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Irish History & 1916
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Paul
(last edited Oct 04, 2014 12:54AM)
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Oct 04, 2014 12:53AM
With the 1916 figures there was a definite point of opinion change causwd by the military reaction to it . I don 't know if this lot will get a moment that will change perception.I thought Lenihan was as useless as the rest and too stubborn to rest when he got ill. In saying that who was stupid enough to have a lawyer rather than an economist in charge of our finances during a crisis
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Pretty much Emma. I remember reading a book that pinpointed the change to the moment they strapped James Connolly into a chair injured to shoot him. He was one of the few leaders everyome knew .
It's still a concept that I am exploring. I think a case could be made for Joe Higgins and the other extreme left TDs, maybe. They are labelled as idiots and hypocrites, but I think there is something there. For instance, Ming Flanagan taking a glass of contaminated water from the tap of one of his constituents and asking the Ceann Comhairle to drink it. Maybe we are the ones being idiots by passing off what these people have to say and may regret it later. Just a thought, whether I believe it or not I don't know yet :)
Tony Gregory was looked on as a crank to begin with but has already gone down in political lore so you make a fair point.
As Emma mentioned above, it seems to take something cataclysmic in order to put the Irish people into gear which is definitely a shame. We are a country of 'inactivists', but then again, I'm the pot calling the kettle black on this one haha :)
When you see the student protests in other countries we are quite slow all right . Although i did heckle Bertie once when he visited Trinity
Jacky Healy Rea was quite the joke really. Both he and his son are walking characitures and are hard to take serious in national politics. Lowry wouldnt have been allowed run in most countries with fraud etc
And i agree about Ming. It worries me that he represents my area in Europe
I think Brian Cowens brother getting elected sums up local politics too well .
It seems to whole system is corrupt. The Gardaí, the bankers, the church, the CRC, the government and all its connections. It's depressing, but you are right, is it widespread or just here.
Mod
Who is Biffo?
A derogatory abbreviation for the old Taoiseach Brian Cowen. I think it goes Big Ignorant F****r From Offaly :)
Mod
Thanks for the info. We have some strange politicians in the US. Some years ago there was a Louisiana election w. 2 candidates, Edwin Edwards,convicted for corruption, and a Ku Klux Klan leader. Edwards won. His slogan: "Vote for the crook." KKK is a racist organization.
Looks like I missed a fascinating discussion, damnit! I would like to add a slight addition (digression?) to Kevin's original question, though. When you look back at 1916 and the people then, and compare them with the current period, I think it's worth remembering that there's been a distinct shift in our society's power structures. Back in 1916, the key concentration of power was in the government (at the time an English controlled one) and the church (Irish/Rome controlled). I think everyone understands that power structures become captured and corrupted by self-interested groups or individuals over time. Certainly, in 1916, the English government was mostly preoccupied with its own imperial issues. Ireland, at the time, was little more than a controlled resource. Wrt the church, it too was a growing power over community and social leaders. In 1916, therefore, people like Markiovitz, Connolley etc. (all the so called 'firebrands' of the time) were kicking against power structures that were essentially captured and injust and hence the 'reaction' that did occur.
If you move forward to the present day, its easy to see how power has shifted. The church's power in Ireland has dwindled to a point of almost non-existence, probably as a direct result of how that institution abused it's power. The Government (now Irish) is still an entity of some power but I would say this is now rivaled by the new power players on the block - commercial organisations.
Back in 1916, these very large commercial corporate didn't exist (except in a very minor way) as the government at the time had ultimate control over the purse strings. In the almost 100 years between then and now, commercial corporates have grown immensely and nowadays are often more powerful than some governments (they can, as we have seen on numerous occasions, simply 'buy' governments or at least sufficient members to do their bidding.
Going back to Kevin's original question therefore (at last!), those people I would see as the equivalents of Markiovitz, Pearse, Connolly etc. are essentially those firebrands who kick against the captured and injust power structures of the present day (e.g. environmentalists, social activists etc.). We may not like them and we may disagree with them but I think that we most certainly need them.
Interesting, Brian. I enjoyed ready that. Thank you.
Wow I just lost my post(:From the Irish History MOOC I'm in - probably the oddest reference to Constance Markievicz yet:
Men and women of Ireland! :
...demand Irish-made cigarettes... /
Constance de Markievicz Minister of Labour.
http://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls00...
And I discovered a wonderful website on the 1913 Lockout. Last April I saw the 1913 tapestry at the GPO and there is a great little video on the same website about the making of the tapestry:
http://lockout1913.ie/index.php?optio...
Some images here:https://www.google.com/search?q=1913+...
Barbara, that advertisement for Irish cigarettes is just hilarious.Emma, I think I've been too far away for too long to credibly suggest someone. People who I have been very impressed tend to depend on the snippets of news I follow at a given time and are often less controversial. Although they're hardly in the league of eccentrics like Markievicz I was really impressed by Maurice McCabe and John Wilson who revealed the extent of political corruptions within the Garda Siochanna.
Ironically, I was reading the online Irish Times this morning and came across a video of Enda Kenny being taken by surprise by a trio of women who handed him a pair of '8th Amendment Knickers' at a fancy funding dinner. I thought that very much demonstrated the kind of attention gaining stunt Markievicz would have pulled. I was quite not so much struck by their actions though so much as the actions of the toady to Enda Kenny's RHS. He immediately leaped into action by throwing a napkin over the offending knickers/message to hide them. That pretty much summed up Irish politicians for me.
Whoops! Should, perhaps, have added the link I was referring to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a654qv...
I know that this link to a review of the new book, 'Vivid Faces: The Revolutionary Generation in Ireland 1890-1923' is relevant to the discussion here, and might interest some members.http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/boo...
My friend's father is a retired superintendent. I wasn't sure what I thought when that scandal unfolded as it seemed like it only unveiled a snippet of corruption. When I asked him what he thought of the situation, he said 'fair play to them, it's about time'. I'd like to think that he would have told me if he thought they were traitors.
Allan wrote: "I know that this link to a review of the new book, 'Vivid Faces: The Revolutionary Generation in Ireland 1890-1923' is relevant to the discussion here, and might interest some members.
http://www...."
Thank you Allan, for the link. I felt that a new book by Roy Foster was overdue and this sounds fascinating. Last week in the MOOC I was looking at some of the cultural issues he explores so it's straight onto my TBR pile. If I was living in Dublin I'd be at the front of the queue for his talk tomorrow night.
http://www...."
Thank you Allan, for the link. I felt that a new book by Roy Foster was overdue and this sounds fascinating. Last week in the MOOC I was looking at some of the cultural issues he explores so it's straight onto my TBR pile. If I was living in Dublin I'd be at the front of the queue for his talk tomorrow night.
Theresa - I didn't realize till I saw your post the author was Roy Foster. It's not out here in the US yet, but the price is reasonable - around $21 so I put it on my wish list. I'd love to hear the talk as well. We have members in so many varied places, we end up making each other so envious of opportunities like this talk. I am still working on Week 5 of the Irish History MOOC, and can't believe there is only one week left.
Barbara, Ferriter touches on cultural themes in his Transformation of Ireland so it'll be interesting to compare the two. I finished Week 5 last night and need to finish week 6 by Friday night. We were lucky to find each other as I've just read that there were 40,000 comments in the first four weeks. It's ever so much quieter now.
Theresa wrote: "Barbara, Ferriter touches on cultural themes in his Transformation of Ireland so it'll be interesting to compare the two. I finished Week 5 last night and need to finish week 6 by Friday night. We ..."I have noticed topics average 400 to 600 comments. Do we have to finish Week 6 by the end of the week? I looked, but couldn't find an ending date.
No Barbara, there doesn't seem to be an end date and I am almost certain that the comment threads stay open indefinitely. It will be easier for my schedule if I can finish at the end of this week hence I've put pressure on myself. The number of comments in the threads drops considerably each week - at the beginning I think they were in four figures! I've skipped the assignments as I don't need the practice and presumably you'll do the same. Once you have a doctorate you don't need to prove anything do you?
Apologies to members for going off topic. :)
Apologies to members for going off topic. :)
Theresa wrote: "No Barbara, there doesn't seem to be an end date and I am almost certain that the comment threads stay open indefinitely. It will be easier for my schedule if I can finish at the end of this week h..."thanks! It has helped me to take 2 MOOCs based on Irish history and culture as I occasionally teach a course related to Irish lit and of course history.
Cphe wrote: "Love this concept.I've always loved reading about The Troubles but have trouble pin pointing exactly when they started and ended.
Can anyone shed some light on it?"
1969 was the beginning of the kind of protests and activism that turned into the Troubles.
It started as a Civil Rights movement. Oppressed Irish Catholics in the North took their inspiration from the racial equality movement in the US. As part of this, in 1969 Bernadette Devlin at age 21 became the youngest MP every elected to Parliament, and the first MP who was a Irish radical of the young, rebel generation.
Before that, for decades, Catholics in the North just didn't much dare raise their heads, or make a peep about their rights. Not since the pogroms in the North in the 1920s, following the Irish War of Independence. Basically indiscriminate killings were used to stop the independence movement in the North. And people there lived in fear. In many ways, it was like they were living under the Penal Laws of the 1700s. Catholics were shut out of many professions, had severely curtailed civil rights, did not have equal voting rights, etc.
So they tried to have a Civil Rights movement, starting around 1969. They would have peaceful marches, they thought, like the black people had done in the US. They sang "We shall overcome..."
Except in the North, they were just beaten to death, and shot down, when they tried to march. Their neighbourhoods were attacked, and thousands of people were burned out of their homes. Refugees flooded across the border in to the Republic of Ireland.
So eventually they just started shooting back, it escalated from there, ... and the Troubles were on.
This is an excellent book, that gives a first-hand account of those early days:
So glad this thread is started. The 1916 revolutionaries were not embraced by all at first. The present-day parallel I see is people in Sinn Fein now. Martin MacGuinness, Gerry Adams and others. These were people once entirely without civil rights, who had to hide while soldiers came in and destroyed their homes. Who were imprisoned. The mainstream political establishment and press never gets tired of trying to demonize them, and minimize their contribution. But there's no question there'd be no peace in Northern Ireland today without them. It's sure not the Unionists who made it happen. Their achievements are incredible, when you think these were lads who didn't exactly have any opportunity to enjoy a normal youth, going to university, or anything. They were too busy dodging bullets, just walking down the street in their own towns. And now they're world-class statesmen. They do great work for social justice in Ireland, and also have earned a very respected voice in international human rights issues.
9/11 with the help of some guessing as to the age of the dolmen over Newgrange and trying to place what year Gay Byrne famously showed the condom on the Late Late Show. A tricky quiz indeed.
Emma wrote: "New Irish history quiz for you all. I got 8/10http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/iri..."
I am officially a history dunce - 3/11. It is silly to have to remember specific dates which 4 questions required. Knowing specific facts is not as important as having an idea of the whole context of history.
Not in Irish secondary schools(high schools) Barbara. You have to remember exact dates, it's drilled into you, then you leave school and forget them all
Dates are useless if you don't know how all the bits and pieces of history fit together. Memorizing dates is deadly and why so many people think they don't like history. I remember a brilliant tour I did of the Bodleian Library in Oxford with my son. The guide did not spout memorized facts but instead shared stories. He was a retired man who loved the place. Even my son loved the tour!
I forgot to add that I finished the MOOC course from Trinity on War and Revolution 1912-1923. It was definitely very very worthwhile. I estimate I spent about 3 hours a week on it. It would be easy toe spend more time if you engaged in the discussions in depth. I was truly impressed.
There are tours of Glasnevin cemetery? That is something I never knew about! I would 90% of the great Irish figures in history have been laid to rest there, that tour must be great.
Myself and a few friends keep saying we must do that tour. Have heard great things about it
Paul's mam and dad did the Glasnevin tour recently and loved it. I am planning to do it and some point, I have been researching my family history recently and a lot of my ancestors are buried there.
Myself and Trelawn keep meaning to do it. My Mam and Dad did it a few months back and raved about it . A guy did a very theatrical rendition of Pearses speech at O Donovan Rossas funeral.
I'll have to make a trip there myself. Hopefully before new years.
Should be worth it. Groupon do half price tour tickets for it from time to time as well
Washingtonians and Dubliners have something in common. There are local sights we don't ever get to see. I still havne't been to the Lincoln Memorial and several others. But I was on top of the Washington Monument (I think still closed after an earthquake 3 years ago), George Washington's home at Mount Vernon, Frederick Douglass's home, inside Congress when in session, and Arlington Cemetery. I've only been up and close to the famous cherry blossoms once as it's a madhouse, but gorgeous. And to related this all to Irish history, I webt to the rededication of robert Emmet's statue:http://www.robertemmet.org/wash-dc/wa...
Emma wrote: "The odd thing is I live 5 mins down the road from it and have yet to do a tour. I just know about the stories because my sister did it with school.Kevin they do a range of tours focusing on diffe..."
That's pretty amazing, Emma. Fascinating how those small elements seem to reflect contemporary views on the past.
Barbara wrote: "Emma wrote: "New Irish history quiz for you all. I got 8/10http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/iri..."
I am officially a history dunce - 3/11. It is silly to have to r..."
You are "officially not a dunce" in history if you understand that. Once in a while you hear something in school that really sticks with you. That was the most important thing I ever learned about history: it's not about memorizing dates. It's about understanding concepts. It's about understanding what happened.
I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who loves Glasnevin. I'd love to do the tour. I got the map of famous tombs. But then I'm like the people who live in New York City all their lives & never visit the Statue of Liberty.
I have often considered the different impressions of Irish history held by Irish American and Irish nationals. I have certainly developed my own 'reflections' over the years. Growing up Irish in America was a unique experience. I may have caught the last fading hurrah of the era before our sadly successful assimilation into the American mainstream.My own sense of Irish history came through intermittent Catholic school, the odd holiday in South Boston or Montreal with the crazy cousins and my mother's Gaelic lullabies but for the most part, my world was settling easily into the American middle class.
I remember being quite young, visiting my Aunt Kate, and staring up at the framed photos and collected tripe on her parlor wall. It was the typical assortment that must adorn countless Irish American homes - portraits of Jack & Bobby Kennedy, a small tricolor, a tacky plastic leprechaun, the Sacred Heart, and an aging tribute to the Martyrs of Easter Week 1916 enshrined with the tragically handsome faces of Patrick Pearse, James Connolly and the lads. I was fascinated and hounded my father for details. Dad fumbled about for an answer but clearly he was faking it. Aunt Kate, I remember, was furious. She gave my Tough Mick father a punch and hissed: "Learn the history of your country, Johnny! The lad should know he is son of kings!"
My father was chagrined and my interest was piqued. Despite the intermittent Irish history, sports and music that were a part of my Yankee boyhood, I was a sophomore in college before I became fully aware of the Great Hunger. Here was this catastrophic event, a virtual holocaust that profoundly shaped the histories of both Ireland and America and I realized I knew only a few shadowy details. I read Woodham-Smith's THE GREAT HUNGER and the extent of the tragedy left me with an overwhelming sadness and no small addition of Irish guilt. I questioned how this exiled Irish son of Irish kings could be so out of touch with a legacy of suffering that was so much a part of my heritage. I have many Jewish friends and I know that the memory that more recent holocaust has had a lasting impact on their lives. There have been numerous books and films that have detailed the crimes, memorialized the victims, and attempted to make some sense of the appalling tragedy. In their synagogues, homes and culture, Jews have purposefully confronted their history and have begun healing their community. As an Irish American, I remember no such communal ritual or reconciliation. The Irish Potato Famine, the cause and catalyst for my family's exile, was never mentioned.
So, I have made an effort to read and appreciate the fascinating scope of Irish history. When traveling in Ireland, I have often contended with the occasional native taunt about Americans trekking back in search of their roots and I have tried to explain the curious draw many Irish Americans feel for the past. I think that the sense of exile that lingers in the Irish American soul is a very real thing and there is very little in contemporary American culture to sooth the odd sensation of banishment.
All the Best, Sean
A lovely commentary, Sean. I must admit, in my travels I have definitely met many people of Irish heritage who live in other countries (Australia, New Zealand, even England)who feel a great yearning for a culture/heritage/linkage that is sometimes more emotional than practical but no less strong for that. I used to run Irish history and culture classes and a lot of these people would turn up, hungry to learn and reconnect with a culture they were affiliated with but not completely attuned to. [In fact, that was one of the key drivers for setting up my own cultural publishing business.] Sometimes, they didn't feel 'at home' in their country of birth yet when they attempted to visit or move to Ireland they were often ostracised because of their accents or the lack of common cultural references.
Some of this was because many of the descendants of those who left have lost any viable connection to their heritage. I've seen many ill-advised attempts at cultural connections made using inauthentic/artificial 'props' (the Guinness t-shirts, the Aran sweaters on Grafton Street in mid-summer, the tweed caps - one poor man came home wearing green pants with giant shamrocks on them which made him a laughing stock for weeks). I'll also never forget one of my uncles getting a call from some distant American relative who'd rang him up out of the blue and wanted to visit. My uncle's immediate reaction to him was 'There's no land, no money!' - the assumption being the cousin was only coming back to try and reclaim part of the family farm. There's a true Irish trait for you! :)
In any case, I do think a person's heritage/culture CAN be reclaimed and education or self-education through reading is certainly a critical part of that.
Brian:Thanks for your thoughts and I am pleased that we are now Goodreads Ireland Friends. Like you, I am fascinated with 'true, Irish traits'. The more derogatory, the better. Perhaps "My Favorite Irish Neurosis' would make an interesting thread for discussion.
I wish I had the opportunity to travel more. I think an Irish diaspora tour would offer some insights.
I have done a bit of volunteer work with Catholic Charities and several years ago I had the opportunity to go to Guatemala and work with a rural food bank. My fellow workers were from all over the U.S. and, like me, could best be described as occasional Catholics. Other than our clearly advancing middle age, it appeared that we did not have a lot common. We arrived in an isolated village and the center for a inter-denominational relief services and our very young, very white, very Anglo Saxon Protestant project co-ordinator was reading out the names of gathered volunteers.
"Walsh, O'Connor, Kelly, MacCoole, O'Shea....hey, what's with all the Irish names? We're building a food center here not an Irish bar."
Was it some weird coincidence? An odd convergence hastened by some collective Irish trait? Of the fifteen volunteer workers, every one of us answered to an unmistakable Irish surname.
Typically, we followed our Protestant project director's directions and began work building a food distribution center. We worked hard each day, suffered sunburn and insect bites, tried out our fractured Spanish with the lovely Guatemalan villagers, and spent the evenings drinking the potent local beer and talking. The subject of curious Irish traits did come up and we reflected on the possible reasons why an Atlanta writer, a Washington DC attorney and a plumber from Colorado would all be gathered together in a small Guatemalan village mixing cement.
There were, of course, family stories - Irish sons and Irish fathers, vague connections to Counties Clare or Cork where Uncles Pat or Mike finally caught the H.M.S. GET ME THE HELL OUTTA HERE and made it to America. We talked about Irish history and the inevitable subjects of famine, poverty and exile. We concluded that there was something in the Irish character that includes compassion for outcast, some Irish trait that remembers the coffin ships and is willing to reach out to a fellow survivor. While we were certain that Bob Geldof and Bono were only in it to meet girls, we took a bit of Irish pride knowing that they were our rock stars in Africa. We were reminded that Che Guevara was of Irish descent and it was his travels to Guatemala and his experience with the landless peasantry that shaped his revolutionary doctrine.
We finished the construction of the food center in one month. It is still in full operation and provides drinking water, food, infant formula and pre-natal care to over a thousand people a week. I bade my fellow volunteers goodbye at the Miami airport and, while I never heard from any of them again, I don't believe it is due to faulty memory.
Best, Sean
Interesting disucssion. Regarding "compassion for the outcast" - I see it as a sign of great acceptance and hospitality. I have traveled a lot myself and have experienced the sort of instant acceptance by other native Irish or diasporic Irish. That sense of Irish hospitality is present much further back than just remembering the coffin ships, however. There is the old Irish custom of setting an extra place at the table for the "uninvited guest"; there is plenty of commentary in Brehon Law about it, including sanctions for those who don't offer some degree of hospitality; the various ancient annals are full of high praise for those who were generous and welcoming. There is the account of a Welsh king in the 800s who became tired of Irish pilgrims from Clonmacnoise taking advantage of his own hospitality as they traveled through his territory enroute to Rome. He had some of is more learned court monks invent a sort of riddle, and for incoming travelers the condition was if the traveler was able to solve the riddle, the king would offer hospitality. In this way, the king assumed he would rid himself of the riffraff traveling through. However, we know about this little episode because some other monks at the time figured out the riddle, and sent its solution within the body of a letter to the then-head abbot of Clonmacnoise, for him to pass on to any new pilgrim travelers, to ensure they had a place to stay enroute to Rome. It wasn't right at all, they thought, for the king to do this. The idea of helping people, of being of service, of accepting the stranger into your home and offering him or her a meal and place to sleep for the night even pre-dates Christianity, and the oldest tales in Irish mythology are full of them. If there is such a thing as historical memory, then such inclinations are in our DNA.
Sean, I think 'My Favorite Irish Neurosis' would make a brilliant film title if not a thread for discussion. :)M.I. I love the story about the riddle and the Welsh king. That's one I haven't come across before.
Brian wrote: "Sean, I think 'My Favorite Irish Neurosis' would make a brilliant film title if not a thread for discussion. :)M.I. I love the story about the riddle and the Welsh king. That's one I haven't come..."
It's detailed in Dáibhí Ó Cróinín's
and also in a much older work by A.J. Otway-Ruthven
The riddle was in the form of a cryptogram which included Latin and Greek, the Greek being less known at that time. Here is a translation of the letter, Colgu being the abbot of Clonmacnoise, and 4 young monks writing it:
"This is the inscription which was offered as an ordeal by Dubthach to the learned Irishmen at the citadel (arx) of Merfyn, king of the Britons. For he so far thought himself the best of all the Irish and the Britons as to believe that no Irish scholar, much less British, would be able to interpret the writing before King Mermin. But to us (Caunchobrach, Fergus, Dominach, and Suadbar) by the help of God it did not remain insoluble.Please understand, wise and estimable Colgu, our very learned teacher, that we are not transmitting this exposition to you as one needing such enlightenment, but we humbly ask that in your kindness you would give this information to such of our simple and unsophisticated Irish brethren as may think of sailing across the British Sea, lest perchance otherwise, they might be made to blush in the presence of Mermin, the glorious king of the Britons, not being able to understand that inscription."
Otway-Ruthven refers to this as "a delightful bit of cheating." Indeed it was.
The Brehon Laws are a huge issue in Irish history, and character. To my thinking, they are THE issue. Even though they're not something everyone even knows about. Like you yourself, never even hearing about the famine. In a way, they ARE the culture. In a culture that didn't build cities or huge monuments, didn't conquer other lands or enslave the world, the treasure is encoded in the laws, and the sagas and poems and songs. The laws are such an expression of our sense of reality, of what's real and what matters. They have similarity to other ancient law codes, but its one of the few that survived and is relatively well-preserved.
Yes , there were once laws against letting people starve. Even up through the Elizabethan era, it was a crime in Ireland to refuse food to a homeless child. At the same time, in England, starving children were executed for stealing food.
Speaks volumes, doesn't it.
There were laws against letting people sleep in the street. How many times has your soul convulsed at the site of someone laying in the street? It's not natural to pass them by. Yet we live in a society which requires us to.
I think the tale of the Welsh king and his riddle is very significant. I suspect it's recording in a way an epoch when the new powers that be wanted to break the old system. They wanted to introduce exclusion. To set a precedent, that it was OK to exclude some people, some time. And the monks were right. You see what it led to. It led to feudalism, and 90% of the population in malnutrition while a tiny minority wallowed in wealth.
But .... don't get me started.
In short, I think it was a good thing, when by law everyone had to eat something and be sheltered at night. It was not a threat to society, as some elements often howl.
Goodreads Ireland
Books mentioned in this topic
The Loneliest Boy in the World: The Last Child of the Great Blasket (other topics)A Time of Traitors (other topics)
Tan - A Story of Exile, Betrayal and Revenge (other topics)
Dublin In Rebellion: A Directory 1913-1923 (other topics)
Dublin 1916: The Siege of the GPO (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Anne Marreco (other topics)Sinead McCoole (other topics)
Cal McCarthy (other topics)
