The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
This topic is about
Les Misérables
All Other Previous Group Reads
>
Les Miserables - Week 02
I felt bad for him when he steals the silver. I felt bad again when he steals the boy's coin. But I felt very sad for knowing why he was jailed. The law can be very unjust.
Book 1A poor young man gets caught stealing a piece of bread for his younger famished siblings. A prison sentence of five years quickly turns into many more. Nineteen years later Jean Valjean emerges from the prison gates an angry and defeated soul, hardened by the draconian justice system and jaded by an even more corrupt society. Reading about a free JVj traveling with his yellow passport, he’s treated worse than a pariah. He’s turned away from every inn, regardless of having the funds to pay, seeking refuge from the harsh cold, in want of a warm meal. Finally, JVj finds a place to lay his head, only to realize it is a dog pen. Hugo writes…
he again finds himself alone in the street without lodging, roof, or shelter, driven even from the straw-bed of that wretched dog-kennel. He threw himself rather than seated himself on a stone, and it appears that some one who was passing heard him exclaim, I am not even a dog (59, Wilbur)!Ending up at the Bishop’s home came of no surprise; yet, everything from that point truly was. Honestly, I thought the Bishop a goner during their exchange before retiring for the night.
He turned abruptly towards the old man, crossed his arms, and casting a wild look upon his host, exclaimed in a harsh voice…Who tells you that I am not a murderer (72, Wilbur)JVj’s rough exterior and hardened interior did not help his case in appealing to the rest of the Bishop’s household, but the Bishop shows him compassion and understanding.
While they were with heavy hammer-strokes behind his head riveting the bolt of his iron collar he was weeping. The tears choked his words, and he only succeeded in saying from time to time: I was a pruners Faverolles. Then sobbing as he was, he raised his right hand and lowered it seven times, as if he was touching seven heads of unequal height, and at this gesture one could guess that whatever he had done, had been to feed and clothe seven little children (74, Wilbur).As I learned more of his backstory, I was reminded of the previous book and M. Myriel’s beginnings, Hugo gives each a different treatment in their descriptions; JvJ lacks specifics in places and names of those affiliated to him, while M. Myriel is characterized with in-depth details for those associated to him. It is as if by not acknowledging JvJ’s family by name and giving M. Myriel the royal treatment, Hugo speaks to the inequality between the two socio-economic classes; that the poor are easily forgotten, as good as nameless, and unworthy of respect; versus those with a more affluent background, who garner respect because of name but station as well. If anything, at this point, JvJ is one hell of a sympathetic character!
The state of being tortured by the sea seems to come naturally to Hugo as read here, but scenes from The Man Who Laughs come back to the forefront as well. Much of that novel had the sea and its torturous effects wreaking havoc on man.
Gem wrote: "I wanted to say thank you to those who are reading this selection in French and with editions that have footnotes. The additional information is excellent and brings a lot of clarity to the discuss..."Why was Valjean subjected to such transformation?
I thought this book to be quite poignant, the beginning of JvJ’s narrative reminiscent of the biblical nativity story. Whether, or not, that makes him a Jesus-like character remains to be seen, however. He's ended up back on the doorstep of the Bishop, I guess we'll see what happens to him thereafter. My guess is that he allows God back into his heart with the help of the Bishop, maybe?
Gem wrote: "I wanted to say thank you to those who are reading this selection in French and with editions that have footnotes. The additional information is excellent and brings a lot of clarity to the discuss..."What was the change that occurred in Valjean after the Bishop "bought back his soul from Satan" with the silver? Would this bargain have been successful with every person?
What was this, Gem? It read to me like an anti Faustian judo chop on Hugo's part! It paints M. Myriel in a more Christ-like image, buying back the soul of JVj with the silver, having the ability to do so. I'm not sure what it means as to the purchase of redemption for one's soul, however. I guess souls can be bought by both good and evil, why not? It seems fair enough.
Gem wrote: "I wanted to say thank you to those who are reading this selection in French and with editions that have footnotes. The additional information is excellent and brings a lot of clarity to the discuss..."The Bishop's kindness moves Valjean profoundly but does not regenerate him. Rising stealthily in the middle of the night Valjean steals the Bishop's silver from a cupboard above the sleep man's head and is prepared to kill him. What prevents Valjean from killing the Bishop?
Hugo tells us Jean Valjean was not, we have seen, of an evil nature (78, Wilbur). He's been hardened by his lot in life. He feels great remorse for his misdeeds; thus, it shows he does not lack a conscience. There is good in him yet. The Bishop is also the first person to show JVj any real kindness, maybe on some small scale he reinstates what's been missing in JVj's outlook on society...that not all men are cruel and inhumane?
I echo some of the same points Ami has made. JVJ had been a good man. He took responsibility as head of his sister’s family. He was a hard worker. His crime was in stealing bread for the starving children. I believe this essential goodness in his character was necessary for his later transformation. It was prison which changed him into something less than human. He felt abandoned by society which resulted in a hatred for this same society and desire for revenge. JVJ still motivated by his feelings of society treating him unjustly, most recently with the prison giving him less money than he thought he was owed. Myriel’s silver will compensate for this loss. Hugo seems to be portraying a mind still swirling in sometimes contrary thoughts. But the entrenched sense of revenge and “being owed” wins out as he escapes with the silver. When he encounters Petit Gervais, JVJ still instinctively responds as more beast than human with the theft of the 40 sous and threats against Petit Gervais. When JVJ finally moves from his spot and sees the 40 sous it seems as if he’s come out of a reverie. As if clarity has taken hold and he realizes what he has done. It is now that JVJ begins to fulfill his promise to Myriel. He had not been able to accept Myriel’s pardon and renounce his hatred when he had first left the Bishop’s house. Hugo again describes the complexity of thoughts and emotions roiling in JVJ as he desperately shouts for Petit Gervais, asks the priest to arrest him, gives away money for the poor and ends up crying and then praying in front of Myriel’s door. For me, it was almost exhausting to read Hugo’s depiction of JVJ’s transformation. An emotional turbulence quite singular.
Ami wrote: the beginning of JvJ’s narrative reminiscent of the biblical nativity story..."Like Ami, I was very much reminded of the biblical nativity story - "no room at the inn" and also the parable of the Good Samaritan where many people pass by a traveller in need and cross over to the other side of the road or refuse to help - one of those unchristian people in the Bible is even a priest in contrast to M. Myriel.
I was wondering why JVJ would try and break out of jail so close to being set free and then attempting it several times over. JVJ isn't a cold hard murderer. He paid that woman for the milk, which his nieces and nephews drank all the time. He he got arrested, he was also stealing bread for them too. He did try to give that boy, with the hurdy gurdy, his coin back. It seems that one bad choice sent him down a path and through a governmental system that set him at a disadvantage. Therefore, he was impulsive and stole the sliver. I liked the Bishop's response when he told him that he forgot to take the candle holders. Can you imagine anyone responding like that, especially nowadays? I also like that the Bishop's response when he found the sliver basket, he was more worried about the flowers that it was squashing. It's as if only the Bishop can give him the sliver because the Bishop is looking at the bigger picture, which is supplied to him through his devotion to God.
Mod
As a released convict he has the yellow passport which marks him, just as today landlords and employers may shun someone with a criminal record, no matter what it is or the time served.
I thought the idea of him being cheated by the prison and later at the day job was a good touch. Criminals often feel they have been unfairly victimized, but in his case it is true. He is supposed to be grateful to get anything.
JVJ's desire for revenge made me consider if Hugo was comparing his motives with those of the revolutionaries who exacted such excessive bloody revenge on the royalists and all their associates. I was reminded of 'Barnaby Rudge' in which was described a historically recorded incident where a young widow was hanged for attempting to steal a length of cloth so that she could provide her children with decent clothes. This and other such injustices led to days of rioting in London eventually put down by the militia and resulting in the loss of many lives.JVJ is described as a man whose instincts usually overcome his reasoning. It is not until Myriel gives him the candlesticks that this begins to change. The change is not completed until he becomes ashamed of his final instinctive act when he steals the coin from Little Gervais.
JJ wrote: "I was wondering why JVJ would try and break out of jail so close to being set free and then attempting it several times over. JVJ isn't a cold hard murderer. He paid that woman for the milk, which ..."Trev describes JVj in m 11 as a man whose instincts usually overcome his reasoning, and you touch on it as well. I think it may answer why JVj would repeatedly attempt to break free from jail. Serving a nineteen year sentence, JVj entering the system at so young an age, the experience has shaped his mind. He’s lost his ability to reason and use logic, relegated to acting on compulsion... he just doesn’t know any better, unfortunately. What happens to domesticated animal living in the wild? After a while, they become feral, right...resorting to instinct?
I also wonder if he came to the conclusion it was safer for him to be on the inside than it would outside of the prison gates? Living, essentially raised in a prison, reintegrating into society would be daunting. Of course, that would be giving him too much credit, having foresight, and in the end it just doesn’t equate to his personality of an extremely defeated person.
Trev wrote: "JVJ's desire for revenge made me consider if Hugo was comparing his motives with those of the revolutionaries who exacted such excessive bloody revenge on the royalists and all their associates. I ..."BR... I didn’t finish reading it, but I do remember this detail from the “Notes to the Reader” section. If I recall correctly, it was mentioned how many thought the punishment didn’t fit the crime. It was the shop keepers who wanted to make an example out of the woman, preventing any future thievery from the poor and destitute.
Nice comparison!
Maureen wrote: "Ami wrote: the beginning of JvJ’s narrative reminiscent of the biblical nativity story..."Like Ami, I was very much reminded of the biblical nativity story - "no room at the inn" and also the par..."
Keeping with the “nativity” theme, are you thinking what I’m thinking... a rejuvenated and second coming of JVj, that he will be born, again?
Mod
A little behind but starting to catch up.I'm not even a dog.
Said after being rejected at two inns, a house, and a dog house. Even the mastiff has a place to sleep.
------------------------
JVJ doesn't shake his fist at the two innkeepers or artisan for rejecting him even though he has money, but upon seeing the Church he raises and shakes his. He also doesn't knock on the church door to ask for shelter or charity. I suspect Hugo knew contemporary readers would connect with this or he wouldn't have been as obvious about it?
-----------------------
The town's treatment is most unchristian. On the other hand, they know he is an ex-convict because the gendarme spreads the word. I would call this a dilemma, except no one seems to struggle with the choice. They are quite emphatic.
The New Testament teaches you to feed and house the stranger, but the stranger is an ex-convict. I can understand their reaction. It would be almost impossible for an ex-convict to find work to earn a living. With no help from the Church (JVJ thinks so) and with no government assistance, an ex-convict is left with a choice: turn back to crime (candlesticks) or roll over and die. Turning back to crime justifies and hardens the townspeople's resolve. The perfect vicious circle.
Mod
Robin wrote: "Exactly so. The criminal is left no real choice but then blamed for whatever he does."And when they turned again to crime the people who suspected of them would say: You see? I was right. They were in prison for one reason.
And will sleep with no remorse.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "A little behind but starting to catch up.I'm not even a dog.
Said after being rejected at two inns, a house, and a dog house. Even the mastiff has a place to sleep.
------------------------
JVJ ..."
The town's treatment is most unchristian. On the other hand, they know he is an ex-convict because the gendarme spreads the word. I would call this a dilemma, except no one seems to struggle with the choice. They are quite emphatic.
And Hugo ensures that we see it this way. A lot of imploring on his part goes on in this particular book between pages (78-79 Wilbur). He writes rather passionately about, and point blank asks the reader to reflect upon the injustices JVj endures as a child of God. What code of law/value and state of being/norms is JVj supposed to be living by... that of God’s, or that of society’s? You’re right, it is a dilemma...
It's a vicious, self-perpetuating circle. The centrifugal force keeps throwing you back into it. For the many, it's safer to turn your back than to care.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "It's a vicious, self-perpetuating circle. The centrifugal force keeps throwing you back into it. For the many, it's safer to turn your back than to care."😑 I loathe apathy. By turning one’s back, we just become complicit to the cycle.
Trev wrote: "JVJ's desire for revenge made me consider if Hugo was comparing his motives with those of the revolutionaries who exacted such excessive bloody revenge on the royalists and all their associates. I ..."Perhaps the similarity is that if you are poor, downtrodden, without hope and reviled, you feel justified in any revenge you might be able to take against those you deem the perpetrators. Because of Myriel’s intervention, JVJ at least undergoes a transfiguration able to abandon his revenge filled life. I don’t think the same could be said for the revolutionaries- as the conventionist said- revolution necessitates violence and bloodshed.
Mod
I couldn't agree more and yet this seems to be society's norm (with a few exceptions).
I completely missed seeing the nativity comparison. That sheds a whole new light on Valjean's situation for me.
I wanted to say, I’m loving reading this novel so much with all of you that I quite literally dislike everything else I’m reading alongside it. And by everything else, I stopped reading Barnaby Rudge after 300 pages, I’m going through the motions with Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and can’t for the life of me get past the first 12 pages of The Underground Railroad! Oy!
Gem wrote: "Ami wrote: "😑 I loathe apathy. By turning one’s back, we just become complicit to the cycle. "I couldn't agree more and yet this seems to be society's norm (with a few exceptions).
I completely..."
What would be one of those exceptions for apathy in your mind?
Yes, from what I understand there are some jaw dropping twists and turns in Les Mis! I’m rather intrigued with our hardened criminal and his purchased redeemed soul.
Mod
I was thinking of people, like Mother Teresa. In my mind, people, in general, are pretty apathetic. "Did you hear...? Oh, yes, someone should do something..." And that's as far as it goes. There are some amazing people out there who have gotten their hands dirty and done something about societies problems. I think for most people they think, "I'm only one person, what could I do?"
Ami wrote: "I wanted to say, I’m loving reading this novel so much with all of you that I quite literally dislike everything else I’m reading alongside it. And by everything else, I stopped reading [book:Barna..."Barnaby Rudge was a difficult read for me but I got through it because I was interested more in the historical facts about the London riots (which are hardly ever discussed) than the story of Barnaby Rudge himself. It has also brought it home that in the late eighteenth century, the poor in London were treated just as badly as the poor in Paris and beyond. And despite revolution and the coming of Napoleon it took a long time before anything improved for them.
Gem wrote: "Ami wrote: "What would be one of those exceptions for apathy in your mind."I was thinking of people, like Mother Teresa. In my mind, people, in general, are pretty apathetic. "Did you hear...? Oh..."
I did hear, and yeah, they should do something about it! Ha! So true, Gem. Good Lord.
I believe more people tend to be apathetic for two reasons: they are too short sighted about the gravity of the injustice, or taking for granted they can coast on by because said issue doesn’t affect them directly.
Helplessness, yes, the “what can I do I’m only one person” mentality... I wonder if this is why so many look to/for a savior instead of leader?
Trev wrote: "Ami wrote: "I wanted to say, I’m loving reading this novel so much with all of you that I quite literally dislike everything else I’m reading alongside it. And by everything else, I stopped reading..."Barnaby was good, from what I gathered in those 300 pages, definitely an underrated novel in the Dickens canon.
the poor in London were treated just as badly as the poor in Paris and beyond
Yet, both societies were also heavily influenced by the clergy. Was it religion that corrupted society, if not to a degree?
Someone wondered why JVJ would attempt escape in his last year of imprisonment (more than once). I wonder this too. What was Hugo saying? Perhaps that prison fries the mind. Okay, but maybe it has more to do with that chapter ending question:What had gone on in his soul?
Interestingly, it does not ask about his mind.
And I think Hugo is leaving it to us to figure out. :-)
Mod
I have been watching the series "Victoria" that was on PBS a couple years ago, and I am up to the Irish potato famine. Many in England, including Anglican clergy, felt it was the fault of the lazy Catholic Irish that they were starving and it would be wrong to "reward" them with free food and make them "dependent." Someone pointed out that the system which forbade Catholics from owing land (I guess similar to US sharecroppers) contributed to the problem. I feel the same way today - it is wonderful to have soup kitchens and private charities like Mother Teresa (although there are some quibbles about her) but I feel there is something wrong with societies that need that. Especially when they call themselves Christian. I seem to remember Jesus supporting the poor, the outcast, and even criminals. Father Myriel is the only one who actually lives Christian teaching.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Someone wondered why JVJ would attempt escape in his last year of imprisonment (more than once). I wonder this too. What was Hugo saying? Perhaps that prison fries the mind. Okay, but maybe it has ..."Xan, what do you think about this passage...
(view spoiler)(not a spoiler, only a long quote)Hasn’t he asked about his mind?
Ami wrote: "Was that state of mind which we have attempted to analyse as perfectly clear to Jean Valjean as we have tried to render it to our readers? Did Jean Valjean distinctly see, after their formation, and had he distinctly seen, while they were forming, all the elements of which his moral misery was made up?"Ami,
That's a wonderful passage, Ami. It speaks to his state of mind. It might also speak to his soul. Certainly his being in the dark might. His moral misery may be one of spiritual and intellectual despair.
There is anger in his soul. We see a glimpse of it when he raises his fist and shakes it at the Church. We see it again when he sneaks into the room with the sleeping Bishop. That's a dangerous moment; he's quite capable of killing. But something stops him. His soul isn't lost, but it is teetering.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Was that state of mind which we have attempted to analyse as perfectly clear to Jean Valjean as we have tried to render it to our readers? Did Jean Valjean distinctly see, after their f..."Hugo in these two pages shows great hope! for JVj, for lost and hardened men; if placed in a more receptive and nurturing environment, a place of good, that man has the capability to flourish and for the greater good of society. Myriel is a transformed man, though he was not a hardened criminal like JVj, his morals were criminal enough living a debauched aristocratic life. This same path of change and transformation may be open to JVj as well, the evidence is pointing in that direction anyway. Yes, his mind and soul are not completely lost! At least, this is what Hugo is telling us in these two pages (78-79).
I think if Hugo were alive today, the Norwegian or German prison system would have brought him great delight, focusing on rehabilitation and not retribution. It’s a system unlike anything we’ve heard or seen in the developed world.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.busi...
Why Norway’s Prison System is So Successful, Business Insider
There is a 60 Minutes expose on their system I remember watching a while ago. It’s worth googling for those unfamiliar.
Robin wrote: "Great discussion, everyone! Although Hugo may lay his views on pretty thick, it's clear there is still a lot to intrigue us today. An "upright" member of society could say, "Too bad, but he broke........'I have been watching the series "Victoria" that was on PBS a couple years ago, and I am up to the Irish potato famine. Many in England, including Anglican clergy, felt it was the fault of the lazy Catholic Irish that they were starving and it would be wrong to "reward" them with free food and make them "dependent." Someone pointed out that the system which forbade Catholics from owing land (I guess similar to US sharecroppers) contributed to the problem. I feel the.....'
It is worth remembering that much of the land originally owned by the Irish Catholics was confiscated by The English Protestant aristocracy well before the Potato Famine occurred.
Moving on to modern times, it seems that the UK at least is gradually reverting back to a 21st century 'feudal system' that people like Victor Hugo did their best to eradicate.
See links below.........
https://inews.co.uk/news/long-reads/a...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-scot...
Robin wrote: "I feel the same way today - it is wonderful to have soup kitchens and private charities like Mother Teresa (although there are some quibbles about her) but I feel there is something wrong with societies that need that. "This is how I feel too about this. Everybody loves charities but no one fight for a society where no one need help from them.
Not some, there's a lot of problems about Mother Teresa.
There will always be those who find themselves in circumstances where they require the help of others. Thank goodness for private charities which step in when there seems no other form of aid available. In the United States, we are still arguing about whether health care is a right or privilege, where what color your skin is affects your treatment in the “justice” system, where now the meaning of the Statue of Liberty is being subverted and I have just heard that if you are LGBTQ, companies doing business with the federal government may be free to discriminate against you if they cite religious grounds. I don’t believe Hugo would think very much of the United States in 2019. At the present, the country is not the protector of victims of poverty, violence, discrimination, and prejudice. This country has great need of charities and activist organizations. What can one person do in the face of this? Vote. It is a democracy’s most powerful tool.
"Can man, created good by God, be made wicked by man?" "Isn’t there in every human soul, wasn’t there in the soul of Jean Valjean, in particular, an initial spark, a divine element, incorruptible in this world, immortal in the next, that good can bring out, prime, ignite, set on fire and cause to blaze splendidly, and that evil can never entirely extinguish?"Perhaps these are the questions Hugo wants to explore.
Someone wondered why JVJ would escape with less than a year remaining in his sentence. I wonder about this too. JVJ weighs his actions against society's punishment of those actions and decides society is guilty. I'm not entirely comfortable with this. Yes, he factors in his theft and the escapes, but I'm not sure he gives his escapes the full weight of his responsibilities they deserve. It is his repeated escapes that are responsible for him doing 19 years instead of 5. Had he not tried escaping he might have found his sister and nieces and nephews. At least he would still be young.
Perhaps it's despair and hopelessness that drives him to it. Perhaps it's the anger that gnaws away at his insides. Or maybe these were attempts at suicide by gendarme. Or maybe, like the narrator says, he's an imbecile but not an ignoramus. Maybe all these things together made him strike out at the iniquity of it all.
Whatever it is JVJ makes foolish decisions. He's flawed, certainly no angel. The good has a sprinkling of bad. Let's see if that is a common theme.
In my understanding of JVJ, his rational humanity has withered in the galley. Compare him to an animal with its foot caught in a hunter’s trap. So desperate to escape, it will chew off its own foot in order to do so. There is just instinct for survival at any cost in that animal and I believe that is what motivated JVJ in his repeated attempts at escape from the galley. Perhaps what we would consider an irrational belief that his only chance at survival was to escape.
Linda wrote: "In my understanding of JVJ, his rational humanity has withered in the galley. Compare him to an animal with its foot caught in a hunter’s trap. So desperate to escape, it will chew off its own foot..."I agree with Linda in the sense that JVJ's prison sentence has reduced him to the senses of an ill treated dog, cowering in the corner waiting for the next beating. Any chance of escape would be taken even if it didn't seem rational. When he is set free even the kindness of Myriel is not enough to alter that instinctive state, just as a rehomed animal would still react for some time by biting its new owner, until the memory of the ill treament that went on before gradually fades.
JVJ robs the bishop because Myriel, despite his kindness, is still a figure of authority and therefore associated with those who gave him the beatings and humiliated him. It is only when he shamefully robs a defenceless child that reason finally triumphs over instinct and JVJ begins to look for a path to redemption.
Trev wrote: "I agree with Linda in the sense that JVJ's prison sentence has reduced him to the senses of an ill treated dog, cowering in the corner waiting for the next beating. Any chance of escape would be taken even if it didn't seem rational."I know I'm in the minority on this, but we will have to agree to disagree. A cowering dog does not know he will be released tomorrow. JVJ does. He also knows he has survived for more than four years and that he can survive a little longer. He also knows If he escapes he is wanted and chased.
I think his continued escaping represents something else, although I don't know what that is yet. Yes, my thoughts are evolving about escape as a repeating motif. After all, even those who only have the vaguest idea of what Les Miserables is about know (view spoiler).
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Trev wrote: "I agree with Linda in the sense that JVJ's prison sentence has reduced him to the senses of an ill treated dog, cowering in the corner waiting for the next beating. Any chance of escap..."You’re not alone. I often use a similar reference when discussing what separates man from animal...the inevitability of death, man knows it, animals have no inclination of it. However, like man, they do have a sense for good and bad; attempting to escape an abusive environment would be common to both, no?
Xan, I don’t know if this applies, or if I may have missed your point; but, I thought of my rescue dog when commenting about escaping. Francis and his three other beagle siblings were found in a 4X4 crate out in the boonies of some southern backwoods locale. When they were rescued, they were found doused in sulfur and motor oil, barely any hair and infested with God knows what insects. Cooped up in that crate for five years, Francis’ front teeth were worn down and extremely damaged from where he had tried to chew his way out of it. Once released, they were first shocked by the open door but came pouring out and were stunted by this new feeling beneath their paws and bodies... the grass. Never having walked on grass, much less been socialized with human contact, they had no idea what was going on in those first 10-15 minutes. Living under those circumstances really took a toll on his growth and development. It took a good six months before he was rehabilitated and healthy to adopt. Anyway, like man in a dangerous environment, animals too have an innate response to at least attempt to flee from it.
A cowering dog does not know he will be released tomorrow.
Absolutely. According to my understanding, I am under the impression JVj has lost all concept of time, I don’t think he’s fully of sound mind and body. You think different, that he does have an inkling? Maybe this is where we disagree really...
...continued escape represents something else
I hope this comes to fruition if something else other than resorting to animal instincts.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami wrote: "Was that state of mind which we have attempted to analyse as perfectly clear to Jean Valjean as we have tried to render it to our readers? Did Jean Valjean distinctly see, after their f..."Certainly his being in the dark might.
This is a really good point. There’s clearly a parallel between the Bishop and JVj, but Hugo also layers their parallel with a light vs dark theme, the Bishop as light, and JVj as dark.
Linda wrote: "In my understanding of JVJ, his rational humanity has withered in the galley. Compare him to an animal with its foot caught in a hunter’s trap. So desperate to escape, it will chew off its own foot..."Linda, I didn’t scroll high enough before I had commented to Xan about the animal instinct for survival using my own dog as an example. Now it just reads redundant..oops. Anyway, my point echos yours in at least emphasizing that although man is aware of the repercussions of his actions (we like to think, at least), the instinct to act is still animalistic in nature.
Ami,My problem is that I know what I don't believe but don't yet know what I do believe. :) I agree JVJ is treated like an animal. What I don't accept is that he escapes so close to release day (more than once) because he can't take it any more. He can.
Unfortunately I don't really have a better reason for his actions yet. It's just a feeling I have that Hugo is going for something grander and more "spiritual" and fundamental to our species than "he can't take it anymore." Also, Christian values seem to be a repeating theme/question.
I'm also a little leery of making comparisons between animal and human. Comparing a person's treatment to the treatment of an animal is fine; its imagery can nail the ugliness of it.
But comparing a mistreated animal's reaction to a mistreated person's can be problematic. Like you say, we can reason and rationalize in all sorts of ways an animal can't, so we shouldn't necessarily expect a human to react the way an animal would.
Yes, we have instincts. But we also have higher brain functions that override instinct. It will depend on the situation. Given that he will be released soon, I'd say the higher brain functions would override the instinct -- something the animal cannot do.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami,My problem is that I know what I don't believe but don't yet know what I do believe. :) I agree JVJ is treated like an animal. What I don't accept is that he escapes so close to release day (..."
My problem is that I know what I don't believe but don't yet know what I do believe. :)
Hehe.
What I don't accept is that he escapes so close to release day (more than once) because he can't take it any more. He can
It’s something about that time, how close it is to the release date. I have another dog analogy, but I’m going to spare you. Let’s just read further, I’m keeping my eyes peeled for more spiritual influences. I’m going to have questions, be ready ;P
Like you say, we can reason and rationalize in all sorts of ways an animal can't, so we shouldn't necessarily expect a human to react the way an animal would.
You strip a human of basic dignities and needs over long periods of time, what are the effects of it on the mind? There is a moment, may it be brief or long-lasting, dependent on the scenario and person, where something subhuman manifests itself in us. It boils down to how we are conditioned, without it, we too give in to our innate and instinctual tendencies.
Ami wrote: "You strip a human of basic dignities and needs over long periods of time, what are the effects of it on the mind? There is a moment, may it be brief or long-lasting, dependent on the scenario and person, where something subhuman manifests itself in us."This is always possible. but having JVJ escape so close to release time is unsatisfying. It's like Hugo decided 5 years wouldn't evoke sufficient empathy for JVJ, so he found a way to add 14 more. :) I've thought of that too.
I think we've taken this as far as it will go. Let's revisit as future readings dictate.
Xan Shadowflutter wrote: "Ami wrote: "You strip a human of basic dignities and needs over long periods of time, what are the effects of it on the mind? There is a moment, may it be brief or long-lasting, dependent on the sc..."It's like Hugo decided 5 years wouldn't evoke sufficient empathy for JVJ, so he found a way to add 14 more. :) I
That’s just mean on his part, to both JVj and the reader! Ha! It really is a curious detail.
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
Barnaby Rudge (other topics)Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (other topics)
The Underground Railroad (other topics)
Speaking of historical context, I found some information that was helpful to me when reading this week:
The penal laws of the nineteenth century seem absurd to us, but they stem from the primitive mores of tribal society when most property is held in common and theft is a crime often punishable by death. Under the influence of utilitarian philosophy, which considered environment rather than original sin to be the most important element in character formation, thinking men in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries began to take a new look at the legal system and to call for milder laws and a prison system that would rehabilitate rather than degrade the offender. Hugo shares these enlightened views, and in fact his desire for reform of the penal system was the original inspiration for Les Misérables. (source: Cliffnotes)
Why did Jean Valjean steal the Bishop's silver?
How was this act influenced by his experience in prison?
The Bishop's kindness moves Valjean profoundly but does not regenerate him. Rising stealthily in the middle of the night Valjean steals the Bishop's silver from a cupboard above the sleep man's head and is prepared to kill him. What prevents Valjean from killing the Bishop?
What was the change that occurred in Valjean after the Bishop "bought back his soul from Satan" with the silver? Would this bargain have been successful with every person?
What epiphany does Valjean encounter from his experience with Peter Gervais?
Why was Valjean subjected to such transformation?