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The Pickwick Club discussion
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Dombey and Son
Dombey and Son
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Dombey, Chapters 1 - 4
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Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "We have some evidence of Dombey evincing emotions but checking himself and nipping them in the bud with a view to propriety. However, the instances nearly always have..."Tristram
So just for clarification, if I wanted to refer to Dombey as being "half-hearted," but wanted to use the German expression, I would say Dombey's engherzig personality.
Hello allWell I have to admit that whilst reading the death scene, particularly with Florence clinging to her mother, there was a tear rolling down my cheek. All I could think of was the desperate situation that Florence was left in.
I was so glad when Mrs "Richards" came on the scene, although I feel for her and her family. I think Dombey does show compassion (for once) when he allows Florence to spend time with Richards and her baby brother, although it is clearly done out of consideration for Paul not Florence.
I'm really enjoying it so far and echo the theme of time. Time seems to reflect what is regimental - Dombey and Son. The Gills seem to reflect compassion and familial affection whilst every object of measurement around them (e.g. barometer) is neglected or forgotten by the fast moving industrial age. Even the timely bells of the nearby church is drowned out by the noise of the busy streets.
When the Toodle family entered the novel my first thought was, didn't we just have an "oodle" character? So I looked and yes, Charity Pecksniff tries her hardest to marry Mr. Moodle in Martin Chuzzlewit. However, it still seemed like I was missing some other "oodles" so I've been searching Dickens books and just found this paragraph in Chapter 12 of Bleak House:"Then there is my Lord Boodle, of considerable reputation with his party, who has known what office is and who tells Sir Leicester Dedlock with much gravity, after dinner, that he really does not see to what the present age is tending. A debate is not what a debate used to be; the House is not what the House used to be; even a Cabinet is not what it formerly was. He perceives with astonishment that supposing the present government to be overthrown, the limited choice of the Crown, in the formation of a new ministry, would lie between Lord Coodle and Sir Thomas Doodle — supposing it to be impossible for the Duke of Foodle to act with Goodle, which may be assumed to be the case in consequence of the breach arising out of that affair with Hoodle. Then, giving the Home Department and the leadership of the House of Commons to Joodle, the Exchequer to Koodle, the Colonies to Loodle, and the Foreign Office to Moodle, what are you to do with Noodle? You can't offer him the Presidency of the Council; that is reserved for Poodle. You can't put him in the Woods and Forests; that is hardly good enough for Quoodle. What follows? That the country is shipwrecked, lost, and gone to pieces (as is made manifest to the patriotism of Sir Leicester Dedlock) because you can't provide for Noodle!"
Tristram wrote: "The German word would be "engherzig", a surprisingly short word with few letters." I too was rather surprised there could be a German word, at least one you use with only nine letters in it, however you have almost made up for it by also using the word Eiskunstlaufmutter in a different post. Also, if you could perhaps refer to mothers instead of one mother you may be able to add a few more letters to it. ;-}
Kim wrote: " However, it still seemed like I was missing some other "oodles" so I've been searching Dickens books and just found this paragraph in Chapter 12 of Bleak House:"I just finished reading Bleak House and so I laughed when I read the name Mr. Toodle. I thought "what is it with Dickens and the *oodles?!" Ha ha.
Lene wrote: "Kim,That is an interesting point of view.
I always thought that Dickens was incapable of portraying his favorite women for the same reason. Look at his mother figure in David Copperfield (this wi..."
I love your descriptions of Dickens women (although I wouldn't take it from Everyman or Tristram). ;-}
I had never heard of helicopter moms, tiger moms or Latte-macchiato mothers so I looked them up. I was rather amazed that when I searched each one of these moms did come up and here are the shortened descriptions from my search:"Tiger mom - a mother who is a strict disciplinarian. The term tiger mom or tiger mother has been used as a neologism used to describe a tough, disciplinarian mother due to the way Amy Chua describes bringing up her children in the strict, traditional Chinese way in her book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother." And no, I don't know what neologism means and I didn't look it up yet. :-}
"A helicopter mom or parent - (also called a cosseting parent or simply a cosseter) is a parent who pays extremely close attention to a child's or children's experiences and problems, particularly at educational institutions. Helicopter parents are so named because, like helicopters, they hover overhead." There should be a picture of my sister here.
"Latte-macchiato mothers - She's in urban environments or in their little paradise in the country at home. Latte macchiato mothers are typical LOHAS: women who cherish the new green "Lifestyle of Health and Sustainability" with her family. Health awareness, sustainability thinking, environmental orientation, quality of life, all that is a fundamental part of her life and consumption style. They combine their own wellness needs with the responsibility for their children and society, as well as ethical consumption. . Trend conscious they live outside of ideological dogmas and are part of the social center. What distinguishes them is a pluralism of values: self-realization and family, healthy eating and enjoyment, enjoy life and financial security, living close to nature and urban atmosphere, mobility and clean eco-balance. Food she buys prefer the organic supermarket or at the farmer's market. Similarly, but she enjoys it too, to go along with friends and the children to the cafe or restaurant to eat. They are always active and mobile: Whether in the exhibition, the mini-break on the farm or with friends in one of the capitals of the world, family life is, at home not to go stale." It doesn't seem like I shortened that one, but I did really. ;-}
Kim wrote: "When the Toodle family entered the novel my first thought was, didn't we just have an "oodle" character? "Yep. Dickens created oodles of oodles.
Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "We have some evidence of Dombey evincing emotions but checking himself and nipping them in the bud with a view to propriety. However, the instances n..."Yes, you might. "Engherzig" also carries the idea of egoism and a lack of anything amounting to generosity.
Kim wrote: "Also, if you could perhaps refer to mothers instead of one mother you may be able to add a few more letters to it. ;-}"No, there are no additional letters this time, since the plural of Mutter is Mütter. It's an irregular plural.
Kate wrote: "Hello allWell I have to admit that whilst reading the death scene, particularly with Florence clinging to her mother, there was a tear rolling down my cheek. All I could think of was the despera..."
I agree with you, Kate: This is one of the most moving death scenes in Dickens, whose death scenes - if they are meant to be sentimental - are quite often involuntarily funny.
Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "Peter wrote: "Tristram wrote: "We have some evidence of Dombey evincing emotions but checking himself and nipping them in the bud with a view to propriety. However, t..."Thanks. I'll work the word into a future post.
Tristram wrote: "Kim wrote: "Also, if you could perhaps refer to mothers instead of one mother you may be able to add a few more letters to it. ;-}"No, there are no additional letters this time, since the plural ..."
Now I have to go figure out what an irregular plural is and how you get those two dots above the u both - two things I must now do all from one short post.
Tristram , I know this is not quite on point, but would you mind telling me what the German word is that you translated as narrow-hearted? I like that idea.When I read this a few months back, I remember the overwhelming emotion I felt at Dombey's indifference to his daughter and dying wife. Gut wrenching!
Hello all! I'm enjoying the discussion immensely, but don't have anything to add at this point, although I do have a question. In chapter 4, Dickens mentions Gog and Magog. My Penguin edition has an endnote for this,explaining that statues of the biblical giants stood in the Guildhall, having been placed there in 1708. Maybe I missed something, but why would these statues have been in the Guildhall? I recognize Gog and Magog from the Bible, but am puzzled by their mention in the story.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gog_an...They are the protectors of London.
This is from Wikipedia
The Lord Mayor's account of Gog and Magog says that the Roman Emperor Diocletian had thirty-three wicked daughters. He found thirty-three husbands for them to curb their wicked ways; they chafed at this, and under the leadership of the eldest sister, Alba, they murdered their husbands. For this crime they were set adrift at sea; they washed ashore on a windswept island, which they named "Albion"—after Alba. Here they coupled with demons and gave birth to a race of giants, whose descendants included Gog and Magog.
Hilary wrote: "Tristram , I know this is not quite on point, but would you mind telling me what the German word is that you translated as narrow-hearted? I like that idea.When I read this a few months back, I ..."
The German word would be "engherzig", which is basically a word-by-word translation.
I never figured Gog and Magog as two giants, but if my old Bible instruction does not fail me they are supposed to be two peoples / nations that will be set free by Satan during the Apocalypse and then fight on Satan's side.
Sorry, Tristram, I hadn't realised that you had answered the same question days ago. Thanks for your graciousness in bothering to answer again. Perhaps it would be uncharitable of me to suggest that Mr Scrooge is a little engherzig.I had also only heard of Gog and Magog as portrayed in the Bible. Interesting.
Thank you, Lene! I had never heard that particular story before. I had never thought of Gog and Magog as protectors.
Kim wrote: "Tristram wrote: "The German word would be "engherzig", which is basically a word-by-word translation."I would hope it is a word-by-word translation. What else would it be, a picture-by-word tran..."
Are you already practising for Halloween? Or are you ... finally, finally ... becoming sort of grumpy? ;-)
Hilary wrote: "Sorry, Tristram, I hadn't realised that you had answered the same question days ago. Thanks for your graciousness in bothering to answer again. Perhaps it would be uncharitable of me to suggest t..."Oh never mind, Hilary! I also happen to lose myself in the threads, not remembering exactly if something has already been said or not. Coming to think of it, reading Internet texts with all these links and simultaneity is quite a challenge :-)
Tristram wrote: "Are you already practising for Halloween?"At Halloween all the children that come to our house trick-or-treating are fascinated by all the Christmas decorations being unpacked in the house. :-} I'm never grumpy by the way.
Thanks again, Tristram :-)
Kim wrote: "I'm never grumpy by the way. "BWAHAHAHAHA!!
Thanks for the great belly-laugh. I needed that.
I'm coming in very late on this. I thought of waiting for the next book, but I couldn't resist this. Dombey and Son was one of my least favorite of the major novels, and as I begin the reread, after almost four decades, I can't see why I thought that. The opening of Chapter 1 is virtuoso writing. Personally, I felt a letdown at the beginning of the fourth chapter, but that was because I had become so involved with the Dombey family that I resented a distraction from them. The moment that I heard that Walter was working for Dombey and Son, my attention focused again. (I've forgotten most of the plot.) I really like knowing where the serial installments ended.
I'm joining this conversation 2 years after the fact but, again, need to show appreciation to this group! It is such a joy to have this forum as I read Dickens' novels - to glean insights from all of you that I didn't catch on my own (e.g. the preponderance of clocks and time - I'll be keeping an eye out for that now, as I continue reading), to reap the benefits of Kim's research, and to have my own high opinion of Dickens bolstered by the wonderful examples of his excellence that all of you point out. If "Dombey" finishes as well as it starts, it will surely be among my favorite Dickens novels.
Mary Lou wrote: "I'm joining this conversation 2 years after the fact but, again, need to show appreciation to this group! It is such a joy to have this forum as I read Dickens' novels - to glean insights from all ..."Hi Mary Lou
I'm glad you are enjoying D&S. It has always been one of my favourites. Of course there is Great Expectations and Bleak House, but I have always had a soft spot for D&S. If you don't mind I'll keep an eye out for your comments and insights and pop in once and a while for a comment.
Among Dickens's major female characters Florence has always had a special place in my memory.
Enjoy the novel.
Dombey and Son was the first book I read with this group. I periodically look back on it and think that I need to up the rating that I first gave it. Good memories here in these threads!
Linda wrote: "Dombey and Son was the first book I read with this group. I periodically look back on it and think that I need to up the rating that I first gave it. Good memories here in these threads!"Good memories, and splendid company!
Linda wrote: "Dombey and Son was the first book I read with this group. I periodically look back on it and think that I need to up the rating that I first gave it. Good memories here in these threads!"I second that!
Totally, Linda, Tristram and Peter. :)
"'So here's to Dombey - and Son - and Daughter!'"