1. RUBICON ~ September 22nd - September 28th ~ Preface and One - The Paradoxical Republic (xiii - 30) ~ No Spoilers

[Monte]

Douglass, I think you should look at the start of the first Punic War as an example from long before 150 BCE. From what I have read, I believe it is an example of consuls looking for a chance to expand. In 306, BCE Rome and Carthage signed a treaty saying Rome would stay out of Sicily and Carthage would stay out of Italy. In 265 BCE, Carthage was fighting the Mamertines in the city of Messina and the Claudii family, which had many trade contacts in southern Italy asked the Senate to intervene. It is my understanding that when the Senate refused to break the treaty, the consuls took the issue to the Plebeian Assembly and got its authorization for an army to assist the city of Messina. I get this version of the story from a book called A History of the Roman World by H.H. Scullard - it has details on Rome you don't find in some other books.

[Douglass, HBC Admin/TL - Economics/Finance]

Monte, that is some interesting new information to me. I will definitely check out that book, probably as soon as I finish Rubicon. Make sure you use the citation format when you mention a book in a thread. There are details about how to do it here. Normally, we include the author photo before the author's name, but there is no picture of Scullard on Goodreads, so it would look like this:

by H.H. Scullard (no photo)

[Bryan]

Thank you for helping out a fellow member, Douglass.

Great stuff, Monte, I might have to read it, too.

by H.H. Scullard (no photo)

[Kressel]

Kathy wrote: "Although there are many really good history texts, that doesn't seem to be the rule for high school texts."

I wholeheartedly agree! I wish the History Group had more young people on it. The books we choose are much better than high school history textbooks!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I am starting late but in the preface I was struck with this sentence:

The Romans had a word for such a moment. “Discrimen,” they called it - an instant of perilous and excruciating tension, when the achievements of an entire lifetime might hang in the balance.

I was thinking what a great word which could explain so many things in life and the life choices one makes when a different road or path based on a decision - would have taken you clearly in another direction. Not simply or only the decisions of Caesar.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Curious - I for one never realized that Mussolini was trying to channel the ancient Romans with Fascism and his leadership style.

Was this a surprise for anyone else?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I thought this was an interesting quote:

“Prudent men are won't to say--and this not rashly or without good ground--that he who would foresee what has to be should reflect on what has been, for everything that happens in the world at any time has genuine resemblance to what happened in ancient times."

-- Machiavelli”

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Bentley wrote: "Curious - I for one never realized that Mussolini was trying to channel the ancient Romans with Fascism and his leadership style.

Was this a surprise for anyone else?"

I remember reading that somewhere, especially using the fasces.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Interesting - I guess he liked the brutal style of the ancient Romans.

[Aaron]

Following the thread hurriedly I would like to mention that the Romans (as did the Danes) went on annual loot expeditions and campaigns. Loot was and is a great enticement to empire building. Some of my remarks are based on lectures heard at a recent lecture series on Roman history.(2008

[Aaron]

I am using KINDLE and will cite location references. Holland has made it clear that there is absences
In the evidence. His narrative makes for clarification
given the proclivity for ambiguous presences.The Romans were as greedy as those other n nations (Danes,Normans,English.Americans) and others that accumulated and terrorize d.

[Bryan]

Aaron wrote: "Following the thread hurriedly I would like to mention that the Romans (as did the Danes) went on annual loot expeditions and campaigns. Loot was and is a great enticement to empire building. Some ..."

So true, Aaron, money is intoxicating!

[Aaron]

Preface, location211 /221: the scarcity and loss of evidence; the need to impose a structure, to select

[Vicki, Assisting Moderator - Ancient Roman History]

Sadly true about the loss of ancient sources. Apparently Sulla wrote a memoir which didn't survive. It would have been fascinating.

[J.F.]

Brutal style of the Romans wasn't limited to just theRomans. Every military back then and even today are brutal. Another tactic used by militaries back then and especially Romans was if the town submitted up front, they did NOT loot pillage and rape. However if they didn't submit/put up a fight,nothing was sacred. The Romans were harsh but that's what they were up against...and won

[Aaron]

293_301 location
Expansion to control of peninsula, harsh, LOOT-laden and growth of magisterial officials. HOLLAND is talking about along period of time; 509 to 260 bc, and the presence of traditiona and contemporary aggression.Background to his main topic in 49bc.paradoxical components in a expanding political hegemony.The particular episode is coming.

[Aaron]

Holland's task in chapter 1 was to background events from 753 to 49 bc. He succeeded. It is the task of Holland to select. The subject of administration and legislation are
not properly issues in this first thread.Although I wish the occasion arises for full discussion based on sources.Vicki has made it clear that additional info should be in the glossary. I am a late participant and trying to catch up.
I think we were informed of the tradition-aggression paradox, the Roman mindset of pride, cruelty,ambition, hierarchy and piety.My guess goes with Monte that the acquisition of satellites was evolutionarily accidental..
The development of a Republican Rome ,inhabited by the variety of human beings that comprise a society

If you object to this method of reading assignment and discussion please suggest an alternative.
te

[Aaron]

The description of Rome ,its meritocratic structure , class struggle and community pride seems to be chronologically about 49 BC. In discussion of the insulare , high rises, he mentions the first and second century bc. Holland has given us a long view over Roman citizen s and a particular focus on what transpired in the city. It serves as a background the event on the Rubicon, the narrative about to be written. A general description of its major military and political encounter s., the tradition and history that will exert pressure on actions.