Aristotle - Poetics - Sep 2019 Buddy Read

[Cynda]

Chapter 25.
About Poetic License (not named as such).
Aristotle describes ways that the poet can make errors of representation. Apparently Aristotle takes errors seriously enough to name types of charges of errors/faults in writing of tragedies and justifications for errors.
My Comments.
I have given Aristotle plenty of space to be different from us, we 21st century CE folk. Still, I was just startung to become irritating by all his judgements--which always proved good, of course. I see that Aristotle was a brillant rhetor.

[Cynda]

Chapter 26.
Aristotle wraps up his argument of how to write poetic presentation pieces. Final discussion about epics v tragedies. Neither is better though Aristotle gives examples of what does not work so well.

I would have liked to have seen wpmore examples of what worked well when.

Thanks friends for helping me read Poetics.

[Kathleen]

Thank you, Cynda! I haven't got to finishing the last few chapters yet, but will this week.

Love your ancient literature criticism quote about plots being like a whole living creature. What a great analogy!

I appreciate you bringing your knowledge of classical literature and rhetoric to this discussion, which added so much for me.

[Cynda]

💟 I needed a little appreciation today. Thanks Kathleen.

[siriusedward]

Tthanks for the great posts Cynda .. they are very helpful..

[Cynda]

Ian wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Reading Chapter 13.
I have gained a hint of personal rather than just intellectual appreciation for Aristotle. He defends Euripides who I have a basic appreciation of. Ac..."

Ian wrote: "Cynda wrote: "Reading Chapter 13.
I have gained a hint of personal rather than just intellectual appreciation for Aristotle. He defends Euripides who I have a basic appreciation of. Ac..."

I have come back through to read our discussion here.
Yeah, why did all those tragedies written by that group of writers cime into being. That is a very good question. Ian, do you have an idea or two to share?

[Cynda]

siriusedward wrote: "Tthanks for the great posts Cynda .. they are very helpful.."

Glad you came along for the journey and asked a question. See you all soon elsewhere here at Catching Up.

[Ian]

Cynda wrote: "why did all those tragedies written by that group of writers cime into being. That is a very good question. Ian, do you have an idea or two to share? ..."

A few ideas, all of them tentative, and not very original.

The appearance of clusters of talent, let alone genius, is a deeply mysterious thing.

Classical Athens had a cluster of dramatists, of which Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides were only the most outstanding members, but their careers were spread out over about three generations, with Sophocles himself continuing to produce import works into his old age.

In Elizabethan and early Jacobean England there was another cluster of playwrights, who covered a single long lifetime. Shakespeare dominates in retrospect, but his career paralleled those of, most notably, Christopher Marlowe and Ben Jonson. There were a host of others who sometimes produced plays that are still readable, and in some cases would probably hold up on the stage.

In the English case, though, we at least know something about the cultural, political, and religious trends that brought it to an end, by closing the theaters, forcing any budding playwrights to find other careers.

In the early twentieth century, Nietzsche's problem of "The Birth of Tragedy" was taken up by some British classicists, and a great deal of emphasis was placed on the ritual origins of Greek drama in general. But, unlike Nietzsche, who at least tried to connect the Big Three to trends in Athenian culture, they had little to contribute to explaining its flourishing, once it was established as a part of rituals celebrating the gods, mainly Dionysus. (I can suggest titles of some pertinent books, if anyone is interested.)

One thing is clear: the relative wealth of Athens during most of those years had a lot to do with giving dramatists a chance to show what they could do. Tragedy (and comedy) was a state-sponsored religious event, financed by wealthy citizens who were assigned by the City a role as producers, instead of taxing them directly, and then figuring out how to spend the money.

This had the advantage that it encouraged the wealthy spend more than absolutely necessary, in order to show off, without necessarily arousing hostility from the most doctrinaire (or just paranoid) democrats. Athens frowned on excessive displays of wealth, e.g., by limiting funeral costs, although not as much as some cities.

Other wealthy cities, like Corinth, or Syracuse, although they may have had individual playwrights who were notable, seem to have relied heavily on the ready-made Athenian product.

There is a huge literature on the subject, some of it drawing large conclusions from scraps of evidence, some of it depending on technical philological details, on which equally respected authorities may take opposing views, leaving the layman at a loss.

For an interesting, and non-technical, portrait of the literary scene in Athens just *before* tragedy emerged from festival choruses, see Mary Renault's historical novel The Praise Singer. (It should be remembered that this is a novel, not a textbook, and that some of what she had to say was determined by the demands of fiction for something specific, not a careful weighing of evidence.)

She sees the rise and fall of the tyrants of Athens as a key part of the process, and not just because they elaborated the city's festivals to include contests between poets. (By "tyrants" the Greeks originally meant autocratic rulers, originally with a popular base of support, who broke the power of the old aristocracy.)

I sometimes think that she had something there, although the idea that Athenian political turmoil in an earlier generation provided a sort of model for early tragedians is a passing suggestion from the narrator, the aged poet Simonides, who is presented as an eyewitness to some of it -- Aeschylus has a walk-on role, just to agree with him.

For Greek tragedy after the death of Sophocles (who outlived the younger Euripides) and the fall of the first Athenian Empire, Mary Renault's The Mask of Apollo rather painlessly presents a lot of the evidence for Athenian tragedy in particular as a cultural model and source in other cities, and at least makes it clear, drawing on historical anecdotes, that Greek drama had a life beyond the great days of Athens.

It also deals with the problem of negative popular responses to excessively lavish productions, which I mentioned earlier.

[Cynda]

Thank you Ian. I will be reading more tragedies next year. So I will read these books before starting that study. I have the books on my wishlist at my favorite book vendor.

[Cynda]

my review of Poetics

[Kathleen]

I finished too, and here's my review: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Thank you all so much for the discussion!