Goodreads Ireland discussion
Irish History & 1916
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When we consider which immigrants groups are referred to as the "X diaspora" it seems reserved for certain nations - the Irish diaspora, the Greek diaspora, the Jewish diaspora etc. However, diaspora simply refers to a group of people dispersed beyond their homeland. Many of these groups are people who were forced, one way or another, to leave.As far as things being in one's DNA, there is something referred to as "historical memory" or collective memory which I think may be related.
Hi Barbara - yes, you are right about historical and collective memory being related. It would be difficult to really know how much of "memory" is shared collectively and how much of it is individual. No matter,it is an interesting force that shapes our world!
Collective memory is such a beguiling concept and one that I believe in.
Theresa wrote: "Collective memory is such a beguiling concept and one that I believe in."I use historic/collective memory to explain a response I had a few years ago to a colleague. She came into my office to complain about her tenants (who naturally pay her entire mortgage with their rent, allowing her to live rent free in the building). I said to her that I was the wrong person to talk to as my great-grandparents had likely been driven out of Ireland by landlords. This was before I found out that the time they left Tipperary, their village was at the epicenter of the land wars at the time. Kind of spooky.
Barbara wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Collective memory is such a beguiling concept and one that I believe in."I use historic/collective memory to explain a response I had a few years ago to a colleague. She came into..."
Barbara - Oh how very interesting! What town in Tipperary? I am very close to the Tipperary border.
They were from Dundrum. Now it is nothing more than a crossroad. It's northwest of Cashel.
My brother is currently living in Dundrum. A quiet but nice spot all the same Barbara.
Yes, I have been through there. I think there are many hundreds of such small villages in Ireland!
Kevin wrote: "My brother is currently living in Dundrum. A quiet but nice spot all the same Barbara."What a small world! I have only found a limited amount of information on the Tipperary land wars, but it seems Dundrum was in the middle of all that. Frank Delaney, not exactly a historian, but writer of historical fiction, mentions this period in his book Tipperary. I should go back to it. He may even mention Dundrum.
You may be aware that none of the Parish records (births, deaths, baptisms) that people look at for family history are in Dublin. The National Archives in Dublin is a great repository but I was told there that the Archbishop of Cashel (I believe) kept them in Tipperary and wouldn't let them go to Dublin. At least that is what I remember being told when I visited the Archives. It also doesn't help that my great-grandmother had a very common name, Bridget Doolin (or Doolan) and there were several females with the same name and year of birth in and around the same area. It's beginning to sound like the Wales that Dylan Thomas described with so few surnames that people were known by their nicknames. I am sure I am not being totally historically accurate in all this. It's what I recall.
There is a way to trace back and determine which one was your great grandmother. I have done this with my own family line. You can message me if you want more info.
M.I. wrote: "There is a way to trace back and determine which one was your great grandmother. I have done this with my own family line. You can message me if you want more info."Thanks!
For those interested Groupon are doing two tickets for the Glasnevin tour for tweve euro. Half price
Forgive me if anyone has posted about this before, but did anyone see the documentary about Glasnevin on RTE on Thursday night, One Million Dubliners? I'm about half way through it, and it is fascinating.http://m.rte.ie/ten/news/2014/1003/64...
I think it's actually ended up on the film festival circuit over here, Allan. Looking forward to seeing it myself.
Allan wrote: "Forgive me if anyone has posted about this before, but did anyone see the documentary about Glasnevin on RTE on Thursday night, One Million Dubliners? I'm about half way through it, and it is fasci..."Fascinating stuff. I love Glasnevin. Of course I've been one of those mysterious ladies who come and tend the flowers on Michael Collins' grave ...
One Million Dubliners is definitely worth seeing.
Judging by the gallery, this book looks like a fascinating photographic record of the Irish Civil War, as featured in the Irish Times.http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/boo...
Allan wrote: "Judging by the gallery, this book looks like a fascinating photographic record of the Irish Civil War, as featured in the Irish Times.http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/boo...-..."
Good stuff Allan. None of those images were featured in the MOOC Theresa and I recently took which included that period.
POST your favourite MICHAEL COLLINS QUOTEJust looking at Michael Collins' author page
(here:)
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...
I was surprised that there was nothing on his author "Quotations" page; (though many of us have a favourite Collins quotation in our heads.)
To post your favaourite Michael Collins quote to his author page, go to this link:
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/new?...
So does anyone have plans for celebrating the Easter Rising Centenary?
I'll be celebrating of they release the 1926 census as planned! trying to track my family is like trying to heard cats. but also a trip to Glasnevin is in order I think.
A trip to glasnevin sounds like a great idea alright. A couple of trips even.
My daughter is tracing our family tree . My grandmother was born in Tipperary in 1900 . What is the difference between Irish Free State and the Republic of Ireland ? I told her I didn't think either would apply because it was prior to 1916 and Ireland was still part of the U.K.
The Irish Free State refers to the period after the Anglo Irish Treaty when Ireland held dominion status with the commonwealth. 6 counties in the north almost immediately opted out leaving just 26. this continued until 1937 when The Republic got it's own constitution. As far as geneology is concerned none of this really matters in 1900 Tipperary. You need to start by looking at the 1901 and 1911 census. you can see them for free on the National Archives site. Just google 1901 Irish census. After that you can begin with parish records or birth, marriage and death certs.
Thank you Trelawn and Emma.I had never heard of Irish Free State but I was pretty sure it couldn't have applied to my grandmother.I told my daughter your suggestions and when she gets out of school for the summer she'll dig into it. Thanks again.
If you're interested in the War of Independence,Dublin in Rebellion: A Directory 1913-1923
is an encyclopaedic reference book. It tells you who was living at which address for almost every street in Dublin! Perhaps one for the anoraks. A more impressionistic, but none the less immaculately researched piece of work is:
Dublin 1916: The Siege of the Gpo. Clair Wills
As a Brit with a great interest in the War of Independence, I'd be interested to know the answer to two questions from our Irish (and Irish diaspora) friends:1. How is the War of Independence seen by Irish people nowadays? Romantically? Cynically? As a heroic struggle or as an absurd myth? Does it vary by generations?
2. How does this affect how the Irish see us Brits? Is there any lingering enmity? Would the idea of a Brit writing about this war be greeted with horror?
Looking forward to hearing your responses!
I think there's a sense of pride about how the Irish fought the War of Independence. I certainly feel that way about those days and have written two books on the subject - Tan and A Time of Traitors, which focus on different aspects of the conflict. However, I think we're much more ambiguous in our feelings in relation to the Civil War. That was a time when some very dark deeds were done in the name of patriotism. The days of lingering hostility against Britain were, I feel, finally put to rest with the visit of Queen Elizabeth a few years back and with the state visit of President Higgins to Britain. The welcome that both dignitaries received from the respective citizens proved that.
I don't think the idea of a British person writing about the conflict would raise eyebrows. If the story is well researched and well written, it would be a great addition to the subject.
David wrote: "I think there's a sense of pride about how the Irish fought the War of Independence. I certainly feel that way about those days and have written two books on the subject - Tan and A Time of Traitor..."Dear David,
Thank you very much for this very interesting reply. Your two books sound very interesting, and right up my street - could you tell me where I can get hold of them? Are they history or fiction?
Do you know the work of Charles Townsend? He has an excellent book about Easter 1916, and a more recent one about the whole period.
It's interesting to hear that there's still a sense of pride about the War of Independence. I guess the equivalent for England would be Dunkirk, the Blitz and 1940. I look forward to the celebrations of the centenary of 1916! I agree that the visit of Queen Elizabeth was hugely significant. I think it was powerfully symbolic that she visited the Garden of Remembrance for those who died in the War of Independence, that she acknowledged that our two nations had had a difficult past, and perhaps most of all that she visited Croke Park, the scene of the massacre on Bloody Sunday in 1920. My own novel Whatever You Say, Say Nothing is set around Bloody Sunday - I'd be interested to know how far that event still resonates in the national psyche? Is Michael Collins still regarded as a national hero and maker of Ireland, or has some revisionism gone on?
I bought a copy of David Lawlor's book, "Tan" on Amazon. He is an incredible writer.
Thank you Claire, that's very nice of you to say. I'm humbled.
Hi Julian,My books are available on Amazon.They are fiction, but written around historical events. I'm not familiar with Charles Townsend's book, but would be interested to read his book.
The rebellion is a fascinating time. My own grandmother was a child looter during Easter week. My grandfather fought in the War of Independence and the Civil War, and was a member of the firing squad that executed Erskine Childers. Those days fascinate me and make me wonder how I would have reacted to the challenges of the times.
Bloody Sunday was a momentous day in our history. It showed the British that they could be defeated by a clever and lethal force. The reprisal in Croke Park was a clumsy response to the sophisticated network that Collins had established. I think it would be fascinating to read of those events from a British perspective, particularly if they were shown through the eyes of one of the soldiers who fired on the Croke Park crowd.
As for Collins himself, he's a man I greatly admire. I think, in some ways, it was a blessing for his memory that he died when he did. He was at the pinnacle of his power . . . young, vibrant, intelligent, handsome and daring. It could only have gone downhill from there. Good luck with your book Julian.
David wrote: "Hi Julian,My books are available on Amazon.They are fiction, but written around historical events. I'm not familiar with Charles Townsend's book, but would be interested to read his book.
The r..."
Thanks very much for your comment, David - great to hear from someone who has the history in his blood. I have Irish ancestors on my mother's side, who ended up emigrating to Canada, but my interest in Ireland was aroused by a good friend of mine who is cousin twice removed of Michael Collins and took me to his family home in Clonakilty. Plus I am a practising Catholic, which means (in London) you get to see a lot of Irish every Sunday! I will seek out your books - they look just my sort of thing. Mine is called Whatever You Say, Say Nothing and is published on Amazon on September 12th.
David wrote: "Hi Julian,My books are available on Amazon.They are fiction, but written around historical events. I'm not familiar with Charles Townsend's book, but would be interested to read his book.
The r..."
PS You can read an extract from my novel on www.c20books.wordpress.com. Enjoy!
I enjoyed the extract. Good luck with it Julian
Just recommending The Loneliest Boy in the World: The Last Child of the Great Blasket
An interesting read about the end of an island community. Be prepared for lots of names in traditional Irish, but otherwise very readable by any person.
Sounds very interesting Clare! Thanks for the recommendation ☺
Goodreads Ireland
Books mentioned in this topic
The Loneliest Boy in the World: The Last Child of the Great Blasket (other topics)A Time of Traitors (other topics)
Tan - A Story of Exile, Betrayal and Revenge (other topics)
Dublin In Rebellion: A Directory 1913-1923 (other topics)
Dublin 1916: The Siege of the GPO (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Anne Marreco (other topics)Sinead McCoole (other topics)
Cal McCarthy (other topics)
@S. Thanks for the input on the Brehon laws. I've researched around them many times but never studied them in depth. They always struck me as a source of context or commentary for other topics as opposed to providing original topic content themselves (which is the nature of laws, I suppose). The impression I got from my work was that the Brehon Laws were always more aspirational than functional - there was never any real enforcement apart from the pressure of social aspirations. The sad fact was that some people treated others abysmally in the past just as some people continue to treat others abysmally today. It seems to be a single sad fact of the human condition.