The Word for World is Forest (October 2019)

[Lena]

Centuries in the future, Terrans have established a logging colony & military base named "New Tahiti" on a tree-covered planet whose small, green-furred, big-eyed inhabitants have a culture centered on lucid dreaming. Terran greed spirals around native innocence & wisdom, overturning the ancient society.

Often described as a hard hitting story it won the Hugo for 1973.

[Lena]

When I nominated this I was swayed by the author and my belief, perhaps from Children of Time, that this would be a crashing cultures tale with a Solarpunk ending. I don’t know whether or not this is the case but from a peak at the Wikipedia synopsis this is going to be a rough, if short, read. I’m still going to read it but there’s a chance this is more harsh eco-fiction that uplifting Solarpunk.

[Lena]

Just started... that first paragraph had to be choked down.

[Lena]

Woohoo. Before the end of the first chapter the Creechi are fighting back!

[Lena]

I’m already on Chapter 4, after a caustic beginning it just gets better and better. The Hainish and another race of humans have shown up with the ansible announcing that things have changed, there is a League of Worlds and Earth is a member. Oh, and no more making your own evil decisions because the ansible allows you to talk to command immediately. I’m guessing at the spelling of some things because I have the audiobook.

[Lena]

Just finished Chapter 5! You guys should get in on this, I’m stopping for today. It’s hard to stop mid-battle but I don’t want to binge this group read.

[Lena]

Finished Chapter 7, I think that was the last battle. I’ll save Chapter 8 for tomorrow! That last meeting with Davidson was impactful:

We are both gods, you and I. You’re an insane one and I am not sure whether I’m sane or not, but we are gods. There will never be another meeting in the forest like this meeting, now between us. We bring each other such gifts as gods bring. You gave me a gift, the killing one’s kind - murder. Now, as well as I can, I give you my people’s gift, which is not killing. I think we each find each other’s gift heavy to carry.

[Johannes]

This version includes Le Guin's "Author's Introduction," oddly, the ebook version I have doesn't.

Some background (that's not necessary for the read, but may be of interest), this standalone book is part of Le Guin's Hainish Cycle novels, wherein humanity was seeded across the galaxy by a progenitor species, the Hain, millions of years ago. Interstellar travel ceased and the disparate seedings evolved in isolation until interstellar travel was again a thing. In the middle of Ch. 3.

[Lena]

Yes! I want to read them all, I’ve read several Hainish novellas and The Left Hand of Darkness. The large short story collection I have of Le Guin is called The Unreal and The Real which is an expression from this book, something the Creechie mention about their lucid group dreaming and our lack of understanding/ability when it come to dreaming. They say we separate dreams and non dreams as real and unreal, as if it were that simple. To the Creechie they are substantially more.

[Johannes]

The story seems straightforward so far. I'm curious about Le Guin's influences. She talks about her opposition to the American (Vietnam) War in her intro and the colonialist etc. parallels that she built into the story. Her father was Alfred Kroeber, famed American social anthropologist, so there's at least an analog in character Raj Lyubov, and in some of the real world dreamtime concepts that inspired her Athsheans.

Lena: maybe Le Guin's read Vine Deloria Jr.'s Custer Died for Your Sins: An Indian Manifesto, pub. 1969? The first essay is titled, "Indians Today: The Real and the Unreal." It's a somewhat humorous essay on a very serious topic and advocates for Native American self-determination.

[Johannes]

Reading on... craving a The Word for World is Forest + The Overstory mashup that's not Avatar.

[Lena]

Excellent references Johannes! And thank you for the pdf file.

[Fiona]

I'm late to start this - my dad's staying at our place for 3 weeks and has just arrived. He's not great at entertaining himself... luckily we have a little side room to our bedroom that serves as a wardrobe, and it turns out it's big enough for a reading chair :)

So this is my first Le Guin (other than the short story Those Who Walk Away From Omelas). I've managed to get myself a chapter in so far - I see what you mean about that first paragraph, Lena, though buxom beddable breasty little figures might stand out as the best piece of terrible alliteration I've seen in a while.
The whole chapter was tough actually, Captain Davidson and his men ticking almost all the boxes for things I'd hope we'd outgrow as a species before interstellar travel became commonplace! The parallels to colonialism aren't hard to see, but I do hope the "creechies" escape the usual "crush them all" backlash colonisers showed to native populations who tried to fight back.

Thank you for that PDF, too, Johannes - my edition doesn't have that introduction either. I think it's likely that you're right and her father's work in anthropology had at least some effect on her writing and themes.

[Lena]

Fiona wrote: "He's not great at entertaining himself...”
Lol! Glad you found some reading room. It gets better fast I promise!

[Fiona]

Thank you! I kind of like it in here tbh, but it will be nice to have the house back in a couple of weeks :)

[Kaa]

I read this about a year ago and I've read a lot of other Le Guin in the meantime, so my memories are a bit vague, but I'm enjoying seeing everyone else's reactions. I found the story moving, although a little bit on the nose at times, especially with the depiction of Captain Davidson.

A couple other common influences that show up throughout Le Guin's work that I think make an appearance in this book are Taoist philosophy, especially about balance, knowledge, and action vs inaction, and Jungian ideas about dreams.

[Fiona]

Kaa wrote: "I read this about a year ago and I've read a lot of other Le Guin in the meantime, so my memories are a bit vague, but I'm enjoying seeing everyone else's reactions. I found the story moving, altho..."

It's funny that you mention that Taoist balance, because that's exactly what I felt the second chapter presented. Even the language used was lyrical and poetic - taking it's time rather than simply stating the point as it did in the first chapter. All that casual brutality is replaced by descriptions of a society that sees difference but accepts it; lives in and with the world rather than imposing their will upon it. It's clear that this people is aware and afraid of the "yumens" - they think they're insane, and the way this book has started it's not hard to see why!

[Fiona]

Lena wrote: "I’m already on Chapter 4, after a caustic beginning it just gets better and better. The Hainish and another race of humans have shown up with the ansible announcing that things have changed, there ..."

Nice one on the spelling!I've just finished chaper 3 and can confirm you've nailed it.

In the meantime, chapter 3 - in a word? Beauracracy! Too entangled at this to really tell who wants what - I think Lyubov is a good guy though?
The new League of Worlds seemed like it might be there to side with the natives, but I think they might be pushing for plausible deniability.

[Lena]

Thanks for the confirmation! Lyubov tries, he’s quite alone among the hypocrites. The non Hainish League member pointed out that they obviously thought of the Creechie as humans if they were having sex with them. It felt good having that logic thrown in their face. League members are diplomats so they hold their cards tight.

[Fiona]

Lena wrote: "Thanks for the confirmation! Lyubov tries, he’s quite alone among the hypocrites. The non Hainish League member pointed out that they obviously thought of the Creechie as humans if they were having..."

Good point about what the non Hainish member said - I liked that callout too!

[Johannes]

Lena wrote: "...luckily we have a little side room to our bedroom that serves as a wardrobe, and it turns out it's big enough for a reading chair :)."
Wardrobe Reading Room podcast!

[Johannes]

Finished. Did anyone else find it odd that all the Athshe/New Tahiti birds, "Te-whet," had Southern (US) accents? Maybe they just sound sassy to me?

[Johannes]

I've heard-read that there's a Ursula K. Le Guin: The Hainish Novels and Stories: A Library of America Boxed Set collection, pub. 2017. In Le Guin's introduction she discusses the Avatar film compared to The W.F.W.I.F. Does anyone have access to the intro? My secondhand impression is that Le Guin is not a fan of the movie because she feels Avatar goes against the "moral premise" of W.F.W.I.F. in offering "mass violence, as a solution." As a reader/watcher, I'm not so sure the movie/book are all that different on this point, but...spoilers.

[Fiona]

I think this might be what you're after, Johannes: https://www.tor.com/2017/08/31/introd...

She definitely makes the statement about Avatar, at least - so even if not precisely the same, the feelings are clearly still consistent!

[Johannes]

Fiona wrote: "She definitely makes the statement about Avatar, at least..."
Good find! Having now read the intro in question... Le Guin's comments make me wonder about her moral premise. My takeaway wasn't that the Athsheans were ruined by Yumen mass violence or colonialism, rather, they as a people collectively acted to best achieve their self-determination on resilient terms that made sense to them culturally and in terms of actions that would make sense to their occupiers. Presumably, after the League of Worlds is gone, there will no longer be a need for mass violence, and the Athsheans' traditional behaviors around violence/conflict will resume (singing, body postures, signaling, dreamtime psychological health practices that all reduce the harms/extents of violence).

[Lena]

Finished https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Kaa, I noticed the Tao more in The Left Hand of Darkness, this was colonialism in space with some interesting ideas on lucid dreaming.

Johannes, the Creechie leader did not think violence and murder would be a learned skill forgotten by his people. The Hainish diplomat was pretty worried about that before he left.

Le Guin’s stand on mass violence seems at odds with the effectiveness of its use in the book.
Then again, it would have been all for not if the peacekeeping force of The League Of Worlds had not stepped in.
Then again, that’s peace through superior armaments.
And on and on we go...

[Johannes]

Lena wrote: "Le Guin’s stand on mass violence seems at odds with the effectiveness of its use in the book."

Agreed, without the limited use of guerrilla warfare the Athsheans wouldn't have reclaimed their planet (ditto for Avatar's Na'vi). And, to her credit, Le Guin does make Selver, her rebel protagonist, a local person and not an off world savior figure.

What I'm getting at is that Le Guin's 1969 impetus was the anti-war movement, with its necessary emphasis on non-violence. Whereas, for various colonized people who had violence imposed on them, an emphasis on self-determination was the more salient one. Which leads me to think about self-determination as a main theme in solarpunk sci-fi.

[Fiona]

I think you're right Lena, that Selver at least saw murder as something his people had learned, a lesson that couldn't be unlearned. Though he seemed determined to teach Davidson the lesson of not killing, the lesson from their people, so I don't think the ending is entirely without hope.
Johannes the anti-war movement could absolutely parallel that - humanity trying to bring non-violence to a violent people.
Finished today, but no doubt we have plenty of discussion left - there's a lot to unpack with this book!
I can see the potential Avatar influence (though that was pretty clearly also influenced by Pocahontas) - I agree with Le Guin that it would be a shame if that was the message James Cameron had taken away from this novel, so let's hope for coincidence.

[Lena]

So do we think this was Solarpunk?

[Fiona]

Lena wrote: "So do we think this was Solarpunk?"

Really good question! I can definitely see aspects of the Athshean society that could fit the mould. But I'd say it was bits of the book rather than the whole, though I suspect it would serve well as a prequel to a Solarpunk series.

What were your thoughts?

[Lena]

I feel there is a distinction between peacefully, ignorantly, primitive and Solarpunk. Now that the Creechie have seen and used technology whatever they decide on to use will lead them to Solarpunk, not Solarpunk, or just back to peaceful primitive. I think Solarpunk is using technology while respecting nature. It can also be making the decision to step back to a simpler way, like the Tolari in The Marann, they made seem pre-Industrial but the Tolari are a star faring society that came home to chill.

[Fiona]

Completely agree. For me the overall optimism of a society that's peaceful and in tune with nature is spot on; but to hit that solarpunk mark it needs to combine that with alternative energy technology.
I think Solarpunk is using technology while respecting nature. - that combination is the essential piece for me too.

[Johannes]

The Wikipedia Solarpunk page is back! It's a real genre again. In the US, Halloween's come and gone, and I'm still not sure what a proper Solarpunk costume's supposed to look like beyond a Chewbacca.

Fiona wrote: "So do we think this was Solarpunk?..."

Interesting question. W.F.W.I.F has many Solarpunk elements: utopia (but Athshea started off that way, so...), speculative fiction (yup), enlightened alternative society (Athsheans vs. Vietnam-era Yumen man-pigs), inclusive (def. not the Yumens, too little data re. Athsheans), punk (the Yumen occupiers are rebelled against), sustainability (Athsheans, of course; maybe the 30-years-later League of Worlds folks; def. not loggers), environmental concerns (check), future that could be better (hmmm...), tech gone right instead of wrong (points to the ansible—the whole League of Worlds is watching, no points to the tech that brought the loggers, book was written pre-social media, so ?), social transformation (def. not for the loggers, maybe somehow for the 30-years-later League of Worlds folks, yes for the Athsheans but in the baaad way—except the cultural encounter does reaffirm their pre-contact beliefs), elements of self-determination (yup, Athsheans), hopeful/courageous (hmmm... maybe "yes" in that W.F.W.I.F posits another reality where Athshean-humans live in harmony with themselves and their environment, and de-colonize their planet, but this reader's not left with that sense of the book as a whole).

Despite ticking many of the genre boxes, I think I'd categorize W.F.W.I.F as proto-solarpunk.