Outlander Series discussion
Archive - Outlander on Starz S1
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Episode 8 - Both Sides Now - Spoilers up thru E8.
I think they were together 3 yrs before the separation.
And for those who are interested, the passage from the book before Jamie leaves to see Horrocks."I couldn't stand the thought of stewing in a forest, not knowing what was happening. I would far rather be in active danger than be left for anxious hours, waiting and wondering. And alone. … 'Did ye no promise to obey me?' he asked, shaking me gently. … 'If you leave that copse before I come for ye, I'll tan your bare arse wi' my sword belt. … Remember, I dinna make idle threats.'"
And someone linked me to this essay a reader wrote about the scene to come. I thought it was very interesting, her interpretation of it and of Jamie and Claire's relationship.
gertt wrote: "M. wrote: "And someone linked me to this essay a reader wrote about the scene to come. I thought it was very interesting, her interpretation of it and of Jamie and Claire's relationship...."You know, it's funny. I hadn't had any trouble with that scene before reading that essay. After reading it, and rereading the relevant passages in Outlander, I empathize more with Claire and feel outraged on her behalf. But you're right, I think (view spoiler).
I was surprised by it, but didn't really have a problem with it.. I kind of laughed actually when reading the book, and it does come up in discussions between Jamie and Claire later on too. (view spoiler)
M. wrote: "And for those who are interested, the passage from the book before Jamie leaves to see Horrocks."I couldn't stand the thought of stewing in a forest, not knowing what was happening. I would far r..."
Nice essay - thanks for sharing the link. I like how deeply the situation is analyzed.
Mochaspresso wrote: "rom my pov, my understanding and justification of her ability to turn her back on her husband for Jaime so quickly was due to me thinking that she wasn't genuinely happy in her marriage anyway.."She say's that herself in (view spoiler)
So initially before she met Jamie I think she did think she loved Frank, but after she returned (view spoiler)
Mia wrote: "didn't Jamie and Claire have a talk where he told her that he knows there may be things she doesn't want to tell him about and he won't hold her to do so but that it was important they NEVER LIE to one another? (from this moment forward) ... It is a vital part of their relationship and equally important to future happenings, in the books anyway. "I totally agree, this was a line that became a foundation to their relationship throughout all the books. They never lied to each other. The scriptwriter who left this line out made a huge oversight.
Kathy Anne wrote: "...it seems to me the last few ep. have been about everyone but Jamie and since there is little time in movies to get them together is why I think we have had a whole lot of Dougal and a horrible amount of Frank and Black Jack on the screen & they have spent only a few seconds together except for the wedding in the last few ep."I thought that as well, and it started to really bother me after the wedding episode and they cut out most of the really good stuff between Claire and Jamie, at a time when they were falling more and more in love every day, to add that stuff about Frank. By this point Frank should of been perhaps a thought in Claire mind that could of been handled with a voice over, not 1/2 of the final episode. I've been thinking this from the start. It's like Ron doesn't want that romance relationship between Claire and Jamie to be part of the series and without that I think he's going to turn off lots of woman who are his primary viewers. Perhaps before the wedding I could see him devoting time to others but now that they finally have Claire and Jamie together their relationship should be the dominant part of the rest of the series.
Ellen wrote: "He's devastated, with no where to go, no way to see what could be possible, even though he's a man who literally lives in the past because of his teaching. ah, Frank, we love you, too. "Maybe some do, I don't.. I think Frank is the reason Claire falls in love with Jamie. She's finally with a man that cares about her, not himself.
Diane wrote: I have never been a Frank fan - at first I was neutral and then I disliked him as the series went on. When the author says that my interpretation of a character was not what was intended then I am willing to open my eyes and try to see her point of view especially when it is now being presented through a new medium with variation in some content. "Right now Diana is a paid consultant to the show, she's not going to say things against the way the show is being presented, that's probably contractual. As for this being her 1st book and that's why people misinterpret her character, well in the second book she wrote Frank the same way. I posted a comment of the lines in that book where she describes Frank. It's the producer of this show that's pushing Frank as Claire's soul mate.. calling out to her from the stones was in my opinion another attempt to get us to believe that it was Frank Claire wanted. They cut out all the parts where Jamie and Claire were falling more and more in love, and took us to the stones way earlier in the book (in the book it was Jamie who takes her finally back to the stones, after the witches trial). It's them creating this Frank Claire eternal relationship which is just not there. And Claire relationship with Frank post Jamie is one of guilt at best, not love. So I really wish they would get on with Jamie and Claire and leave Frank in the limbo future.
M. wrote: " That's interesting that you didn't get a sense of their intense connection until the wedding and thereafter. I do miss that being shown in the series, but I suppose the constraints of screen and time … " It's not screen time constraints, as they keep adding things to fill up the screen time. It's a deliberate decisions not to include the romance. I don't know about the rest of the viewers but it's really annoying me that they've chosen to de-emphasize Claire and Jamie's romance. While adding all this other stuff that I don't particularly care about.
Avril wrote: "I too thought the finale would be Claire making a choice at Creigh Na Don as it was the pivotal moment for Jamie and Claire and the start of tons of interesting story to come"They shouldn't of included this scene in the mid-season finale as you're right that is a pivotal moment for Jamie and Claire and it doesn't happen until later after the witches trial. It's that they broke up the season into this stupid 8 episodes only then a six month break. They shouldn't have done that as it made them want to put stuff in the mid-season finale that really was not there. So they compressed everything and lost the whole 3 months on the road where Claire and Jamie really have time to develop their love relationship. Again, it's Ron choosing to de-emphasize that and it's pretty obvious that's what he's been doing.
M. wrote: "Alexa wrote: "I love the series. I am ok with the changes but okay, Jamie didn't threaten to spank her if she left. That is a huge deal. Did I miss something?"As far as I recall, he doesn't say a..."
No I think you missed something, he told her after she promised to stay if he didn't tie her up, before he left her there. He decided later to send someone back to be with her because he was worried and didn't want to leave her alone. What wasn't in the book was her anger at Jamie even before she left him. She didn't realize that she was angry until he rescued her from Randall, and even then she says she wouldn't of felt angry about having to protect herself, if he didn't so obviously feel he had let her down.
M. wrote: it did make me think in a parallel universe, the story would be about the great love between Claire and Frank and how she returned to him. (view spoiler) I totally agree. That's one of the main reason's I didn't like them doing that. It was so out of character, done I suppose for screen effects without much thought of the whole story line they were suppose to be telling.
M. wrote: "And someone linked me to this essay a reader wrote about the scene to come. I thought it was very interesting, her interpretation of it and of Jamie and Claire's relationship. "That essay was an excellent analysis of the scene to come, the author did explain many thing I guess people could feel about it and why it still is important to the story. Thanks for posting it, it really makes you consider many aspects one might not consider.
gertt wrote: "Frank and Claire were married over 7 years (nearly 8) and 6 of those years they were separated because of the war.Jamie and Claire [spoilers removed]"
Although Frank and Claire were married more years she describes their marriage during the war as only seeing each other for at most a few days. So her and Jamie probably spent even more time together in the years they were together before she returns. I don't think it's about time however, I think its more about how she feels about Jamie. In the next book she states it clearly (view spoiler) She may have once thought she loved Frank but it was nothing like her love for Jamie, and she knew that.
gertt wrote: "Does anyone think that Jamie is being portrayed as being a little to refined? When I read this section in the book, Jamie seemed stronger, more in control when he talked to Claire. He didn't j..."
It has nothing to do with Sam's acting. It has a lot to do with the script changes they are making and the directing he getting. They cut the lines that gave Jamie his strong side, the cut most of the things about Jamie. It's rather annoying.
gertt wrote: "Right or wrong, Jamie truly expected Claire to accept the spanking as punishment. When she fought him, I..."I don't know if that is it, I thought it was more that (view spoiler)
Maddie wrote: "I think that what we all must keep in mind about Frank is that in the first book we only got a very very small look at him. By the time Claire went back in time we hardly knew Claire and we were i..."See I think that is the problem when you don't know the whole book series, as a screen writer and director they should have been in a boot camp to learn the whole book story, not just the 1st book. They need to put scenes in context and they are not doing that. That's why that essay that was posted was so interesting, she did know the whole book story and could analyze it in context with where the story/series should be going.
You're right in the 1st book Frank is a footnote. So why is half the 1st series episodes devoted to him? (view spoiler)
"So why is half the series fist episodes devoted to him (Frank)?"Good question. I really think they just saw another syory angle to explore. For viewers who have not read the book I think it makes sense that they would be curious about what was happening with the deserted husband.
Overthemoon wrote: ""So why is half the series fist episodes devoted to him (Frank)?"Good question. I really think they just saw another syory angle to explore. For viewers who have not read the book I think it mak..."
When you have 25 million people who have read the books (and most viewer fit into this category, most are not new the series without knowing the books, perhaps maybe 10% max are new people), I think it's an unwarranted addition that doesn't add value to the series and actually takes up space that does detract from the story. That's the problem I have with it.
Re: "spanking". As someone said, it's a pivotal point in their relationship. But more importantly, it's how Claire finally sees the world in which she has been dropped, with dangers that did not exist in her war-torn life to the present. She has a way of being a bit off focus , and it stands to reason that that's a normal reaction , while she's learning to adapt. The physical side of life is very much a part of the Highland and historicaql reality, and if this is what gives her a wake up call, so be it. I don't see this episode as abuse, nor as Jaimie dominating Clare, but as a reprisal for the clan, and the men with which she travels. She has put everyone in jeopardy, and in Jaimie's case, she doesn't know the half of it yet. That snake will raise its evil head for further recriminations. Clare has a tendancy to set things off. She's the catalyst throughout, for me, causing and being affected by things around her. This episode is a case in point.
Ellen said,"as far as Jamie goes she doesn`t know the half of it yet",there surely have never been truer words, the pain she causes him is horrible to think about yet she has a sulky little hissy fit at him.This will actually be a good scene to remember down the road when we are trying to get thru the consequences of her actions.
I feel like I've missed so much of the conversation since I watched it so late.Things I loved, getting more of the Frank back story. I've always liked Frank and so I think it's really awesome getting to see what was happening after Claire's disappearance.
I loved the scene with the fight in the alley, because it drew a coorelation between Frank and BJR. The way that Claire could see hints of Frank in BJR (even if it was an act) we got to see hints of BJR in Frank. So it was brilliant, especially with the Reverend talking about how everyone has darkness in them.
I loved the scene at the Stones with Frank and Claire, and how he heard her faintly and she heard him clearly. It was beautiful, and soooo sad.
Honestly, this was the first time I saw why there has been a 'Team Frank' movement since the show first started. I felt Claire's pain when she got so close to returning to him only to be pulled away.
Of course, Jamie was wonderful but I actually appreciated how he wasn't the focus of this episode. He was the beginning and he was the end, but the 'love' was focused more on Claire and Frank and it was a good balance for the previous episode which was ALL Jamie and Claire.
The few things that I think could have been better, Claire's dagger lessons. One quick little 'put your knife here' lesson wasn't enough I thought. After the deserters I kept waiting for Claire's maniacal laughter from shock, seems small but that always stood out to me for some reason. And also, after the deserters we all know that Claire was angry but that she was trying really hard not to be. she kept telling jamie that 'of course he wasn't to blame' and 'how could he have saved her when he had a knife to his head'. She was trying to be pragmatic about it.
But those are minor. Mostly I absolutely loved this episode. Tobias Menzies is an outstanding actor.
Even though I like the Frank additions, I don't understand any "teaming" in Outlander. I've always felt that Frank was a decent and good man with whom Claire could have had a good life. But with Jamie it was always clear to me there was a soulmate thing going on that no one could compete with.
Now, I don't think that has been made crystal clear in the TV show yet because they are working in a Frank backstory and Jamie and Claire are not yet fully developed as a couple (they should be by now imo, but I'm ok with it unless they keep working that angle with Claire).
I also liked the Frank and Claire running for the stone scene but my POV is different as to why Claire ran. She was pretty much in shock having just been attacked with no time to recover. She was facing how harsh and dangerous this time period was. She wasn't running away from Jamie to (her love) Frank...she was running to what she knew as a safe place and time.JMO.
Overthemoon wrote: "Even though I like the Frank additions, I don't understand any "teaming" in Outlander."Huh, I hadn't thought about it that way, but that makes sense, if she's still in shock over what had happened and her realization of how brutal life is there.
@Wendy F@gertt and the music! that scene w/ F&C was just so compelling. the original theme, but upped so intensely that it carried me away with the emotion of the moment!
@overthemoonShe was pretty much in shock having just been attacked with no time to recover. She was facing how harsh and dangerous this time period was. She wasn't running away from Jamie to (her love) Frank...she was running to what she knew as a safe place and time.JMO.
what a great point! that helps me clarify the why in my mind so much. THANK YOU!!!
I agree gertt, you are spot on.She means teaming in the sense that people are now doing the "Team Frank" and "Team Jamie" things. there are meme's and I think I've even seen shirts.
I would guess that it was started by non-book reader fans, lol.
gertt wrote: "Overthemoon wrote: "Even though I like the Frank additions, I don't understand any "teaming" in Outlander. Jamie and Claire are not yet fully developed as a couple (they should be by now imo,..."..."
By "teaming" I am referring to some buzz I've heard (a' la Sookie Stackhouse) about Team Frank or Team Jamie. I just don't see it that way is all I meant. Also agree with you that C&J are together for neccessity at this point but by the time they were married I could feel the love undercurrent between them.
@ Ellen glad that viewpoint helped :)
@ wendy yes that's what I meant by "teaming" which I hope doesn't happen with the TV version. DG should be sure to learn from Charlaine Harris / TB about dividing the readership/viewership...risky business :)
Sorry ladies, it's already happening. I see them all over Pinterest, lol. You can't have a show with any sort of a triangle without people starting it up. Here are some examples:
I actually don't do this either, but I don't see it as about thinking one character is perfect, it's more about which character you like more. Whatever, if that's how they enjoy the show, more power to them, lol.
Overthemoon wrote: "Even though I like the Frank additions, I don't understand any "teaming" in Outlander. I've always felt that Frank was a decent and good man with whom Claire could have had a good life. But with ..."
These were my exact thoughts on Claire and Frank at the stones! I had the feeling Claire was just in shock, and trying to get to a familiar place in her life.
Lets hope it doesn`t get as crazy as Team Edward and Team Jacob from Twilight Saga,that competition is still going super strong.
It seems I read where Bree told her Mom(don`t remember which books)I think it was at Wakefields with Roger that she didn`t love Frank,saying this directly to her Mom who didn`t tell her she was wrong.If this still rattling around in my head then I can find good reason to think Clair never actually loved Frank afte going thru the stones the first time./edited
Please mark your posts with spoiler tags when you are discussing anything that hasn't happened up to the most current episode. That includes anything further ahead in the books.In response to your post, (view spoiler).
I agree Wendy. I have always liked Frank. He has his faults like everyone else in the story. I love that we are getting his side of what happened as well even though it was not in the book. I always wondered what he did between her disappearance and moving on with his life. To me it also helps the viewers keep in mind her need to get back to her own time. I have read other readers say that they felt like as soon as Claire and Jamie got together she didn't care so much about Frank. While I disagree with this I see where they are coming from when looking at the book. I enjoy seeing his side and helping the view not loose him in all the excitement of the past.
gertt wrote: "Brizo wrote: "See I think that is the problem when you don't know the whole book series, as a screen writer and director they should have been in a boot camp to learn the whole book story, not just..."DG posted something up on twitter the other day, the excerpt from her book after the attempted rape by the British deserters, telling the whole tale as she told it in the book not as the show told it. With a comment like if you want to know what really happened... so I don't think everything she says or feels gets immediately put into the show. She's not in charge there, she only consults.
As for how do I know they haven't read all the books, Ron has stated that in more than one interview (I heard him mentioned that they have one person that read them all the books and that he relies on her to tell them when they've gone off track). Plus which it's pretty obvious when you see some of the things in the show that just don't make sense for the original story.
Ellen wrote: "@Patty "claire's suitcase on the bed..." broke my heart as well. I wondered if she'll ever get it back. I'm not as forward read as some of you, so in Outlander, it doesn't happen. But maybe late..."(view spoiler)
I have read that too gertt and I have also read Sam say a time or two that he had read Outlander and would refer to it when he needed but never said he`d read them all.I believe they worked from very early AM to midnight so I don`t think they really had time to read them but I`m sure the one he said had is probably his wife.He said she tells him not to put something in and he does anyway and he`ll hear about it forever from her.
gertt wrote: "Brizo wrote: "I don't know if that is it, I thought it was more that..."You're right about why Jamie punishes Claire, by him expecting Claire to comply, I'm referring to ( p 286-287) when he fir..."
Yes, if Jamie is nothing else he's a man who keeps his word and (view spoiler)
Crazy4more wrote: "again, not that I'm complaining of Sam, he's adorable and growing on me but my book Jamie was the epitome of an alpha male, sighs.... "I didn't see Jamie as an Alpha-male until later in the book, after they were married for a while, before that he was kind and shy, and protective. So Sam fits my impression of that, I just hope they let him grow with some better scripts.
Kathy Anne wrote: "Ellen said,"as far as Jamie goes she doesn`t know the half of it yet",there surely have never been truer words, the pain she causes him is horrible to think about yet she has a sulky little hissy f..."I agree...
Wendy I hope that spoiler tags can be put on that darned spanking episode too it seems 2/3rds of the posts are spanking and it isn`t in this book either
Unfortunately I didn't get to watch the episode until last night, so I wasn't in here to moderate and had to rely on the members to moniter themselves. I hate that I keep having to repeat myself. I feel like telling people not to post spoilers past the episode is not a big thing to ask but we continually have members who do it. It's not fun to have to go through and delete people's posts.
If anyone has posted a spoiler, please go back and mark it with the spoiler tags. If not, tomorrow I'll be going through this thread and deleting posts.
I agree Gertt. I LOVE Jamie but I still like Frank & feel sorry for him for what happened. He was dealt a pretty rough hand
Ron Moore's podcast for episode 8 is finally up: http://assets.starz.com/stzcom/outlander/Podcast108.m4a.
gertt wrote: "M. wrote: "And someone linked me to this essay a reader wrote about the scene to come. I thought it was very interesting, her interpretation of it and of Jamie and Claire's relationship...."I had..."
I think that essay was excellent taking into account so many of the factors from an emotional and historical standpoint, which makes the scene pivotal and transformative in a good way, instead of just focusing on the shock value of the spanking. To me, it is the impetus to the declaration of the oath to her, that he would not even give to the MacKenzies -- which brings their relationship to the next level.
OK, here's what I've found in my trade paperback copy of Outlander. I think you're right that it's only a few months. Maybe she says it specifically somewhere, and I just haven't found it yet:
"We had been married and spent a two-day honeymoon in the Highlands, shortly before the outbreak of war seven years before." (p. 2)
"Even after our marriage, Frank and I led the nomadic life of junior faculty … until the outbreak of war had sent him to Officers Training and the Intelligence Unit at M16, and me to nurses training. Though we had been married nearly eight years, the new house in Oxford would be our first real home." (p. 5)
"'Well, you know, Claire, it was six years. And we saw each other only three times, and only just for the day that last time.'" (Frank confronting Claire after he saw the ghost, p. 15)
"After six years apart, and six months together, my husband was still something of a stranger." (p. 22)