what was stirred to waking in the mine, but we are never given any clear indication besides a vague feeling that it is related his being somehow called to an engagement by Abaia himself. However, both of these events actually involve servitors of the Autarch. In the wall at the Piteous Gates, the Autarch “employs [man-beasts] in duties too laborious for men, or for which men cannot be trusted” (Citadel XX 828).
Immediately upon his exile north, Severian drops hints of many events already going on in the background. The lochage has indicated that there has been a disturbance on the water on the day that Severian is exiled, and when Severian returns to Nessus at the culmination of The Citadel of the Autarch, we receive a story of a giant ship in the night and a mighty voice giving instructions on the water – almost an incarnation of the giant naviscaput found in “The Tale of the Student and His Son.” While Severian is probably ignorant of his importance as a journeyman torturer, he is already being watched by ape like creatures from the very first volume. When he recovers from the duel with Agilus, in his visions on the cusp of sleep he sees:
An ape with the head of a dog ran down the aisle, paused at my bed to look at me, then ran on. That seemed no stranger to me than the light that, passing through a window I could not see, fell upon my blanket. ...For a moment I thought I was dreaming still: the cynocephalus was climbing upon the crenelations of the wall … when I threw a bit of rubbish at it, it bared teeth as impressive as Triskele's. (Shadow, XXXIII 224-225)
The ape-like descriptions of Inire and later revelations show that Severian is already being watched, as even Rudesind the curator has been employed by the Autarch’s advisor. The disturbance on the lake, the presence of the dog-faced ape, and the appearance of Triskele and Malrubius as aquastors all before reaching the gate in The Shadow of the Torturer highlight the attention given to Severian's journey by the sea forces of Abaia, the Hierodules, and the Autarch himself through Inire.
The disturbance at the Piteous Gate is one of the largest narrative gaps, and Severian later dreams of uhlans on the road outside the gate with energy lances. He is separated from Dorcas and Dr. Talos' troupe by the crowd, but we should mention a few other details. Severian notes that “to enter the gate was to enter a mine, and I could not suppress a shudder.” The pandours of the autarch are stationed in the wall and Dr Talos says that “I do not doubt that there are among them many who search for some particular miscreant, and that if they were to see the one they seek, they would sally out and lay hold of him” (Shadow, XXXV 240). Here, in explaining the wall, Jonas tells a story of a woman who returns from the stars with only black beans, who threatens to “cast them into the sea and so put an end to the world” if she is not obeyed. These beans could very well be the genesis of the sea powers which have since plagued the Earth, or hostile alien life-forms such as those Hethor will employ, and it seems the creatures in the wall are there to defend the city against them. The question is – what incites the riot? Is it the creatures of Hethor? The escape of Beuzec, who will appear as Hethor's companion by The Claw of the Conciliator? It seems unlikely that the disturbance has anything to do with Baldanders or Dr. Talos, since they have passed through many gates with no problem, and many other people expect to pass without incident when something disturbs the status quo. (The road upon which people cannot travel begins outside the gate).
Based on the information we have, and the chapter titled “Hethor”, who will come to shun Jonas perhaps in fear of being recognized, we must speculate that either Severian's presence, the powers of the sea, or the aliens of Hethor have manifested themselves, and the pandours and uhlans of the Autarch have acted to quell the disturbance, in so doing creating panic. Luckily, the mine at Saltus offers fewer possibilities. Certainly we must ascribe to either Severian or one of his predecessor Autarchs a definite reluctance in describing the extent of the defenses at his disposal, in the wall at the Piteous Gate or elsewhere.
In the mine at Saltus, the lumbering steps begin after Severian’s struggle with the man-apes who are later revealed to be under the control of the Autarch:
If an ogre were to eat of the very legs of the world, the grinding of his teeth would make just such a noise. The bed of the stream (where I still stood) trembled under me, and the water, which had been so clear, received a fine burden of silt, so that it looked as though a ribbon of smoke wound through it. From far below I heard a step that might have been the walking of a tower on the Final Day, when it is said all the cities of Urth will stride forth to meet the dawn of the New Sun … What creature it was we had called from the roots of the continent I think I now know. But I did not know then, and … I only knew that there was something far beneath us before which the man apes, with all the terror of their appearance and their numbers, scattered like sparks before a wind. (Claw, VI 286)
These two elisions (the Piteous Gate and the Saltus Mine) are actually related when Severian asks Jonas about both of them, after considering that all the explanations in the brown book are childish and simple: “I'd like your opinion of the footsteps. Everyone knows about Erebus and Abaia and the other beings in the sea who will come to land someday. … The thing I heard underground … was that one of them?” Severian also asks about the soldiers in the wall, saying Jonas had “implied they had been stationed there to resist Abaia and the others. Are the man-apes soldiers of the same kind? And if they are, what good can human-sized fighters do when our opponents are as large as mountains?” (Claw, VIII 297)
After this scene, we should look backward to note the parallels with Baldanders’ dream as he shared a bed with Severian. Baldanders claims that he never dreams, yet one of his first lines of dialogue describes one: “Of caverns below, where stone teeth dripped blood … Of arms dismembered found on sanded paths, and things that shook chains in the dark” (Shadow, XV 113). While this is ominous, we must remember whose nightmare it is. (In his fight with the man-apes in that stony mine, Severian has cut off many limbs, including the arm of the ape which saves him from Agia in hopes of getting closer to the Claw). While Baldanders is a creature who aspires to the size and power of Abaia, if his dream was at all inspired by Severian, it must either resonate with the torments in the Matachin Tower or some power that Severian will be able to bring against the creatures of the sea. Baldanders' nightmares should not stem from his own nature, but from some future presentiment of Severian as his nemesis.
The man-apes are actually servants of the Autarch who guard a great treasure – perhaps one of these treasures is a dormant line of defense, a soldier who can fight the giants of the sea on their own scale, if human sized fighters have opponents who are as large as mountains. In Citadel of the Autarch, Severian sees a walking tower in battle: “Far behind it loomed a machine that flashed fire, a machine that was like a tower walking” (Citadel, XXII 847) and within a few pages he hears “a walk heavier than Baldanders's and more slow. I opened my mouth to cry for help, then closed it again, thinking I might call upon myself something more terrible than that I had once waked in the mine of the man-apes” (Citadel, XXIII 849). While this is just the walk of the Autarch's elephantine steed, the close juxtaposition of the footsteps (a giant servant of the Autarch), the thing in the mine, and the tower walking, as well as Baldanders' nightmare, all seem to indicate that this thing must be involved with the war between Abaia and the humans – but given that the Autarch commands the man-apes, who guard the treasure, perhaps this is the method humanity can actually fight the giants of the sea – a mechanical monstrosity. It could be that the chains which shake in the dark, even though they seem to indicate something breaking free, could actually be the mechanisms and gears of its mighty locomotion – even though we think of chains to bind and contain, a vast machine might very well use them to move. The other option, which the Autarch Severian has less reason to conceal lest it be to simply avert terror, is that it is another of Abaia's ilk which has been imprisoned, such as the never described Arioch, but these creatures are supposed to be too large for land, as the undine proves when she takes a step towards Severian in The Claw of the Conciliator. Even though Severian fears it when he first encounters it, much like the man-apes, perhaps this thundering step can be bent to the will of the Autarch and the Increate.
It seems that the true omissions of the narrative usually involve the keys to the Autarch's secular authority – the details of the wall's security and the hidden hordes of his treasure buried perhaps to insure the defense of the commonwealth in places where those tools cannot be corrupted or destroyed until they become necessary.
the page numbers above are from the SFBC one volume Book of the New Sun, by the way, if they confused anyone.
Marc wrote: "This relates to the previous movement on the piteous gate, but here is a little excerpt from a much larger paper in which I discuss two areas Severian glosses over. His other lie is simply "we obe..."Thanks, you’ve given me a lot to chew on, and I’ll keep those points in mind as I re-read.
Yeah, I was unclear but when I asked when he lied, I was specifically talking about him as a narrator, supposedly lying to his readers.
For UotNS, so far I’ve read up to “The Captain” and put the book aside for a little while. I did the same thing with CotA when the deposited him on the seashore , so the ‘high’ from the conflict resolution could fade and I could take my time reading the rest.
In UotNS, at this point Severian’s got the White Fountain and it’s on its way, so it seems to me the conflict of the story is over and all the rest is just setting stuff up in the past and hopefully answering more questions.
I’m re-reading the play now, and your analysis has got some merit, but that would imply that Abaia is hoping to benefit from the New Sun’s arrival, but in the books Abaia seems intent on preventing the New Sun.
I’d surmised that the Autarch and the Hierodules were watching Severian, but hadn’t connected the creature in the sickroom with Father Inire. I’ll have to think that over, but regarding when exactly Abaia becomes aware of Severian I still think my original theory has some merit. The undine saves Severian in the beginning, but from what you said that’s a future version of the undine who’s gone back in time, since she doesn’t seem to be aware of this when she tempts him in CotC. Within the timeline of the books, I don’t think Abaia and Co are aware of Severian or his importance until he starts using the Claw.
Your theory about what the creature in the man-apes’ cave makes sense. I’d assumed the man-apes were either fleeing or going to fight the giant monster, but you’re right: Severian was leery about revealing details of the Autarch’s defenses. I’d noticed he never reprinted the words of authority.
And yeah, I should’ve connected Baldanders’ dream to a premonition of the man-apes’ cave, just like Severian’s dream was a premonition of Baldanders’ apparent undersea adventures…
But regarding the nature of the underground monster, I’d still assumed it was some kind of evil creature when Idra mentioned that her kind live under the sea and under the earth.
It’s one of the most addicting and frustrating things about these books: most of what we have to go on are associations that Wolfe – through Severian – makes.
Why not just come out and say what the creature’s purpose is, if he’s already given that much detail my mentioning it’s presence? Why not just say that it was Father Inire he saw in the sickroom, or have him mention it in the letter in CotA?
I love these books, but sometimes it seems to me that Wolfe is indulging in obscurity for obscurity’s sake.
Here is an indirect and hinting spoiler, but I will avoid the big reveal. Abaia will get a huge huge benefit when the white fountain arrives when you think about what type of creature he is. I don't want to spoil the ending, but eschatology and genesis and the burial and resurrection of Dorcas (and the first and second chapters of shadow) all hint at what kind of salvation is coming.
They want the new sun to be their creature (like Baldanders might have been if he made the cut as new sun)
Wolfe's cryptic style is frustrating at times but he almost plays fair if you look up every allusion. Have you read fifth head of cerberus? I finally figured out what was going on in the middle novella and all the details suddenly came into place (even though every published writing on it was a slight misreading - no one had noticed the life cycles of the two aliens, one a parasite, one with a larval, imitative, and sessile carapace tree stage.) read long sun and short sun - short sun especially is amazing, and a similar (but not identical) alien life cycle helps understand exactly what's going on once you figure it out.
One more thing: the claw is a symbol, even if it is a thorn steeped in (his) blood, and Severian's first resurrection (if not his own) is of Triskele ("the smallest of those dead") way before he ever gets the claw. Note the ambiguous verbiage identifying Triskele as the smallest of those dead. Also remember the parable of Ymar, who sits under a tree and meets all kinds of people, sages and strong men and rich women, before smiling and following a dog.
The mixing of that thorn and blood also echoes the two dreams of Severian's youth revealed in chapter two of shadow: a light is coming, and it will engender life in a brush so that it will run up a tree (the green man). Note the way the demons and the contessa talk in the play: the winter killed stalks of man mixing with new seed , etc. very "gardening" imagery. In the story of the boy called Frog, the alien Spring Wind is born when his mother lays with a plant and the juices get inside her, before he gives birth to Romulus and Remus (fish and frog (which also is the meaning of Mowgli)). Mars is their father, with rhea silvanus (which wolfe translates as bird of the wood). This mixing of vegetation and human might be somewhat alien in nature if we take that story as applicable to the entire tale.
Before we get too far off topic, can anyone actually point to a deliberate lie that Severian tells the reader?
Omissions. Ambiguous rape of Jolenta, sex with Thecla not mentioned until later, claiming his memory is perfect then saying things like no matter how hard he tried he couldn't remember what thecla's dinner was scheduled to be (same as his every day plus mutton, I think). No obvious "lies" but perhaps hinting his purpose is to secure obedience for his autarchy in writing his tract while saying he doesn't expect to find readers (but expecting a wide audience anyway). Errors in who grabbed the gun at the Vodalus scene, but could be authorial slips as well.
There are very few lies in Wolfe, just a failure to reveal motive or cause and effect that make narrative sense.
In other words, I agree with your assessment earlier, Palmyrah. No outright lies, but ambiguous motive and shady narrative strategies. He does compare writing to an execution where he has to position himself so those who want a painful death for the victim and those who want a merciful one are both fooled, a somewhat inimical attitude to take towards the audience which implies "diversion" or sleight of hand.
But the man still gets decapitated either way, so not an outright lie.
The claim of a sexual relationship between Jolenta and Dorcas is out of the blue and just seems jarringly wrong somehow- could be sev's misperception (or not)
Marc wrote: "Wolfe's cryptic style is frustrating at times but he almost plays fair if you look up every allusion. Have you read fifth head of cerberus? I finally figured out what was going on in the middle nov..."I've read Cerberus, but I need to read it again. I was districted the first time, wondering if a certain theory of mine was true (looks like it wasn't).
SPOILER:
When Five says that Marsch is an abo, then said he and his father were 'alone', I'd assumed VTR killed them both, destroyed the real father's body with the lab equipment, passed himself off as Five and ended up sentenced for the crime. My theory would only have worked if the events of VTR occurred chronolically before the first story, but they didn't, so I was left at square one.
Marc wrote: "Omissions. Ambiguous rape of Jolenta, sex with Thecla not mentioned until later, claiming his memory is perfect then saying things like no matter how hard he tried he couldn't remember what thecla..."Thanks, but now the question of why pops up...who is he writing this for? If it's for his subjects, why show himself in such a poor light? Or give away so many secrets?
The events of 'VRT' (not 'VTR') do occur before those of the first story in the book.
Palmyrah wrote: "The events of 'VRT' (not 'VTR') do occur before those of the first story in the book."Are you sure? I thought I read references to events in the first story in the last one.
According to Severian himself, the book is a kind of message in a bottle. He doesn't know who will read it, or when in time — past, present or future — that reader exists. He's honest because it makes no difference to him; whatever the reader thinks or does can have no effect on him.Any motive deeper than this would be speculation. Severian, by the time he writes his testament, has travelled far and done great things. He knows that he will be remembered (by those that survive him) and that his name will be both blessed and cursed. Maybe he is just impelled, as others in his position have been, to offer his own version of events as a corrective to all the fanciful tales and lies he knows will be made up about him — and also, perhaps, to exonerate himself. By the end of UoTNS, he is in great need of exoneration.
VRT has before and after. Written after the meeting of "Marsch" and Number five with jail scenes, but with scraps from the journal well before the meeting on St Anne
http://ultan.org.uk/variance-reductio...My long essay on fifth head. clute et al did not quite figure out the life cycles of the two alien species involved.
Which is all Robert needs for his theory, I think!
My long essay on fifth head. clute et al did not quite figure out the life cycles of the two alien species involved.As you're aware from the Urth mailing list, I believe there was only one alien species. Will read your essay and Clute's, though.
As to lies, if I recall right, Severian lies about his relationship with Thecla. At first, and for some time, he is adamant that the two of them never crossed the line imposed upon him by Master Gurloes; he and Thecla flirted, but no more. Then he reveals they kissed, but no more. Finally, he reveals they were lovers. I don't have the books with me to find the actual passages, but I believe this was an example of Severian caught in an out-and-out lie. I can't think of any importance it has except to show us, the readers, that he is capable of lying to us.
Wolfe does this in his other works I've read (Wizard Knight, Sorcerer's House) as well. The narrator can be unreliable. Why? One function it serves is certainly to add a little uncertainty and fluidity to the tale. It opens doors for interpretations, for the text to be read in more than one way.
It's a pity you don't have the quotes for this. Did Severian lie outright about it, or did he simply suppress any mention of it?
Michael wrote: "As to lies, if I recall right, Severian lies about his relationship with Thecla. At first, and for some time, he is adamant that the two of them never crossed the line imposed upon him by Master Gu..."Or it could simply be that he didn't want to go into detail about that while he was mentally reliving his disgrace at the Matachin Tower. And can it really be considered a lie if he does eventually come clean?
And you're talking about Wolfe's motivations. I was thinking about the character Severian's motivations for lying.
He lies to his masters about Thecla but it is just another omission from his manuscript as far as readers are concerned. He glosses over it- reluctant to speak about it in Severian only memories but not coy at all about it in post Severian-Thecla gestalt recollection. Even though they are both narrators, perhaps the Severian-only memories are more tinged with Severian's reluctance to admit he disobeyed his masters so quickly and with such little fear. However ... There is the hint that she dismisses him as "rather a sweet boy" and doesn't take him seriously as a man contributing to killing her rather than trying harder to free her.
Marc wrote: "He lies to his masters about Thecla but it is just another omission from his manuscript as far as readers are concerned. He glosses over it- reluctant to speak about it in Severian only memories bu..."About that gestalt, on reflection I surmise he was mentally reliving parts of his life as he was writing about them, so the 'Severian' sections in the first two books feel more like just him, while the Sev/Thecla portions feel like both of them, rather than the whole series written by Sev/Thecla or Sev/Thecla/Legion. That could be a reason some readers think he's lying to them.
Maybe I'm too dense, but I couldn't spot what I could call deliberate attempts of the character misleading the readers.
Marc wrote: "He lies to his masters about Thecla but it is just another omission from his manuscript as far as readers are concerned.And this, surely, is Severian's claim: it isn't that he does not or cannot lie (he is, after all, Autarch of the Commonwealth, and you can't be any kind of ruler without telling a few tall ones from time to time), but that he doesn't lie to the reader.
About this Thecla business: I cannot recall any point at which Sev specifically says 'I didn't' and then later admits he did. What a pity no-one can seem to find the relevant passages. Until someone does, I shall continue to hold that Severian never lies — to his readers — although he may report himself as lying to others within the story.
What I mean is that Severian may legitimately tell the reader 'I lied to Master Gurloes about Triskele' or something similar, and it will be true; and the fact that Severian admits lying doesn't make him any less honest as a narrator. Honest, but unreliable.
Also consider the possibility that Thecla and the various dead autarchs who inhabit his mind as revenants may occasionally conceal things from one another, but reveal them to the reader through Severian's words.
YOU'RE ALL WRONG. The alzabo always anyone to absorb the memories of others. Severian is unique, possible, his prefect memory means he becomes the person he eats. We don't have Vodalus' POV, but he's eaten more people than Sev, if it effected him in the same way he would be crazy. My theory about all these false memories and misinterpretations is, Sev is eating Sev's from other time lines. When he can remember things, and how he remembers that, is always different, because the book is the account of many different Severian's New Sun quest. Sometimes its Jonas he asks the question, sometimes its Talos. Some times Rouche is the leader, some times its Drote. All of its conditioning him, programming him, to be the New Sun. Its all a play, he's the only player, the universe is a set up to make him into a certain man. Why that is is more complex than when he "lies" or when he doesn't.Here is a little bit that might prove my point. Why is Severian such a good horse rider? He grow up in Nessus, and probably didn't ride a horse up till he left the city. But by Citadel, a few months later, he can tame horses, and battle along side skilled riders. What if alzabo treatments could be precise enough, that he's only feed the memory of certain skills. In Shadow, when he talks with Ultan, they talk eating a finger, if that would give them a fraction of the memories. Just cut out the part that's only horse riding, put it in a pickled duck egg. Than Severian is the greatest rider ever, and can finish the New Sun quest.
(I was a lot drunk when i wrote this.)
(I was a lot drunk when i wrote this.)Maybe you should edit it now you're sober. Then we may have a better idea of what you mean.
Charles wrote: "YOU'RE ALL WRONG. The alzabo always anyone to absorb the memories of others. Severian is unique, possible, his prefect memory means he becomes the person he eats. We don't have Vodalus' POV, but he..."Okay, but the burden's on you to substantiate your assertion: how's he getting all these body parts from other versions of himself and who's feeding them to him? And when?
The hierodules are the ones trying to shape Severian into the New Sun. The New Sun being the leader that shapes (torturers, evolves) the post flood Urth civilization into that will create the hierodules. When he was growing up, all of Sev's food was given to him. Through out his journey, he's eating all the time. Maybe the pickled duck's egg he had in Saltus is what learnt him some equestrian skills.My booze level was just a joke. I stand by what I wrote before, accept no one here is wrong. Him having false memories from other quantum versions of himself just add to the mystery. He's certainly also omitting information. Or, in one time line he didn't sleep with Thecla, and in another he did.
Charles wrote: "The hierodules are the ones trying to shape Severian into the New Sun. The New Sun being the leader that shapes (torturers, evolves) the post flood Urth civilization into that will create the hiero..."Sure, it's possible, but so is anything else. From what I've read, there doesn't seem to be enough evidence to back up that hypothesis, at least that it's happening by ingestion, and it's entirely possible to learn many of his skills he demonstates. There's also a possible explanation for his discrepencies: he's re-living this stuff as he writes it. Thus in early parts of the books he calls the Hierodules 'cacogens,' but later decides he won't use that word again (so why use it when writing about his life afterward)
On the other hand, I think it possible that some memories or instances of his past life may be influencing him. How he takes one look at Agia and 'loves' her. Those chance encounters with Balanders and Dorcas.
Re-reading SotT and the play in CotC, I find myself casting Dorcas and Agia in the roles of the two women following the First Man guy.
Cacogen is just world for alien, off worlder. Heathor's monsters are all cacogens, so is the Alzabo. In Claw, the first time anyone says Hierodule is Jonas saying he's leaving to seek them. Than Sev thinks he's never heard the term before. After that I'm pretty he uses later in Sword referring to other aliens. Need to reread. Sorry just being pedantic.(This paragraph got weird) Eve and Lilith being clones of Adam is a theme in New Sun and Fifthhead. Severian and his sister are twins, clones, same thing with Agia and Agilus. I never got the impression that Severian looked down on their incest, that even that incest is a taboo on Urth. I'm not a huge expert on genetics, but if someone could be their own father, and than conceived with their mother again, what would that do? Maybe the baby Dorcas died giving birth too was Dorcas! Anyhow, yea, Dorcas is Eve and Agia is Lilith. The Cain and Able here would be Severian and Seveian, the Lictor and the Conciliator respectfully.
This lie is easy to judge as indefensible, I think. In "Sword", in the chapter "The People of the Lake", Sev says that he will reveal a secret about the Guild:"And the secret is only that we torturers obey." [1]
Codswollop. We obey...except when we're told not to bed the client but we do anyway. Except when we are told that we must carry out the client's sentence but show mercy in the form of a kitchen knife. Except when the boss tells us to choke the harlot and throw her over the wall but we let her escape. Sev does what he wants. He tells us what he wants, and he's blind to the fact that he's driven by his own agenda first. He's a puppet on a string...but he doesn't know that...but wants us to believe that he is nonetheless.
[1]Wolfe, Gene (1994-10-15). Sword & Citadel: The Second Half of 'The Book of the New Sun': The Second Half of the Book of the New Sun (p. 169). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.
William wrote: "This lie is easy to judge as indefensible, I think. In "Sword", in the chapter "The People of the Lake", Sev says that he will reveal a secret about the Guild:"And the secret is only that we tort..."
Yeah, and he admits he's failed as a torturer: he hasn't kept his oaths and he knows he'll be punished if caught.
His failure there and his actions afterward is intriguing. Interesting that he argues so passionately to defend the Guild to Dorcas at the Duck's Nest...then obliterates it in "Citidel". What's that motivation about? Part of me believes it's nothing more than the reaction I'd have if they made me World High School Principal... I'd eliminate geometry class :-)
William wrote: "His failure there and his actions afterward is intriguing. Interesting that he argues so passionately to defend the Guild to Dorcas at the Duck's Nest...then obliterates it in "Citidel". What's tha..."Well, the justification was prior to the Archon's party, his flight and weird quest, all his revelations, and the glimpse of a path to the New Sun. So naturally he felt a little differently by then.
Gene is 85. Think we'll get a Rosetta Stone when (forstall the day) he passes?
i don't think these books should have a rosetta stone. .. but i know if Gene kept notes I would not fear their revelations, as some illogical and tenuous a-textual critics should. bwahahahahahaha.
It would be out of character for him to leave one. Unless it was deliberately ambiguous, ostensibly self-contradictory and utterly misleading.
Palmyrah wrote: "It would be out of character for him to leave one. Unless it was deliberately ambiguous, ostensibly self-contradictory and utterly misleading."Perhaps in the form of a novel, or accounts written by various characters, each with their own reasons to lie or embellish?
The two most important chapters in New Sun are "On High Paths" and "The Key to the Universe", where Severian explains most thoroughly what the novel is exactly about. Torturer is evolution, as the title "Shadow of the Torturer" applies, God is the torturer, the power of which all others are but a shadow. When Severian says "And the secret is only that we torturers obey." he means this in the context of "If as is often said, the world is ordered to some plan (whether one formed prior to its creation or one derived during the billion aeons of its existence by the inexorable logic of order and growth makes no difference) [...]" that evolution follows the path of least resistance, an ordered progression from nothing to cosmic civilization. Fate. Whether or not this negates free will isn't important when talking about Severian. Severian doesn't lie. He has perfect memory. Inconsistencies in his story are from him having memories that aren't exactly his. Recall his dream on the first page of Claw "their faces were more akin than the faces of brothers." Severian has the memories of himself from other timelines. Severian is the New Sun because he has perfect memory, his life is being corrected to make him into exactly what the hierodules need to recreate themselves. When the New Sun comes, Severian will be Adam to this civilization, which his experiences will shape to be one that expands and tortures the universe and creates the hierodules.Now how Silk brings the Whorl back in time and is himself Typhon is another subject...
Gene Wolfe Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Sense of an Ending (other topics)The Sense of an Ending (other topics)
Inversions (other topics)
The Murder of Roger Ackroyd (other topics)
Herzog (other topics)
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So when is he lying and for what purpose?