THE Group for Authors! discussion
Publishing and Promoting
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The Numbers Thread - What Works and What Doesn't
New information!10/23(Fri)-10/26(Sun): 49 copies given away (book has no reviews)
This is significantly more than last weekend (34) and significantly more than the miserable 28 copies on the Sunday-Tuesday run from the week before that, but the increase over the previous weekend is suggestive to me.
It could just be random fluctuation, but I think there was some sort of slump in mid-October. Does anyone else have information to support this? Sales/giveaways/readership down for the last few weeks?
Well, I'm going to plow on ahead logging my data here...10/31(Fri)-11/2(Sun): 35 copies
This continues to contribute to the idea that sales/giveaways are diminished this time of year. The month of October was pretty bad.
EDIT: I should note that this was the worst Friday start I've ever had.
T.H. wrote: "Judy - I agree, but I also think that any book that still has me thinking about it days later and looking for the next book by that author is worthy of 4-5 stars. It may not be "amazing" in the sam..."For me 5 stars means the books has to be brilliant and thoroughly absorbing. If I've really enjoyed it I'll give it 4 and anything average or lower gets 3* or lower. I agree that 5 stars are handed out far too easily. I'd rather see 5* and know that it's going to be a book that's a cut above the norm.
Brigitta wrote: "Has anyone tried the Amazon pre-order campaign? Mine has nine days to go but I don't see the purpose. I don't see where Amazon promotes the pre-released books for Indie authors. Am I missing it?Br..."
I read somewhere that if your book is doing well in the pre-order campaign then it already starts to go up the charts in anticipation of the Sales so I think that's part of the benefit. But I could be wrong!
So maybe I've stumbled across this thread at just the right time! My book Cry From The Grave is coming to the end of it's 5 day Free KDP promotion and I have to say that the download results have been pretty amazing. It's currently sitting at No. 10 in the Amazon Top 100 Free Kindle and has had 4,5000 copies downloaded. Today I noticed 2 new Reviews which I felt was quite quick. It's all trial & error. I don't expect to suddenly start selling thousands but what I hope is that it spreads the word further afield re my book for when the next one comes out and hopefully I will get some more reviews! We'll see.
Barbara wrote: "I am doing a Kindle Countdown Deal now. As far as I can tell Amazon does nothing to let folks know about it. The top sellers list is about impossible to find. What a waste."I agree Barbara. My Kindle Select Free promo has one more day to run (out of 5), has had over 4000 downloads so far and is No. 10 in Amazon's Top 100 Free Kindle Chart. Yet it's impossible to find Amazon's Top 100 Free Chart via their search engine! The lists that come up aren't the Top 100 at all and half the books aren't free. What's the use of that? I've fed this back to them and I await their response! Maybe more of us should complain as readers that we can't find this Chart listing? I'm happy to share my marketing techniques (re other discussions here). I went from Friday-Tuesday and over that period I daily put messages out on FB, Twitter and in the Goodreads Free Offer discussion group, with related links. I emailed various friends and family asking them to share my Link on FB and Twitter if they felt so inclined. I don't have massive followings on social media and I've been amazed at the numbers downloaded.
Bearing all the above in mind, my big question is how on earth have 4500 people discovered my book? It just doesn't add up.
Carolyn wrote: "So maybe I've stumbled across this thread at just the right time! My book Cry From The Grave is coming to the end of it's 5 day Free KDP promotion and I have to say that the download results have ..."Can I ask about a few more specifics? Did the campaign start slow and pick up speed or start quick? And did you do anything to promote the giveaway?
Hi Andrew, looking at the numbers, it started with just over 500 on the first day, 1000 on the 2nd, 1500 on the 3rd, 1600 on the 4th and finally a pretty massive 2100 on the last day (plus 172 today where people obviously managed to sneak in quickly before it stopped!) That's an approx total of nearly 7000 downloads over 5 days and the highest slot it got to was No. 4 in the Top 100 Free. Interestingly, it's also gone up to 4,399 in Kindle Paid which is a big rise from before the promo. I'm sure that won't last but hopefully it's spread my name out there a bit more.Re promoting. I basically put out daily messages on FB and Twitter, asking people to RT and 'share' the promotion, and I put it on the Goodreads free thread in the discussion groups. That was it - make of it what you will. :)
Carolyn wrote: "Hi Andrew, looking at the numbers, it started with just over 500 on the first day, 1000 on the 2nd, 1500 on the 3rd, 1600 on the 4th and finally a pretty massive 2100 on the last day (plus 172 toda..."I asked because that's a definite sign of ramping up over time. I've never had a campaign where I got 500 giveaways on the first day - I should say that I don't use Facebook and Twitter - but it nevertheless leads me to wonder if 5-day campaigns are predisposed to larger numbers of giveaway than shorter ones.
Carolyn,I think we are writing the same genre. What price range did you use for ebooks. I just self-published on create space and found so many errors that I have to re=edit the entire book, "Moving Targets Live Longer."
It sounds like you have been successful is marketing.
Can you share any more advice?
Linda
Hi Linda, and good luck with your book. I set my e-book price at £2.56 - not sure whether that's low or high! I don't think I can really add any more to what I said in the above threads. It was just a question of posting on GR, FB and Twitter when I did the promotion. I've had a lot of copies downloaded while it was free, and sales have been up since it went back to being charged for, but that may well not last. The biggest thing is to get the next book out there so that when you do a free promo you can link it to a priced book that people can click on if they like your writing. That's my next goal! :)
Thanks Carolyn. I've started the sequel to the first book but I had to stop and re-edit the first because of so many errors. Thanks for your information. It's always encouraging to hear from other writers who seem to break through the promotion game.Good luck to you on your next.
Linda
My book is a how-to nonfiction of short tips. I keep a running list of typos found in or rephrasings that I'd like to do. That way I have everything I need all in one place to make changes and get the revision online.
Hi Brad. I'm so new to this game that I feel a bit overwhelmed. I'd probably have a better handle on things if I didn't have my day job, but I do need to make a living. I plan to set up a table outside a local bookstore with copies of my book ready to sell. Not sure if that is legal, but if I get arrested at least I'll have some press behind me. Good luck to you.
I'm terrible at marketing myself so my first month's figures are, from what I understand from reading others' experiences, pretty low. About a hundred people have my first book (only a small handful of actual sales, the rest KDP giveaway, no reviews).I knew I was going to have problems even before I self-published, as I wrote a horror book - but wearing fantasy pants - and the uneasy genre mix was going to limit my audience (to say nothing of the fact that both audiences already have so much to choose from).
I've had the best luck for actual sales on sites where people know me a bit from constant posting... sites completely unrelated to literature. I don't try to advertise myself, just leave a link in my bio, and some kind souls have gotten curious. I'm not sure I'd have a chance for that attention on literature sites, with so many people trying to achieve the same goals.
Fortunately, I don't have delusions of ever being a "big" author, I just hope to eventually settle comfortably into my niche (fantasy, extra-dark). Hopefully time, patience, and future novels will kick down some doors where my marketing sense fails me.
I was glad to read the Twitter numbers post on the first page, though. I was wondering how Twitter posts, which disappear so fast and convey so little, could really get the job done. I've read some contradictory reports from authors swearing by a paid Twitter campaign, but with limited funds I don't think it's something I'll try.
Linda wrote: "Hi Brad. I'm so new to this game that I feel a bit overwhelmed. I'd probably have a better handle on things if I didn't have my day job, but I do need to make a living. I plan to set up a table out..."Let us know if you get arrested!
Linda wrote: "Thanks Carolyn. I've started the sequel to the first book but I had to stop and re-edit the first because of so many errors. Thanks for your information. It's always encouraging to hear from other ..."Thanks Linda and good luck with both books. I'm trying to get my head around the plot of my next one which is proving quite a challenge!
Chris - you're going to have to find out where the horror book readers hang out. There may be some groups on Facebook that would help, or perhaps you could put a Google Alert on "horror books" and see where they occur.
Linda - I doubt you'll be arrested, but the book store may ask you to leave. Make sure you have plenty of swag to give out, postcards, balloons, business cards, candy, bookmarks, flyers, etc. All with the ordering address on them. I use a 16 x 20 inch poster of my book cover made up in a picture frame with easel that I use for book signings. It helps to let people quickly see what's happening at your table.
Linda - I doubt you'll be arrested, but the book store may ask you to leave. Make sure you have plenty of swag to give out, postcards, balloons, business cards, candy, bookmarks, flyers, etc. All with the ordering address on them. I use a 16 x 20 inch poster of my book cover made up in a picture frame with easel that I use for book signings. It helps to let people quickly see what's happening at your table.
Bradford wrote: "Chris - you're going to have to find out where the horror book readers hang out. There may be some groups on Facebook that would help, or perhaps you could put a Google Alert on "horror books" and..."I'll look into that. I'm not sure the "pure" horror crowd will embrace my hybrid material, but it certainly can't hurt to find out. Thanks for the advice!
Jane wrote: "Linda wrote: "Hi Brad. I'm so new to this game that I feel a bit overwhelmed. I'd probably have a better handle on things if I didn't have my day job, but I do need to make a living. I plan to set ..."
I'm going to wear my Park Service Ranger shirt and name tag. Maybe even my boots and spurs. I was in the Mounted Patrol Unit. I'll let you know if they handcuffed. Hopefully I'll make the front page.
Carolyn wrote: "Linda wrote: "Thanks Carolyn. I've started the sequel to the first book but I had to stop and re-edit the first because of so many errors. Thanks for your information. It's always encouraging to he..." Glad you found my comments helpful
Bradford, finally information I can actually understand and apply to my arsenal of tricks to get my book noticed. This is great. I will make sure that I have everything you suggested. I'll keep my truck parked close by incase I am asked to leave that area. Fortunately Studio City's main Blvd is loaded with shops and a farmers market on Sunday. People walking everywhere. I'll just move a few shops down the street and set up again. I really appreciate this information. I will keep you informed.
I've enjoyed the marketing part of the book business Linda and continue to add to my bag of tricks too. Would be glad to share some anytime. I'm over in Santa Monica, but it's easier to just chat online.
We're you in a mounted patrol around here? I haven't had anything to do with horses since leaving the farm back in VA 20 years ago, but my memoir from that period is with the agent now.
We're you in a mounted patrol around here? I haven't had anything to do with horses since leaving the farm back in VA 20 years ago, but my memoir from that period is with the agent now.
I was in the Mounted Patrol in Fryman Canyon, Franklin Canyon, Wilacre Park. Studio City to Beverly Hills. Also did a few patrols in Malibu. My memoir of that period is reflected in my book. I lived in Va for one year and still have good friends there. I did a lot of riding in Reston every summer. My parents were farmers as well. I look forward to an on line chat. Take care.
Linda, is this an independent store. If yes, you may want to try talking to the owner about a book signing.
Unfortunately Book Star is owned by Barnes and Noble. I will try to submit my book through them, but I hear it is a very hard sell.
More data:11/7(Fri)-11/9(Sun): 31 copies (book has no reviews)
As I ever, I'm not sure anyone's reading these numbers, but this is a pretty bad result, even by my standards.
I also released a new book on Friday, which got no sales - that's also a pretty mediocre result. All in all, October and November to date have been quite bad for me.
That said, I've devised a (hopefully) cunning plan. My KDP Select enrollment (for most of my books) will renew in early December. I've decided I'm going to put a book up for free every day of the month. Then, I'll start handing out business card-sized cards with the names of my books on them and maybe the dates they'll be free. A friend of mine suggested putting QR codes on them with links to my Amazon page, which I think is a pretty good idea.
I don't think local shops would let me set up a booth or anything, so I'm thinking of going door to door. I may couple this with a modest ad campaign on Goodreads - which I've never tried before - and see what happens.
Andrew wrote: "More data:11/7(Fri)-11/9(Sun): 31 copies (book has no reviews)
As I ever, I'm not sure anyone's reading these numbers, but this is a pretty bad result, even by my standards.
I also released a n..."
Door to door?
Karl wrote: " Not because I believe free give-aways lead to poor reviews (which I do)..."My literary fiction novel was given away, pre-publication, by my publisher, to readers who appear to read Batman, vampire and chic lit (according to Goodreads). These freebee readers have given me the worst reviews, insulted my characters to the point of bullying, and affected my ratings.They are clearly readers who want romance and happy endings when they read. As serious fiction readers buy my book, based on more professional reviews, and word-of-mouth, the reviews have become more articulate and positive. I seriously question giveaways.
When friends write to ask me for a signed book, I offer to replace the book they purchase, and ask them to give their unsigned book to someone they believe will appreciate it. For me, that's the BEST giveaway! They always write to tell me that their friend LOVED it.
Here's one to follow: Robert Bidinotto has bravely laid out his promotion plan to relaunch his first book Hunter here in this blog post:
http://www.readersintheknow.com/blog/...
His goal is to reach the top 20 from his current rank of 250,000 or something so wish him luck!
Some numbers for ya'll from an unknown with a (reportedly) really good book. I had 18 reviews on Amazon (three 4* and the rest 5*). I did two paid (opt-in subscriber) 99-cent promotions about a week apart recently. The first was Ereader News Today (regular spot in fantasy - $15). Sold 32 day of the promotion. 8 the day after (still on 99 cents), 5 the day after at full price. Sales slightly up during the rest of the week but this could have been influenced by the upcoming release of another book in the series. A little over a week later I had the feature spot on Kindle Books and Tips (again 99 cents and the spot costs $100, not genre specific). Sold 41 the first day, 5 the second. Sales slightly better than before for the next week. And this latter promotion coincided with a major local promotion (pretty well-attended physical launch party for another title, local newspaper coverage, significant social media chatter), so all sales can't be assumed to have come through KB&T. Lessons learned: Ereader News Today is doing well. The other titles listed in this period are of good quality. I easily broke even and there wasn't much interference to account for the sales. Kindle Books and Tips has gone downhill from things I had seen reported before. The other titles featured before and after mine had few reviews, amateurish covers and amateurish blurbs. I should have checked that more thoroughly before paying. I mostly went on slightly outdated author reviews of the service. Didn't come close to breaking even with KB&T and I won't be doing that again unless they become a lot more competitive in what they promote. I think their subscriber base may have been wearied by poor-quality promotions.
As to the comments about BookBub and new titles. BookBub says they very occasional accept a new release if the author's previous books have at least 75 good reviews and reasonable sales. There is no hard and fast rule any more but you can safely bet that they don't even glance at truly new and unknown authors, regardless of quality.
My personal opinion is that the door is pretty much closed for new and unknown authors (like me) in this game. (I have been told by agents and editors that I should have tried harder to get a traditional publisher because my books are high quality. I'm not just shooting out my a... I chose this kind of publishing because I read outdated statistics that said it was a better bet for making an actual living.) It is too bad I was busy having medical issues and children back in 2009 to 2012, when it was actually possible to successfully market indie books. :P
I'm sorry to hear that you are so discouraged. I knew it would be hard out there, but I feel nothing is easy, especially writing and publishing. It's still not too late to try to get a traditional publisher. And you can contact Barnes and Noble directly to see if they will carry your book. Maybe I'm too optimistic because I'm a newbie, but I feel I have a better chance now than I did several years ago. Don't give up.now
I felt a lot different three months ago, when I had read so much from the 2009 to 2012 period. Everything that has happened since has confirmed two things to me. 1. Readers who can find them love my books. 2. There is no actionable way to market, unless you already have a platform or a fan base. There are plenty of people who will sell you their book on marketing books. The better ones of those will honestly tell you what did work between 2009 and 2012 but none of it works today. I am only saying this because I wish I had stumbled upon someone putting out the unvarnished truth several months ago. I'm not selling a how-to guide. I'm giving experiences because I wish I had known this earlier. I am pretty sure my books could have found a traditional publisher. I gambled wrong because I thought this was a better way too make a living at it and there isn't really any way to reverse that. I will simply have to take this as a loss and write something else, if finances and family obligations allow.
I don't know what to say. I haven't enough experience to give you any advice. I went the self-published route because I didn't have time to shop for a publisher and frankly I've heard bad things about the traditional route. If your work is good don't give up. Look to the others who have the experience and find out what works. I've heard many success stories. For me writing is a passion. I'm not that interest in winning the lotto with this book (although that would be nice), I'm enjoying the process and whatever happens I'm just happy I finished something I started four years ago. And I'm please that it came out as good as it did.
Linda wrote: "I don't know what to say. I haven't enough experience to give you any advice. I went the self-published route because I didn't have time to shop for a publisher and frankly I've heard bad things ab..."My life has been a roller-coaster since my debut novel was sold to a major publisher. Much is left to the author to activate these days, and it became a full-time job, especially for someone as ambitious as I am, and took me away from the pleasure of writing.
Excellent article on ambition: http://99u.com/articles/33407/ambitio...
I've gone back to writing every day and have been making progress on my next story. I've learned quite a bit in these past three months, and before the paperback comes out, next year, will have a better idea of what it takes... start earlier.
Thank you for your comments. It's good to get positive feedback that your work can be recognized. Good luck on your future ventures.
Linda wrote: "Thank you for your comments. It's good to get positive feedback that your work can be recognized. Good luck on your future ventures."Don't give up, keep writing, and hope that it doesn't take as long as mine did—twenty years. I thought I'd be buried with it. Thumbs up to those who self-publish. I am astounded at how much you all do, how knowledgable you become wearing so many hats, and that you don't give up.
I've been writing for 30 years, but just got the courage and the opportunity to publish. I'm going to keep going and feed my passion. Thanks again.
Linda wrote: "I've been writing for 30 years, but just got the courage and the opportunity to publish. I'm going to keep going and feed my passion. Thanks again."As my son would say, "Awesome!"
Mod
Free offers, virtually no collateral sales, and no reviews. Consequently, I don't recommend this. YMMV.
I tried Kindle's Countdown Deal on Amazon. Initially promising, subsequent efforts have been disappointing. A few sales of the book which was on sale for $0.99, almost no collateral sales.
I also tried Facebook's marketing system, the "Boost Your Ad" thing they offer. Absolute bust; no sales that I can detect.
I'm now going to market a book via ENT. If that is at least as effective as those Amazon promotions were, I'll drop my books from Kindle Select and go back to D2D, which is incredibly easy to use. I'll sell them through Apple, Kobo, and B%N Nook and market exclusively through one of the mailers who promote the book at a discounted price.
Book quality? No reviews (all honest, BTW, not paid for) less than 4 stars, average 4.5 stars. Blurb? Cover? I've changed both, and now have professional covers for two of the books (no observable effect).
Maybe, if I wrote about vampires and werewolves and zombies...
But no. I wouldn't be comfortable selling something like that, certainly not under my own name.
Anyway, this has been my experience. I offer it FWIW.
Jack, that is what I am experiencing and hearing from other serious writers. I use D2D. I haven't tried KDP Select. I may do it just to see if it changes anything. I've done very intensive marketing since beginning 3 months ago. Working far more than full-time at it, sacrificing everything else (work, kids, home upkeep). I have the advantage of three boos in a series with rolling releases. After doing everything I could find, I do have some minimal sales outside of promotion periods. Not nearly enough though and I have exhausted all possibilities I have uncovered through my research. I spent far too much even though I've been very strategic about what I spent.
Jack, that is what I am experiencing and hearing from other serious writers. I use D2D. I haven't tried KDP Select. I may do it just to see if it changes anything. I've done very intensive marketing since beginning 3 months ago. Working far more than full-time at it, sacrificing everything else (work, kids, home upkeep). I have the advantage of three boos in a series with rolling releases. After doing everything I could find, I do have some minimal sales outside of promotion periods. Not nearly enough though and I have exhausted all possibilities I have uncovered through my research. I spent far too much even though I've been very strategic about what I spent.
In any event, I really appreciate having people to chat with who know the realities of it because there are so many places where you have to keep up a constant positive attitude. That's good but there comes a point when it's too much. :)
Jack wrote: "I began publishing about 9 months ago. I got a burst of sales at first, then a new (smaller) jump when I published a new book. Sales began dropping after that, so I tried marketing.Free offers, vi..."
Jack, as someone who also isn't interested in writing about vampires and werewolves, I understand your frustration. There are so many books out there, most available for low prices as ebooks, that it is hard to stand out in the crowd, especially if you're not following whatever the hottest trend is at any given time. I'm preparing to release my next book which will also not cater to the vampire-loving crowd, and I fully expect to get the same slow sales that my first novel got (despite very good reviews, as was the case with your book). We can only hope that eventually these slow drips become torrents, but the waiting isn't easy.
I think what we should realize is that most of the best selling authors got rejection notices fromtraditional publishers when they first started out. I can't remember who they are right now, but I remember reading about it. At least we have a platform to publish our books. I'm not Polly Anna here, but I feel optimistic enough to keep writing. However I am keeping my day job unless something amazing happens and I get screaming reviews and tons of sales. Not everyone will get the golden ring but like everything else in life, if you don't try you've already failed.
Mod
According to the Amazon Author's Forums, the price Amazon pays authors when one of their books is 'borrowed' has dropped to $1.31 or so.
The promotions aren't working, the price for borrows has dropped to about half what it was, and Amazon wouldn't cooperate when I wanted to schedule a Countdown to coincide with an ENT promotion; accordingly, I went back and unchecked the 'auto-enroll' button on all my books. By December end, they'll all be off Amazon Select and published in a number of other outlets via D2D. Future marketing efforts will be made through ENT. I may not sell as many books as I did, but I'll make more money from each sale by going through D2D.
The only reason I'm not unpublishing Amazon's listing (yet!) is so that I can keep the reviews I've gotten; I don't think they remain if the book is republished on Amazon through D2D. But if I begin getting reviews elsewhere, I'll publish exclusively via D2D.
Also FWIW, I'm slowly gaining a following for my blog, http://jacklknapp.com. Whether that will lead to sales I don't know. But every time I add a post to the blog, I pick up a few followers.
Br..."
Yes. I have used Amazon's preorder and I sold roughly 3K books the first week (the preorder period was about a month, so I got a nice first week bump).
I'm not relying on Amazon to promote the book -- they are not my publisher, they are simply a resale venue -- I do my own promotion and marketing.
There is a reason legacy publishing takes full advantage of presale, and that is because you will sell more books overall and have a better chance of hitting one of the million "bestseller" lists on Amazon if you utilize presales.
However, if there is any question of being able to hit the deadlines, you do NOT want to try presale. And if you don't have an invested readership, presale is probably not going to make a difference to you.