August 2019 Group Read: Red Harvest by Dashiell Hammett (spoiler thread)

[Bill]

This is the spoiler thread for Red Harvest by Dashiell Hammett. Aditya is the moderator.

[Joseph]

Ah, yes. An annual read for me. It's a quick read, the style is dated, the writing is definitely of its time.
And it's still one hell of a read. Enjoy it - and learn - each time I reread.
Looking forward to other folks comments.

[[deleted user]]

I’m new around here and Red Harvest was an awesome read as my first with the group. Amazing how a nearly 100 year-old crime novel can remain so entertaining. No cyber bullying or AI detection; just good old ice pick murders. Thanks to whoever decided it was time to (re)read this classic! I’m sure I’ll be looking for more by Hammett.

[Aditya]

@Blaine Glad you enjoyed it, you should try to get the rest of Hammett's novels. He wrote just 5 of them and all of them are good to great. His shorter works however are more inconsistent.

[Jean]

Do you think they really talked like that back then? I have to google a lot. I’m enjoying the book. I feel like I’m watching an old b&w gangster movie.

[Tom]

I really enjoyed this very quick and very bloody read. I think I could count the survivors on one hand even if you are missing two fingers. I really loved André Gide's description of Red Harvest as "the last word in atrocity, cynicism, and horror."

[Aditya]

Jean wrote: "Do you think they really talked like that back then? I have to google a lot. I’m enjoying the book. I feel like I’m watching an old b&w gangster movie."

The dialogue is certainly stylized but when it is so good I won't complain. I actually feel a lot of modern writers like Pelecanos and Connelly could do a bit more with their dialogue. As long as my crime reads have a gritty atmosphere I don't mind if the dialogue is hard hitting and shows off its brand of wit. It might not always ring true but I find it way more entertaining and gripping.

[Joseph]

Blaine C wrote: "I’m new around here and Red Harvest was an awesome read as my first with the group. Amazing how a nearly 100 year-old crime novel can remain so entertaining. No cyber bullying or AI detection; just..."

Right, back when men were men were men were men were men.

[MissLemon]

Definitely outside my 'comfort zone', but that's what I'm in this group for!
I've read The Big Sleep but otherwise nothing else like this. I found the almost casual attitude to the rising body count meant I also didn't care about the characters ( or even know who some of them where). The only death I cared about was (view spoiler)[ Dinah, and it felt odd to me that the main character didn't even really seem concerned about that, despite them having become friends. (hide spoiler)]The 'Continental Op'was obviously concerned that he might have done it, or at least be 'framed' for it, but otherwise didn't react any differently than the other deaths, which I found odd. But is this the point? That there were so many deaths they didn't mean anything any more?
Despite how uncomfortable this made me I do want to read more of this kind of book, so I'd be grateful for recommendations.

[Aditya]

@Carolyn Red Harvest has a higher body count compared to a lot of other examples of the hard-boiled genre. So dive right into the genre being sure the worst (when it comes to body count not any other aspect) is behind you.

Recommendations: For starters all novels by Hammett and Chandler. Chandler's Marlowe is a lot more moral than any of Hammett's characters, the prose is also better, so it might be more up your alley. If you like Chandler, go for Ross Macdonald, he is more of the same.

Similar relatively modern authors: James Lee Burke, James Ellroy, James Crumley. Crumley is the successor to those old school writers in style and execution. Ellroy is even more bleak while Burke is the best of the lot combining a Southern Gothic literary wruting style with hard boiled genre conventions.

[Tom]

Aditya wrote: "Similar relatively modern authors: James Lee Burke, James Ellroy, James Crumley. ..."

I'd add Walter Mosley to this list.

[MissLemon]

Aditya wrote: "@Carolyn Red Harvest has a higher body count compared to a lot of other examples of the hard-boiled genre. So dive right into the genre being sure the worst (when it comes to body count not any oth..."

Thank you Aditya (and Tom) I will look into those .

[Aditya]

Tom wrote: "Aditya wrote: "Similar relatively modern authors: James Lee Burke, James Ellroy, James Crumley. ..."

I'd add Walter Mosley to this list."

Walter Mosley is an author who keeps getting suggested to me, I still have not read him. This year I had to decide between reading the debut/most famous book of Mosley or James Crumley. I chose the latter and Crumley had me hooked pushing Mosley to the background. I will get to Mosley sooner rather than later but thanks for reinforcing the recommendation.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Carolyn wrote: "Definitely outside my 'comfort zone', but that's what I'm in this group for!
I've read The Big Sleep but otherwise nothing else like this. I found the almost casual attitude to the ris..."

" I found the almost casual attitude to the rising body count meant I also didn't care about the characters ( or even know who some of them where). The only death I cared about was (view spoiler)The 'Continental Op'was obviously concerned that he might have done it, or at least be 'framed' for it, but otherwise didn't react any differently than the other deaths, which I found odd. But is this the point? That there were so many deaths they didn't mean anything any more?'


You have to understand the Op's character in this book to fully appreciate it. We think of a detective as someone who's going to sort things out and prevail on the side of justice. I think it's interesting that he's called the Op -- "operative" for sure, but really more of an "opportunist."

The bloodier things get, the more he seems to like it. And you're right -- for him, people can be expendable.

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

I'm just one of those people who could care less if I like the characters or not. I look more at why they do what they do.

[Tom]

Aditya wrote: "I will get to Mosley sooner rather than later but thanks for reinforcing the recommendation. ."

Definitely start with Devil in a Blue Dress.

[M.L.]

He's different in this book than the short stories. In those, he didn't play judge and juror. This one, yes. It's as if his job finally got to him and he went down hill. There has to be impartiality anyway to do his job but it got skewed. With reason.

[Aditya]

M.L. wrote: "He's different in this book than the short stories. In those, he didn't play judge and juror. This one, yes. It's as if his job finally got to him and he went down hill. There has to be impartialit..."

I agree in the short stories he is more like a sleuth from one of those parlor mysteries, he analyses the problem , gathers everyone at the end and spells out the solution. He is simply not hard boiled.

[Gem]

I just finished this selection. I agree with the "dated" and "high body" count. I'm not sure if I liked it or not. I might have to read this one again (in the future).

[MissLemon]

Nancy wrote: "I'm just one of those people who could care less if I like the characters or not. I look more at why they do what they do."

I am the same I suppose Nancy, but I'm not sure I get the 'why' here. It's probably me, I didn't have the time to read this one in longer than half hour (at most) stretches, so didn't really feel fully immersed in the world, unfortunately.

He's is an interesting character though, and I agree with the 'opportunist ' point you make.

[[deleted user]]

Nancy wrote: You have to understand the Op's character in this book to fully appreciate it. We think of a detective as someone who's going to sort things out and prevail on the side of justice. I think it's interesting that he's called the Op -- "operative" for sure, but really more of an "opportunist."

The turning point in the story appeared early when the job he was hired for was over, but he OPted to stay to clean up the town. From that point forward, risk and body count be damned, he was all in to the end.

[[deleted user]]

Aditya wrote: "@Blaine Glad you enjoyed it, you should try to get the rest of Hammett's novels. He wrote just 5 of them and all of them are good to great. His shorter works however are more inconsistent."

Will try to Aditya. Thanks!

[Nancy, Co-Moderator]

Blaine C wrote: "Nancy wrote: You have to understand the Op's character in this book to fully appreciate it. We think of a detective as someone who's going to sort things out and prevail on the side of justice. I t..."

right. But not for altruistic reasons -- more for the OPtimal fee of ten grand.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

Tom wrote: "Aditya wrote: "Similar relatively modern authors: James Lee Burke, James Ellroy, James Crumley. ..."

I'd add Walter Mosley to this list."

Yes. Mosley's take on the post-WWII Los Angeles detective story is not to be missed.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

Finished Red Harvest. Definitely an all-timer. I just kept thinking of Clint Eastwood saying "Baxter's over there, Rojo's there, me right smack in the middle."

[Tom]

RJ wrote: "Tom wrote: "Yes. Mosley's take on the post-WWII Los Angeles detective story is not to be missed. ."

I would have also recommended Chester Himes, starting with A Rage in Harlem but the topic was contemporary authors.

[Suki]

Excellent noir, with a few really funny comments from the Op every now and again. My favorites are Sam Spade and Nick and Nora Charles, but I'm definitely going to read the rest of the Ops.

[Aditya]

Suki wrote: "Excellent noir, with a few really funny comments from the Op every now and again. My favorites are Sam Spade and Nick and Nora Charles, but I'm definitely going to read the rest of the Ops."

The short stories are scattered in various collections, so tracking them down will take some work. But do read the only other Continental Op novel the Dain Curse, that is pretty good too.

[Suzy]

I finished this a while back, but haven't had time to comment! It took me a long time to get into this one, almost half-way through. But something kicked me into gear and I really enjoyed the last half. I think it was the mention of the movies that this book influenced that reframed what I was reading. It's definitely like a film noir on the page vs. a murder mystery. Corruption! Violence!

I thought it was interesting that the murder of the man who originally called the Op into town, Donald Willson, went completely unremarked on for almost the remainder of the book. When it was mentioned, it was in an off-handed manner talking about someone else. I also thought it was interesting that when the heat was on, the Op thought about and then actually did take the train to Ogden to hide out. Not sure why, but I kept picturing that this was set in California, but I guess not. Montana?

I enjoyed the tough-guy slang of the time and the humor. Anyway, my summary of the book: Bullets, blood and bodies!

[Aditya]

@Suzy I never saw your comment before, anyway completely agree with your succinct summary. And my guess is the main reason why the initial murder was not referenced later is because Red Harvest was formed by stitching together three or four different stories, only the first of which dealt with that particular murder.

[Suzy]

Aditya wrote: "@Suzy I never saw your comment before, anyway completely agree with your succinct summary. And my guess is the main reason why the initial murder was not referenced later is because Red Harvest was..."

Hi Aditya - I didn't know that this was a blending of several stories. Were they initially printed in magazines/periodicals?

[Aditya]

Pretty sure they were though not completely sure of which magazine but probably Black Mask.

[Bill]

Tom wrote: "RJ wrote: "Tom wrote: "Yes. Mosley's take on the post-WWII Los Angeles detective story is not to be missed. ."

I would have also recommended Chester Himes, starting with [book:A R..."

There will be other opportunities I'm sure, Tom. I enjoyed it as well.

[Tom]

Aditya wrote: ".. Red Harvest was formed by stitching together three or four different stories, only the first of which dealt with that particular murder. "

This is not entirely true. Red Harvest was originally published in serial form in four parts in Black Mask magazine. Per Wikipedia, the four parts were:

Part 1: The Cleansing of Poisonville, Black Mask, November 1927
Part 2: Crime Wanted—Male or Female, Black Mask, December 1927
Part 3: Dynamite, Black Mask, January 1928
Part 4: The 19th Murder, Black Mask, February 1928

[Aditya]

@Tom Thanks for clearing that up. So it was serialized instead of being published as completely separate stories but the serial nature probably makes it a bit episodic.

[Suzy]

Thanks, Tom - that's interesting to know!

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

I must be a bad person. I like the Continental Op's style....

; )

[Aditya]

Who doesn't April? : D

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

: D

[Anna]

I loved the story more than I thought I would—and am so captivated by his writing style I’m dying to try it myself (more PC or I’s be uncomfortable). The way the speak kills me! But apparently it really was a thing, whether everyone was imitating Edward G. Robinson’s screen portrayals of tough guys, or not, I see this same dialogue sprinkled through even modern books that hark back to the period. What a fun time travel this was!
- Anna E. Bendewald