The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Les Misérables
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Les Miserables - Week 02
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There is another aspect to the escape attempts. The author tells us that when it became JVJ's turn to try to escape he always attempted it. This suggests that all the prisoners were conditioned to attempt to escape almost from the moment they entered the hulks. The conditions in the prisons are not described fully but were probably absolutely terrible and not fit for human beings, although the prisoners would have to be kept in a fit state to undertake hard labour.When it became JVJ's turn to escape, the other prisoners must have provided the opportunity for him by causing distractions etc. It was not mentioned (unless I have forgotten) if any of the prisoners' escapes were ever successful, so if that was the case all the prisoners were attempting something futile with only the remotest possibility of success. Yet they continued to attempt to escape as if it was their only way of defying the authority that kept them there.
I guess no one here was in the same situation that he was. I could not even imagine what is being jailed and not just jailed, but jailed in such conditions. People often go mad. And I don't know if he could know exactly how many time was remaining for his release.
Linda wrote: "There will always be those who find themselves in circumstances where they require the help of others. Thank goodness for private charities which step in when there seems no other form of aid available."This is my point. Why not create such a society where this help could be provided by all the society? Healthcare, free education etc. People often choose the charities instead a more efficient form of it because it make them feel better. Most people praises those who make charitable work at the same time that those who make it criticises governmental programs to do the same. If the society did it those ones would be viewed just as regular people. Regular egotistical people who want to keep the poor always poor.
The image Hugo's writing creates with JVJ standing over the Bishop in his bed is powerful. I can see a director wanting to film that scene. And I can see filming it in the low light of night -- just enough light to make out the faces -- making it all the more commanding. He didn't know if he should smash his skull or kiss his hand. What extremes run through JVJ's mind. Wonderful chapter.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "The image Hugo's writing creates with JVJ standing over the Bishop in his bed is powerful. I can see a director wanting to film that scene. And I can see filming it in the low light of night -- jus..."I want to watch a french series with Gerard Depardieu as Valjean and John Malkovich as Javert since I get it on TV at the beginning of the 2000's. I did not watch it already because I want to read the book first.
Petit GervaisLooks like JVJ is having an epiphany.
You know, for the rest of this novel I'm going to obsess over whether Petit Gervais gets his 40 sou piece back or not.
Mod
Looks like JVJ is having an epiphany.
You know, for the rest of this novel I'm going to obsess over whether Petit Gervais gets his 40 sou piece back or not."
You will find out and this small incident will be important to the story.
Robin wrote: "You will find out and this small incident will be important to the story. "Really? Great!!!!
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Petit GervaisLooks like JVJ is having an epiphany.
You know, for the rest of this novel I'm going to obsess over whether Petit Gervais gets his 40 sou piece back or not."
Although it may not be as important as Petit Gervais’ stolen sous, I’m wondering what the Bishop did with the stolen goods given to him by Cravatte? I don’t think it’s been referenced again since it was received by the Bishop? I only bring it up because thievery, big or small, well intentioned or not, the repercussions of it, appear to be the impetus of change or transformation so far, not to see if Hugo writes about it again. In fact, I would rather not know if it is addressed as it’s still quite early in the game, unless it has been and I missed it. Hehe.
Ami wrote: "Although it may not be as important as Petit Gervais’ stolen sous, I’m wondering what the Bishop did with the stolen goods given to him by Cravatte?"I inferred the bishop did with it what he does with everything of monetary value: he gave it (or converted it into francs and gave it) to the poor. Something said, I can't remember what and I'm too lazy to look, led me to believer that.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Although it may not be as important as Petit Gervais’ stolen sous, I’m wondering what the Bishop did with the stolen goods given to him by Cravatte?"I inferred the bishop did with it ..."
Yep, sounds par for the course! I was expecting more drama around it considering the Robin Hood-esque acquisition of it.
Me too. I wondered if the bishop hadn't met the thief on his trip. Maybe one of his guides? Or just someone hanging in the back of the crowd as townspeople came out onto the street to see what this bishop was all about? My takeaway was that the mountain people protected these thieves, they could seek safe harbor among them. Perhaps they shared the loot.
This is really a great discussion. I have some experience with accused and incarcerated people as a lawyer practicing indigent criminal defense, and to me JVJ’s escape attempts don’t seem implausible at all. The process of being incarcerated does weird things to people, mainly because it’s so dehumanizing, and when nobody around you treats you like a human I think eventually that seeps into your own self-image and affects your decisions. We know that JVJ has already cut himself off from info about his sister and her children, the very people he went to prison for as he tried to feed them, and his parents are dead, so what does he have to lose in trying to escape? Just his own freedom, and we know that’s not particularly valuable for JVJ in isolation.
At this point I think he’s driven solely by his desire for justice and revenge. Add in JVJ’s lack of impulse control and you’ve got a fool-proof recipe for multiple failed escape attempts. It doesn’t seem rational or believable to us, today, but I think it’s in keeping with the mindset of many imprisoned people that JVJ would seize upon any opportunity to escape, even to his detriment. It has to do with hopelessness and the desire for instant gratification more than anything else.
I guess what I’m saying is that having your liberty confiscated because you were forced to resort to stealing bread to feed your starving family seems so unfair that I can easily imagine JVJ’s taking advantage of every opportunity (“turn”) to escape. JVJ sees no justice in the justice system so he’s compelled to rebel against it. I’ve had clients who have self-sabotaged much more spectacularly than this, unfortunately. It’s almost like dealing with an addict. Lots of denial, a tenuous grasp on reality, more interest in immediate gratification than any sort of long-term outlook, hatred for the people who put you into this position, etc.
Jill wrote: "This is really a great discussion. I have some experience with accused and incarcerated people as a lawyer practicing indigent criminal defense, and to me JVJ’s escape attempts don’t seem implausib..."At this point I think he’s driven solely by his desire for justice and revenge...JVJ sees no justice in the justice system so he’s compelled to rebel against it...It doesn’t seem rational or believable to us, today, but I think it’s in keeping with the mindset of many imprisoned people that JVJ would seize upon any opportunity to escape, even to his detriment.
I didn’t understand how justice and revenge would drive him to self sabotage, at first, but as I kept reading I was struck by JVJ sees no justice in the justice system so he’s compelled to rebel against it. Yes, it does seem convoluted, JillB, and all the more devastating in the end. What an ugly truth.
JVJ doesn't go over the deep end until he hears that his sister and children are no longer together. From what he is told they have left their home and his sister has only one of her children with her. Where are the others? Dead? This is what drives him over the edge. Not the harsh treatment, which he is better suited physically to withstand than most men, but the loss, the sense of failure, the realization that he has nothing left to return to. He's failed his family; he's locked up in here when he should be out there helping them. And now he has nothing to return to, nothing to live for. This is why I sometimes think his escapes were suicide attempts. Death by gendarme.
Since the rest is speculation on what happens in the future, I insert it as spoiler. (view spoiler)
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "JVJ doesn't go over the deep end until he hears that his sister and children are no longer together. From what he is told they have left their home and his sister has only one of her children with ..."Their news is the hair that broke the camel’s back, so to speak. Without them, yes, he becomes untethered. Yet, I found myself heavily embroiled in everything that brought him to the point than what pushed him over, when both aspects share equal bearing on the outcome. The details of the complexities for JVj are woven with such precision by Hugo that the delineating factors attributed to him become all the more pronounced and substantial to the story.
This is why I sometimes think his escapes were suicide attempts.
Death by suicide is bad enough, but multiple failed suicide attempts has to add insult to injury on JVj’s part. Perhaps, this is where the spirituality aspect shows its divine hand, having watched over him, knowing of a greater purpose for him?
Guilt, Despair -- weapons of mass destruction. In his time of need, his sister takes care of him (since he was a child). In her time of need, he fails her. The guilt must lay heavily upon his soul, leading to despair (spiritual, intellectual, and emotional).
It's said the his family are no longer together? I guess I lost it when I read it. Where it is said?
Part 1, Book II, around page 73, Rose translationDuring the whole time he was in Toulon he had only once heard talk of his sister. It was, I think, toward the end of his fourth year of captivity. I no longer remember through what channel the news reached him. Someone, who had known them back home, had seen his sister. She was in Paris. She lived in a mean street near Saint-Sulpice,8 the rue du Gindre. She had only one child with her by then, a little boy, the baby of the bunch. Where were the other six? She herself, perhaps, did not know ..."
Mod
Thank you for these excellent insights from your work and the reminder that people are not rational actors especially under difficult conditions.
To add to Xan Shadowflutter's reference, Hugo describes the plight of these poor children"It is the old story. These poor little lives, these creatures of God, henceforth without support, or guide, or asylum; they passed away wherever chance led, who knows even? Each took a different path...and sank..into the chilling dark which engulfs solitary destinies; that sullen gloom where are lost so many ill-fated souls in the sombre advance of the human race." p.91-92 Wilbur translation
He goes on to say that after a few years in the galley even JVJ forgot them. One assumes it is after he had found out that his sister and one child were living in Paris. But that was the only and last time he ever had news of them. Hugo says where there was a wound when he first entered the galleys, only a scar remained.
Truly society had destroyed his humanity and cared not at all for what the children suffered either.
Yes, Linda, the children suffered too. We're talking about a time when there was little or no government assistance. I suspect one didn't have to be in prison to lose your humanity. How horrible must it have been to grow up on the streets of Paris or London without parents or parents who cared, relying on other orphaned or abandoned children or the likes of a Fagin or Bill Sikes for your daily bread? Never had a chance.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Part 1, Book II, around page 73, Rose translationDuring the whole time he was in Toulon he had only once heard talk of his sister. It was, I think, toward the end of his fourth year of captivity...."
Thank you, Xan!
Linda wrote: "To add to Xan Shadowflutter's reference, Hugo describes the plight of these poor children
"It is the old story. These poor little lives, these creatures of God, henceforth without support, or guide..."
Thank you, Linda!
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Barnaby Rudge (other topics)Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (other topics)
The Underground Railroad (other topics)
Page 97-The peculiarity of punishment of this kind (in the galleys) in which...what is brutalizing predominates, is to transform little by little by a slow stupefaction, a man into an animal, sometimes into a wild beast. JVJ’s repeated and obstinate attempts to escape are enough to prove that such is the strange effect of the law upon a human soul. JVJ had renewed these attempts, so wholly useless and foolish, as often as an opportunity offered, without one moment’s thought of the result, or of the experience already undergone. He escaped wildly, like a wolf on seeing his cage door open. Instinct said “Away”. Reason said “Stay”. But before a temptation so mighty, reason fled; instinct alone remained. The beast alone was in play. When he was retaken...severities only made him still more fierce.