Excuse my reticence...

[Tim]

*points up and nods* I couldn't (and wouldn't) have said it better myself. Except for adding that that the the thread slowly spiralled into something dirty. Not, 'oh you walked some muck into the house' dirty, but, 'grinding dogshit into someone's bed' kind of dirty. A certain comment about French people/nation, which then went unmentioned by everyone else... is... well.. what can i say, its disgusting.

[[deleted user]]

I'll be honest with you King, I put true, but silly biases on that thread for the most part, (though I was legitimately asking about the French, and I don't think I got a real answer out of anyone with the exception of possibly Charissa and that was some anger...if I offended somehow Seek, I'm sorry) but I get what you are saying. I am rarely serious on here, well, completely serious anyway. There have been a couple of political discussions I have regretted and then the whole "is there a God, do we have souls" blah blah blah. But, I have neglected to post anything with regard to 9/11 for the same reason...this just doesn't seem the place.

But, here's the thing about what you posted on The Haters Club...it was real. You may regret it, and it may have caused some people to form opinions - but fuck em! It was real and that is cool. If you were always clever and funny and smart, but never real...I would like you less and have less respect flowin your way.

The problem with the bias thread was it turned into the "what I don't like" thread.

[[deleted user]]

well i'm much too flip
and am def one of those who reveal too much
however, i guess i don't see the danger of cyber repercussions of my loose lips

just so you know, i wasn't aware of the comment until you mentioned it and yah

i find it ridiculous however, in the spirit of the the thread i think char felt some protection in saying it

and as one who has been caught getting caught up in the hatin spirit i can't mash her for it and feel uncomfortable talkin about her here but again what the hell

char-your french bias is offensive
especially the giving up the jews comment
if a tank drove over my flower bed and a bunch of helmeted, heavily armed men broke down my door and asked me to give them the location of my youngest child, i might do it
if they asked for the name and location of my neighbor i'd probably be more likely to give them up and if they asked me the names and location of strangers i had the info on
i'd probably give them up

the determining factor wouldn't be ethnicity
the determining factor would be the gun in my face

[Sarah]

Amy, I was thinking of that too as I responded to Charissa's comment. It's our own little "Haters club" isn't it?

[Tim]

Amy, thank you but you cant offend me, we can only choose to allow ourselves to be offended or not. I am not offended. I said i was disgusted, with the attitude, both of that which spewed forth this vituperation:


"Cheese Eating, Mouth Breathing, Pantaloon Wearing Surrender Monkeys.

We've saved their asses more times than we can count and they have the cheek to talk shit about us. They are arrogant, and snotty, and irrational little sex perverts.

Okay, I don't care so much about the sex pervert part.

But the surrender specialists REALLY irritate me. Also, they are insanely anti-semitic. Gave the Jews up gladly to the Nazis. Probably thanked them for the favor. Little shits."

and with the attitude of letting it slide, unchecked.
That isn't bias, its essentially racial hate and the acceptance of such. An insight into someone's and a groups character. A pity.

[[deleted user]]

we get in the hater mentality and it sticks
i still post in the haters club
but much less
negativity just feeds on itself and it's hard to get out of that mindset
you folks made the effort with axis
but the mindset prevails
ok
i'll make an effort
stay away from the haters club and be less biting everywhere else

[[deleted user]]

Agreed Maureen...I think that often in an effort to be "funny" I am bitchy rather than amusing. Time to make a concerted effort to be more humorous, less bitch.

Seek, so because no one called Charissa out for her comments about the French we are all guilty by association, is that what you are saying? Well, maybe so, maybe so. I did ask the question, and from Charissa you get nothing if not an honest answer. And, I am afraid that having been married to an Englishman I am far too desensitized to such comments regarding the French. That diatribe could have come out of his mouth it was so similar to his past comments. That doesn't make it right, but it is partially why I did not bother to respond.

And lastly, I think that part of the misconception with bias against the French is that I don't think that anyone believes that the French as a whole, as in each individual French person are guilty of whatever the derogatory comment might be. No more than the rest of the world believing that every single American is fat and loud and rude. When I first moved to England for example, it was the running joke whenever they saw a fat person to point and say "must be American". Now, they knew thin Americans, and quite liked some of us...but when they referred to us as a group they tended to generalize in an unflattering way. We are also apparently guilty of not recycling and being the most wasteful people ever born. That may be true of some, even many, but certainly not all. Am I articulating this at all?

[shellyindallas]

yeah, well said Amy.

I haven't read all of the other thread, but I realized that a)"bias" was used more like "dislike" and b) a lot of my "biases" (either for or against) would offend a lot of people. And, as King suggested (sort of), the "really real/keepin' it real" me is available only to close friends and family who know me enough to know better.

It's funny, when I joined this website and found the haters group I was so excited and thought it was so much fun--but held back soooo much hate. My good friend was like "why don't you just say that" and I was like "b/c if I say that some of my "friends" might drop me"

Also, about the French thing. I like the French. My Aunt married a frenchman 30 years ago and I have two great half frenchie cousins. My Aunt and Uncle split up their time equally between France and TX and when I tell people I have an Aunt who lives in France they say "cool, can we go visit"--so even though in casual conversation they might like to hate on the French b/c it seems like the cool thing to do, deep down they all wanna go to Paris just as much as the next guy.

[[deleted user]]

"Cheese Eating, Mouth Breathing, Pantaloon Wearing Surrender Monkeys.

We've saved their asses more times than we can count and they have the cheek to talk shit about us. They are arrogant, and snotty, and irrational little sex perverts.

Okay, I don't care so much about the sex pervert part.

But the surrender specialists REALLY irritate me. Also, they are insanely anti-semitic. Gave the Jews up gladly to the Nazis. Probably thanked them for the favor. Little shits."

well i probably will lose char as a friend but this isn't bias
it's hate/real hate
and yah when we don't speak up...we're guilty too

[Meghan]

Then shouldn't all of you who have expressed yourselves here, say something as well on the thread where the topic actually took place?

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

Hm... well I guess I have been called out for racism. All I can say is... anyone who knows me knows not to take comments like that from me with any amount of seriousness. But none of you really know me, so, why would I expect you to know that.

I don't actually hate the French. I enjoyed my time in Paris very much, including my encounters with the Parisiennes. There is much about the French culture that I love... the language, the food, their whimsical nature, that they play the accordian on street corners, their sense of style, their love of art... a great many things. If my off handed, off color humor offended people, I deeply apologize.

But historically the French have been deeply antisemitic, as have much of Europe. I have had Jewish friends travel to places there and be spit on, literally. The French penchant for superiority irritates me. Mostly it's what's left of the French aristocracy. A bias is a bias... I carry them the same as everyone... but it's not hate, by any stretch of the imagination. My ire is generally directed at the Nation and the Culture, not the people on an individual basis.

However, my rant was truly tongue in cheek. The difficulties of communication via text is that there is never any nuance involved, no face expressions, and ya'll don't know me from Adam.

I'm sorry if I have disappointed or upset anyone. My apologies to the French. I actually have some French blood mixed in with my Heinz 57 Northern European pedigree. Also some German. We are all the oppressors and the oppressed. The devil and the deep blue sea.

Perhaps I dance with shadow a little too readily. But I don't actually hate anyone.

[[deleted user]]

Mmmmm hot baguette...(dribbles a bit on her keyboard)

[Kristjan]

Charissa said: Hm... well I guess I have been called out for racism. All I can say is... anyone who knows me knows not to take comments like that from me with any amount of seriousness. But none of you really know me, so, why would I expect you to know that.

Technically speaking ... it would be nationalism I think :)

Now for something completely different ...

We can’t really control how a bias is formed unless we limit our experiences. Some are so dark that we prefer not to even talk about them (and we each have a different threshold of comfort in dealing with such discussions), but they all have a legitimate basis in something that happened to us at some point in our life. So long as we know about these biases, we can compensate (or for me, over compensate) for them. Somewhere along the way to PCdom, we lost the ability to actually explore our stereotypes in public discourse, and I think that hurts us over all by making it harder to compare notes to see where we are being irrational or biased. Unfortunately we can only see the talking here ... not the actions that truly define our character.

Okay ... I’m going to pick on the French just a little more. I have a negative bias of the French as well. Why? Because they turned away from being our allies in a war I NEVER wanted. Completely irrational, but I still feel betrayed. I was secretly amused when some Americans renamed French fries. I bet many some French feel the same way about us. I still hope that we can be friends and allies when it really matters most.

[Seizure Romero]

Mmmm, Freedom Toast.

[Sarah]

Mmmm, with a side of Freedom Fries.

Although, fries are actualy Belgian, not French.

[Kristjan]

Sarah said: Mmmm, with a side of Freedom Fries. Although, fries are actualy Belgian, not French.

Really? So what do the French have against Belgians ... or are they just jealous about the waffles :)

[[deleted user]]

mmmm crimes against humanity/war crimes tribunal

wonder if the french will attend as spectators when we are brought before the hague for initiating a preemptive assault on a sovereign nation?

oh wait, the un is full of american appeasers
we won't ever be held accountable for our misdeeds

[Sarah]

Actually, if I'm remembering that Unwrapped episode correctly, in France they recognize that pommes frites are Belgian. It's the Americans who've dubbed them "French fries." Maybe it's because they speak French in Belgium and so once upon a time some ignorant American made an assumption. Most other European nations call them "chips."

According to Wikipedia, Americans called anything that was julienned and deep fried "french fried." That was the method of cooking. So it started out as "french fried potatoes."

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

... and in Vietnam... and in North Africa... and in... oh sorry.

Ahem.

Sorry... I LIKE making fun of the French!

[Kristjan]

Charissa said: ... and in Vietnam... and in North Africa... and in... oh sorry.

Well at least they had an exit strategy ...

I'm not sure Vietnam should count ... we didn't win there either ... and we only get a 1/2 point for Korea and we are currently behind in Afghanistan and Iraq. Must not be as easy as it looks :)

Oh ... and Napoleon was Kick A$$ ... look how many nations had to line up against him to overcome the handicap :)

[Kristjan]

Donald said: Wellington had Napoleon's number from day one. And Nappy was Corsican which is Italian if anything.

That's just trash talk now ... face it ... if Napoleon hadn't invaded Russia, we'd all be speaking French :)

Sure ... he was born in Corsica ... he was trained in France and was using French troops really well.

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

The French's exit strategy in Vietnam was to call America and cry like little girls. The main reason we went into Vietnam to begin with was because we were French allies and they begged us to help them out of the quagmire they had dug themselves into.

And no, we didn't do very well there either... it was a losing battle to begin with. Really the only good choice in Vietnam would have been with Truman, who should have given military, political, and other support to Ho Chi Mihn whose first choice was to go with Democracy. The only reason he went with the Soviets and Communism was because we turned him away... and we turned him away because they were a French colony and we were afraid to demoralize the French any further after their complete trouncing by the Germans... but really, if we were any good as a nation at consistency we would have told the French to get their colonial asses out of South East Asia and told Ho Chi Mihn that an Independant Democratic Vietnam was in everyone's best interest.

If you want to criticize American policy I'm not going to stop you. As long as it's fair and accurate. There is not a nation on this planet that has it's hands clean... or it's face... or it's arse. And Donald is correct, the French didn't support our going into Iraq mostly because that's where they were getting most of their oil, regardless of the embargo. Which is why the embargo wasn't working (of course so were the Russians, the Chinese and Germany).

Oh what a tangled web we weave...

[Howard]

I wonder if it's even worth trying to make a distinction between moral and pragmatic motivations in politics. It's possible that Bush and Co. genuinely believe the things they say. That doesn't make it any better.

[Seizure Romero]

I'm going to keep this entirely superficial (ok, mostly superficial because I'm dead serious about Ms. Marceau): while it is something of a sport to make fun of the French, I will always be grateful for pinot noir, Beaujolais, and Sophie Marceau.

Also, if you like your history laced with booze (or vice versa-- and who doesn't?) I enjoyed Wine and War: The French, the Nazis, and the Battle for France's Greatest Treasure quite a bit. French vintners were quite active in the Resistance and did not necessarily march in (goose)step with the political leadership of the time.

[[deleted user]]

and yet the bombs bursting in air
aren't bursting on my house
so it's easy to talk shit
with my laptop on my lap

ground zero?

we haven't a clue

the french know what the word occupation means and calling them names and renaming starch is egocentric bullshit

[Kristjan]

Charissa said: The French's exit strategy in Vietnam was to call America and cry like little girls.

Well ... I didn't say it was a good exit strategy ... just that they had one.

And I wasn't criticizing American policy per se, just our military strategy ... or lack there of in this case ;)

Donald said: Well, I like Wellington but I was talking trash. But you got to admit Napoleon was `sui generis' and not really French in character whereas Wellington was a poster boy for English virtues.

True ...

I want to go see the Palace of Versailles ... [edit] that is really all I wish to do there.

[Tim]

I was reading an interesting comment/review by someone of the book Suite Française, in the context of France being under Nazi occupation. Ill drop the link to the full thread if ye care to read as some very interesting points are made about our (those of us who havent lived under occupation) ignorance of living under occupation.

While i may think or talk the talk of being a warrior for whats true and right, i have to ask myself if that would be case...no matter what - I honestly don't know.
I will never forget the film i saw of Jews being told to pick out of their companions who should be next exterminated. *sigh* If they didnt pick 5 say, then 20 would be killed. Faced with that sort of "choice", what can one really do?

Most interesting to me was the idea that it was the revolutionaries and resistance that were most feared by many French, due to the consequences of their actions upon others.

Ill just paste a few quotes here (Britain could be also switched for the US)

"Many British people who read narratives of that period find it hard to avoid complacency. The French quit, Britain fought on.

Suite Française has prompted renewed debate about societies' conduct under occupation. Hearing a recent conversation about collaboration, I made myself unpopular by suggesting that, if Britain had succumbed to Nazi rule, our own people would have behaved pretty much as the French did. Anthony Eden is seldom quoted with respect these days. Yet the former foreign secretary made an impressive contribution to Marcel Ophüls' great film on wartime France, Le Chagrin et la Pitié. He said, in impeccable French: "It would be impertinent for any country that has never suffered occupation to pass judgment on one that did." Here was wisdom."

He goes on to talk about how it may be one thing to resist at the risk only of ones own life, but to risk others lives... and the fact that money is needed to buy food..meant not risking livelihood being taken away - hence cooperation.

"In the 1930s many prominent British aristocrats, like their French counterparts, developed a morbid terror of the left. This caused them to be less frightened of the Nazis, who did not threaten their material interests, than of communist revolutionaries, who did. It is a bleak truth, highlighted by French experience, that the greater one's possessions, the more painful it is to risk their loss. The French aristocracy collaborated almost wholesale.

Their British counterparts would probably have done likewise. Great proprietors believe their highest duty is to transfer inheritances safely to the next generation. Many British grandees fought bravely in the second world war but would, I think, have bowed to the Germans under occupation rather than forfeit the likes of Chatsworth or Blenheim. "We hate the Germans," they would have said, "but we must face the fact that they are masters now."

A harder question to answer is whether British people would have dispatched their own Jews to death, as did the French. There was considerable anti-semitism in prewar Britain; it is sometimes remarked that "the biggest favour Hitler did the British upper classes was to make anti-semitism cease to be respectable".

Most British agents captured during the occupation were betrayed by Frenchmen. Would the British have likewise turned on each other?

Humility of the kind displayed by Eden is the only sensible course in judging another nation's behaviour under circumstances that we have been spared. Némirovsky's great novel paints a portrait of a society that did not conduct itself with conspicuous courage or honour. I am doubtful, however, that we would have done much better."

Link to full post and thread is here

It would be interesting to find out if more Jews were given up by French citizens or by French police... if the former.. that could be almost unforgiveable. If it was mostly the police.. well.. police are generally pawns of government and there are few governments who stand out as being defenders of liberty and champions of the people and more often than not are more likely to flirt with fascism, even if they fool themselves. Sadly.

[Howard]

That was interesting. It all starts looking pretty gray.

I was recently thinking about the Stanley Milgram experiments (people were instructed to administer shocks, while the "subject" pretended to be in ever-greater pain; they all did it, because somebody in authority told them to), and how I would be the lone holdout, and it occurred to me that everybody probably thinks that. I took a non-scientific online survey, and yes, 100% of the people I asked insisted they would never do it. There is apparently a real discrepancy between what we believe about ourselves and what we actually do.

[[deleted user]]

i wish i were your sister seek

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

Anti-Semitism has been the rule rather than the exception throughout Europe for the past 2000 years plus (since the Diaspora). Some areas are worse than others, but there is hardly a nation without stain in that regard. Norway is the country that refused to give up it's Jews under occupation. Instead everyone put on the Star of David arm bands and said they were Jewish. Everyone.

France and Germany both have long histories of rounding up the Jews any time there was something going wrong and putting hundreds or thousands of them to death. During the Black Death of the Middle Ages thousands of Jews were exterminated in France because people decided it was the Jew's fault there was a plague... they figured the Jews had poisoned the wells. My French aristocratic ex-mother-in-law threatened to disown her daughter when she married a Jewish man. If it hadn't been for my ex-father-in-law she would have. He stood his ground on accepting her choice and argued that he was a good man.

There is plenty of anti-Semitism in Britain, especially in the upper classes, but it's not as rampant there as it is in France and Germany, who are some of the worst offenders. Before the Nazi Occupation the French had already confined the Jews to one specific area of the city. Read the history. It's all documented.

We should also remember that the French were occupiers for centuries longer than they were occupied. The French, like most European nations, marched their booted heels into countries all over the globe, placing them under colonial rule. True, they didn't behave as badly as the Belgians did in the Congo, almost nobody was that cold blooded and ruthless. But I think it's important not to lose perspectives of the complete history of a place.

Not discounting any of your post Seek, just adding food for thought.

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

::::sticks a bunch of pink plastic flamingoes on King's lawn with a ceramic gnome and a Giant blow up SpongeBob... then runs away::::::

[[deleted user]]

my prejudice is justified by your ancestors prejudice?

sorry king

[[deleted user]]

Char, I have some eggs and TP, lets go back in an hour or so! :)

[Charissa, That's Ms. Obnoxious Twat to You.]

Amy... w00t! I'm there chiqua.