Outlander
discussion
Do you think the TV Series is influencing the way you interpret the book
re: Frank cheating on Claire.. Frank did cheat on Claire he admitted it to her and she was very hurt by this admission. Trying to take Bree from Claire to go to England without her is the ultimate insult. I think he should of divorced her when she asked him to rather than keep her in this dead relationship. He fixated on Bree, a child not his, because of his dead relationship with Claire. At first he didn't accept her story, believe her, trust her. That is so in contrast to what Jamie would of done.. It's just emphasizes another reason why Claire could not go back to him. Her love for Jamie was just so different. If I do feel sorry for Frank, it would be because Claire could never see him again like she did when she was 18, however, I think most of that was his own fault, spurred on by his actions after her return. So no I don't think the series is portraying Frank and Claire's relationship correctly. Frank is not her soul mate, Jamie is. If they want to change the stories for the screen at least they could do is understand the characters in the story better.
Mary wrote: "re: Frank cheating on Claire.. Frank did cheat on Claire he admitted it to her and she was very hurt by this admission. Trying to take Bree from Claire to go to England without her is the ultimate ..."I agree that Jamie is Claire's soul mate, not Frank. I don't think the series is trying to portray Frank as such though. I think they are trying to show Clair's desperation to return to her time and her husband that she DID love. At this point in the book she was still desperately trying to return even though she was starting to fall in love with Jamie also. What happens with the relationship AFTER Claire returns to her time in no way influences her feelings or intentions BEFORE she makes the decision to stay with Jamie. That has not happened in the show yet. I feel like the show is portraying a truer representation of how Claire felt at that moment. We all know (those who have read the series that is) that that Claire's feelings do change though and she no longer wants to return to Frank. This has just not happened yet in the show.
gertt wrote: "Mary wrote: "re: Frank cheating on Claire.. Frank did cheat on Claire he admitted it to her and she was very hurt by this admission. Trying to take Bree from Claire to go to England without her is ..."I don't think the series is portraying Frank as her soul mate, but I do think that last episode spent too much time on him. I think that is maybe where that impression is coming from. Maybe they should have spent more time on J&C's new marriage.
Fixate may be too strong a word but I agree Frank latched onto Bree since he couldn't have any kids of his own. I guess she was the glue in that held that marriage together. I was none too happy when he announced he was finally leaving Claire and taking Bree with him. That took a lot of audacity.
I'm also a little surprised that he loved Bree so much considering her looks. She obviously doesn't look like Claire so it would seem that she is a walking testament of Claire's "infidelity".
I find it quite amusing that one of the best things about Frank gets put down. He "fixated" on Bree? Frank was a man who decided to raise his wife's child from another man as his own. He should get praise! If Bree wasn't his own, would we feel he fixated on her? I just thought he was a good parent. A parent involved with his child.Frank was able to move on from Claire's affair (an affair is how it would have seemed to him) and love that little baby girl as his own. Some people have a hard time loving their step kids. Frank wasn't like that.
A little surprised that Frank loved Bree so much considering she looks less like Claire and probably like her biological Father? I am assuming you didn't quite think that one through before you posted lol. Frank isn't a monster.
I disagree to that the series is focusing too much on Frank. I just think it's not focusing enough on Jamie and Claire. 16 episodes is obviously not enough time to fit everything in. I wouldn't want to do without the Frank scenes. I see them as quite important to the story, although we tend to learn more about this kind of thing later on rather than now. But I get that they're trying to stay in the future and in the past at the same time. It makes it easier for when Claire (view spoiler)
Mrsbooks wrote: "I find it quite amusing that one of the best things about Frank gets put down. He "fixated" on Bree? Frank was a man who decided to raise his wife's child from another man as his own. He should ..."Yes, I did think that through. What I meant was knowing Claire loves someone else and had a child with someone else, did it bother him somewhat to "see" Jamie whenever he looked at Bree. If you don't like the statement that's fine.
I never said he was a monster but he's definitely no saint.
Kyra wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "I find it quite amusing that one of the best things about Frank gets put down. He "fixated" on Bree? Frank was a man who decided to raise his wife's child from another man as his..."I knew what you had meant. I'm sure it did bother him somewhat to "see" Jamie through Bree, at times. At times. But that didn't affect his love for her. And it shouldn't.
I think it bothered Frank more that Claire saw Jamie when she looked at Bree. I think he might have said as much during that last argument, but I'd have to look it up. Frank seemed to be pretty secure in his relationship with Bree. He didn't have to share her emotionally (with Jamie) or compete with Jamie's memory every day. And in DIA: (view spoiler) I was left with the impression that they had a very healthy father/daughter relationship.
Mary wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way yo..."I still haven't watched the series, but based on several bits of input in this thread this is the impression I got. I'm very excited to watch the series, but I think i will wait .. I don't want to compromise my vision of the final book .. Everyone has given wonderful comentary on the series and if I were only a couple books in I would probably go ahead and watch.
Shawn wrote: "Mary wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influenci..."I'm not sure how many books are left to be written. I don't think Diana knows herself. With one just having been published and 4 years between each one. We all could be waiting a LONG time! Sigh.
Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way you interpret th..."I started out watching the Starz series and thought it was great. Then I discovered the Outlander books and my impression of the Starz series has plummeted. I'm no longer a fan of Ron Moore and after the disastrous Starz interpretation of episode 8 I cancelled Starz. If they don't plan to follow the book I suggest they rename the show and move on. Love the books hate the show.
Cindy wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way yo..."Where do you see the major differences? Because they are translating a book to screen there are many differences, it can't be helped, but what are the major differences that led you to discontinuing Starz, the series and Ron Moore?
As long as the writers don't go by way of and as True Blood did it will remain a good showI love some of the additions to the show that were not in the book
The show has not taken me away from how I interpret the books
I do not like the split of the season they did of the show but since I am on book 7 I already know what happened
Mrsbooks wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Mary wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the serie..."Diana said 2 on her facebook page the other day and it was annouced at a literary festival - she knows when it is going to end (the year) - but getting there is the journey
Cindy wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way yo..."interesting because Diana herself loves the episode and what they did with it...
Mrsbooks wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Mary wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the serie..."You are correct, there could be two or three more books to come ... but the time it takes one or two is probably about it. I feel pretty confident that the TV series will go down as a classic, but even if it doesn't, dvd's and online viewing will always be an option.
I've read a lot of books in my time and this series, still, remains my all time favorite ... Not to mention, I prefer to read over TV any way ... so I'm ok with waiting ever how long it takes ... Of course I say that now .... because a couple of weeks ago I was about to cave lol lol lol!!!
Shawn wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Mary wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if yo..."With how slowly she passes time in the books, I find it difficult to imagine she can be done within 2 books. I think she said she wants it to end in the 1800's but of course she could always change her mind.
Either way, if the TV series is one season a year, she has to be finished in 2 books or they won't be able to finish the television series. Maybe she will come out with them in less than 4 years?
Cindy wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way yo..."Wow, really? I just started the series a couple of days before the first episode. While I didn't care for Ep 8, mainly because of all the extras regarding Frank and that ridiculous scene at the stones toward the end, I didn't think the series as a whole was that bad.
With the show only being an hour and the books are well over 1,000 pages each, some things will be left out. Was there one or two things in particular that led to this decision?
Just curious
Kyra wrote: "Was there one or two things in particular that led to this decision? " First I don't like Balfe as Claire. I think that was poor casting. Second the Starz overemphasis of Frank gives the show an odd feeling. Then the big omission in episode 8 when they left out Jamie warning Claire to not leave or how Jamie would punish her. Viewers who have never read Outlander will not have the information to understand that strapping scene.
Dee wrote: "Sam is only an inch shorter than Jamie in the books - Sam is 6'3" and Jamie was 6'4""Sam's also probably 30-50 lbs pounds lighter than the Jamie of the books. Even with Sam's new added bulk he's on the light size physically of Jamie Fraser. Though he does a great job in the role.
gertt wrote: "It's not the height that's important, it's how the actor portrays the character and I think Sam and Cat both do an excellent job. You could have a taller Jamie and a shorter Claire that are the ri..."One of the most ridiculous lines was taken directly out of the book. It just didn't work in the show. When Jamie says "You are so small I didna want to hurt you." Well you don't get the sense of Jamie being muckle sized because Sam Heughan is paired with Balfe. She can almost look Heughan eyeball to eyeball. It's just not believable. The casting is off and it really hurts the quality of the show.
Sharon wrote: "Kyra wrote: "I am curious how they are going to play out that spanking scene on the show when it wasn't brought up in the last episode. "Well, the spanking scene takes place after Jamie rescues h..."
Unfortunately the Starz series failed to lay any ground work down for that scene. When it appears viewers will have no idea that Jamie warned Claire explicitly that he would take his belt to her bum if she left. He even goes one step further and warns Claire that he also doesn't make idle threats either. None of that information was given to viewers in episode 8. How do you think that omission will play out to viewers who haven't read the book?
Cindy wrote: "Kyra wrote: "Was there one or two things in particular that led to this decision? " First I don't like Balfe as Claire. I think that was poor casting. Second the Starz overemphasis of Frank gives..."
Yes, I agree that scene where he warned her what would happen if she wasn't there when he came back absolutely should have been included. I'm curious as to how they are going to play that out when the series starts again.
The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdued/reserved where as Claire seemed very lively and outgoing. I interpreted their marriage as one that was an experienced older man and a young girl that married but didn't have much in common after the long separation during wartime. I didn't feel the love when I read the book. However, I do see more affection in the TV portrayal. As for his looks, we know that Randall is handsome because Black Jack was attractive.
Dougal - There was tension between Dougal and Claire from the beginning and when first reading the book I thought he was going to be her love interest. On the TV show, he is kinda horrible. By the time they are on the road, especially after he had married her to Jaime, I felt he had taken on a uncle/dad role with her. He never propositioned her openly in the book outside of the kiss at the Gathering. I found that little modification distasteful and made me think unkindly of the character. Where is his wife in the TV show?
Dee wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influenc..."I'm also sure Diana loves the huge cash infusion to her bank account that the Starz series has injected.
Cindy wrote: "Dee wrote: "Sam is only an inch shorter than Jamie in the books - Sam is 6'3" and Jamie was 6'4""Sam's also probably 30-50 lbs pounds lighter than the Jamie of the books. Even with Sam's new adde..."
I think Sam is a perfect representation of Jaime Fraser. The book character is larger than life because he is a fictional character. It would have been impossible to find an exact replica of what is described in the book. Let alone find someone that can also act. Sam is doing a wonderful performance and looks great. I can't stop re-watching the episodes.
Cindy wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Kyra wrote: "I am curious how they are going to play out that spanking scene on the show when it wasn't brought up in the last episode. "Well, the spanking scene takes place after ..."
or maybe as they have done, they'll put that in a later episode - nothing says they have to show all the scenes linearly
I agree Shaye - I think Sam is pretty spot on to the books in both physical attributes and acting. I think what takes away from the "feel" of him is other people around him back then were smaller in general so his height was more pronounced. More like somebody 6'6" - 6'7" today would be. The other actors are modern people so they are generally larger than others would be then - especially Cait. DG has always said Jamie was more the stature of a basketball player than a football player so the 30-50 lbs thing would not work on Sam with out bulking him up too much. I think the mast important thing is how the actors and actresses are becoming the essence of the character as opposed to the physical details. Sam is awesome in my opinion.
Shaye wrote: "I think Sam is a perfect representation of Jaime Fraser. The book character is larger than life because he is a fictional character. It would have been impossible to find an exact replica of what is described in the book. Let alone find someone that can also act. Sam is doing wonderful performance and looks great. I can't stop re-watching the episodes."Historically William Wallace (Braveheart) was somewhere between 6'7" and 7' tall. Scots have Viking ancestry so it's not unrealistic to find Scots at Jamie's height and size.
I do agree that Sam does a great job and I have no complaints with his acting skills he's just on the small end of the scale for playing Jamie. I also agreed with Diane's comment that the casting error came in d/t Balfe's mismatched height. If they had paired Sam with a shorter female lead no one would have noticed (or cared). I think they panicked selecting Balfe at the last minute.
Shaye wrote: "The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdued/reserved where as Claire seemed very li..."
Maybe the idea is to get the audience to dislike Dougal to prepare them for what is to come (view spoiler)
Shawn wrote: "Shaye wrote: "The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdued/reserved where as Claire ..."
She didn't do it, Jamie did.
Shaye wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Dee wrote: "Sam is only an inch shorter than Jamie in the books - Sam is 6'3" and Jamie was 6'4""Sam's also probably 30-50 lbs pounds lighter than the Jamie of the books. Even with ..."
I had changed my mind after a couple of episodes when I saw the chemistry between the couple. So Sam is now my favorite
Kyra wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Shaye wrote: "The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdued/reserved wh..."
Correct ... I've read DIA twice and for some reason Claire is always stuck in my head.
Shawn wrote: "Kyra wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Shaye wrote: "The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdue..."
She was the cause, if I'm not mistaken.
I did not like Frank at all in book and show
Does anyone know what Jamie's weight is supposed to be in the books? I know it says it somewhere. I'm just curious. Because to me, Sam fits Jamie perfectly. And looks wise, so does Cait. She's just not the right height and makes Sam look less "big" because of that. I'm not sure where it is in the book but somewhere Claire says that she's taller than most of the men or the same height anyways. For that time period they weren't very tall. Dougals and Jamie were huge and always towered over everyone because of that.
i dont' think his weight is ever mentioned - just more the tall/lean - you don't necessarily have to be bulky to weigh lots - since muscle is denser than fat and takes up less room
I made a point of finishing all eight books in the series before I started watching the televised version. All-in-all, I think the Starz production company has done a good job. It will be interesting to see if the TV Claire becomes a stronger personality as the series continues. After all, we have only seen the younger Claire so far.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Does anyone know what Jamie's weight is supposed to be in the books? I know it says it somewhere. I'm just curious. Because to me, Sam fits Jamie perfectly. And looks wise, so does Cait. She's ju..."I was just about to mention Claire's tallness also. In the book she is tall for a woman. I never pictured her dwarfed by Jaime. I imagined her right under his chin.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Does anyone know what Jamie's weight is supposed to be in the books? I know it says it somewhere. I'm just curious. Because to me, Sam fits Jamie perfectly. And looks wise, so does Cait. She's ju..."All I remember about his weight is when they were in the spanking scene, there was a comment about him being 5 stones (70 lbs) heaver than Clair. So if she weights about 120, then he would be about 190.
Shawn wrote: "Shaye wrote: "The only characters that the TV show is changing my opinion of are Frank and Dougal. Frank - I did not care for Frank in the book. He seemed very subdued/reserved where as Claire ..."
Actually (view spoiler)
I'm late to this discussion, but I don't think anything can influence the way I think about the books.I first fell in love with them when I was 16, which was, ahem, several years ago. And I have since re-read them many times. So the book characters and plot are pretty much cemented in my mind.
And I'm loving the show. Enjoying the changes. Sure, Claire for me had lighter hair and maybe was a bit shorter and not quite so willowy, but Cait is working out just fine.
And I'm sure if I re-read the book tomorrow 'my Claire' would immediately come back to me.
Cindy wrote: "Shaye wrote: "I think Sam is a perfect representation of Jaime Fraser. The book character is larger than life because he is a fictional character. It would have been impossible to find an exact rep..."Personally I think both Sam Heughan and Caitriona Balfe are perfect for the roles of Jamie and Claire. Their acting is spot on, and they have a wonderful screen presence together. I love the way they play with each other, and the way they look at each other. I think it's a bit unrealistic to think every character in the book should be represented exactly in the TV series (height, body hair, hair color) it's all pretty irrelevant. It's more important to me to have 2 competent actors that work well together, like Cait and Sam do.
M. Patrick wrote: " It will be interesting to see if the TV Claire becomes a stronger personality as the series continues. After all, we have only seen the younger Claire so far. "I think that will depend on the scripts they write. I think they have been watering down Claire's strength as it relates to her relationship with Jamie, and moving the story away from a story from her perspective to include his perspective as well. The book is written in a way that might not work on the screen that well, as much of what you hear in the book is what's going on in Claire's head. Other than voice overs I don't know how they would do that. I don't mind the voice overs but I think they'd have to change some of it to be more conversational and action based. Don't you?
I had never heard of Outlander until the TV series, so I guess I am working in the opposite direction. Now that I have read the books, I can say that I am really amazed how well they followed the book. I think in a 2 hour feature film, it's impossible to get everything about a book into the movie. Diana was very smart and had this series done instead which gets into so much more detail. I'm a huge fan now!
Brizo wrote: "Cindy wrote: "Shaye wrote: "I think Sam is a perfect representation of Jaime Fraser. The book character is larger than life because he is a fictional character. It would have been impossible to fin..."I agree with your assessment of them.
Mrsbooks wrote: "Does anyone know what Jamie's weight is supposed to be in the books? I know it says it somewhere. I'm just curious. Because to me, Sam fits Jamie perfectly. And looks wise, so does Cait. She's ju..."According to what is quite often replied on Dianas FB page to those who complain that Sam is too small. Jamie is 6'4 & about 225 pounds & Sam is 6'3 and about 230 pounds, so definitely not too small.
Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way you interpret th..."First, I just want to wave happily across the internet at another female Shawn, Outlander fan, to boot! :-)
I have read the books once or twice a year since I discovered the novels in 2011. As an author myself, I've met Diana at conferences, and as her driver for a conference May 2014, I got to ask her lots of questions about the series, her participation in it, cameo, etc. She was so delightfully excited about the whole thing both in public and in person, I was never in any doubt about Ron Moore's approach.
I already felt like the characters were alive (we discuss them around the dinner table like family here), but I feel Sam and Catriona have brought a new dimension. Sam is EXACTLY what I always envisioned for Jamie; Cat is taller and thinner, but captures the demeanor and essence of Claire very well.
I like what they've done with Frank- in the books it was hard to believe Claire was so desperate to return to him. I didn't believe that relationship (and that makes sense, since Diana started writing with Jamie and the highlanders in the cottage, and had to go back later to add in Frank and Claire's relationship). Hokey though that mutual race to the stones was in ep 8, I quite liked it. I think Tobias is doing a wonderful job as both Frank and Black Jack.
My favourite part of the series, though, is the visual aspect. The cinematography, the beautiful lighting, the gorgeous costuming, and the Scottish scenery are all so much better than I could have imagined. Along with the makeup, prosthetics, etc. those details help make that 18th century world completely believable-in all its dirty, harsh, dangerous glory. If you compare a series like Reign or The Tudors (or even Game of Thrones to a certain extent) they're just too clean, and the lighting is too bright.
The TV series doesn't replace the books; I still have one on audio read going most of the time, but when I'm sitting knitting in the evening, re-watching the episodes is a lovely way to pass the time. It's the only thing good on TV! Not to mention it's provided quite a bit of inspiration for Outlander themed poetry on my blog! :-)
Zoey wrote: "Mrsbooks wrote: "Does anyone know what Jamie's weight is supposed to be in the books? I know it says it somewhere. I'm just curious. Because to me, Sam fits Jamie perfectly. And looks wise, so do..."Thanks, that's awesome!
Shawn wrote: "Shawn wrote: "Though I have not watched the TV Series, I have seen many threads that reference the series, while discussing the book. I am curious if you think the series is influencing the way yo..."I agree with how beautiful the scenery is. It stood out the most for me in the Rent episode.
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I've read all the books, and seen all the episodes of the series so far, I do not think the series in influencing my interpretation of the book, but I do think the opposite is true. I can't watch an episode without comparing it to the book. I love both the books and the series, but I think the books are written better than the series. I love the casting of the series, Jamie, Claire, BJR, Dougal all fit my vision of the books versions. I think the actors are all doing a fine job of the scripts they are given. The directing seems good as well. If I fault anything in the series it's the screen writers that seem to not understand what is important from the books and what is not. They change or leave out critical scenes and to me this is why I like the books better than the series.
I don't like how they've added scenes not in the book making Frank more important to the story then he was in the books. I think if Claire felt the way they displayed her in the books there would of been no way she wouldn't of gone back to him later. They also cut out many of the romantic scenes with Jamie and Claire where they were establishing their relationship to accommodate these extra Frank scenes. I think they should be spending more time developing Jamie and Claire and concentrating on the shows stars, instead on secondary characters.
I try to look at the series as something different than the books but can not. I've lived with the books for too long, and they are so good. It just calls for comparison, and the series although is good it's just not as good as the books.