Mrs. Jernigan's AP Class discussion
Lake Introduction
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Maria
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Sep 09, 2014 08:18AM
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John and Kathy are physical escapists: after losing an election by a landslide, instead of facing the press and their consquences, they run away to a remote cabin in the middle of nowhere. John and Kathy are also mental escapists: the only words they ever speak to each other are words of hope and encouragement. That is not to say that sometimes concealing your true emotions is terrible, because it is often helpful in situations, but to constantly be hiding from each other is a tragic flaw in their relationship. They are married, they should be free to express any and every emotion that they feel strongly about and desire their partner to know about.There is constant foreshadowing, detailing how many hours are left until Kathy disappears, even a full portfolio from the police, containing interviews and evidence and pictures. The reader is still kept very in the dark about the whole thing, but is slowly lead to believe that maybe John had something to do with his wife's disappearance. At the start of the novel, O'Brien lets the reader feel neutral, maybe sympathy, for John. But in chapter three, the book takes a turn. Now, suddenly John's past is coming to light, and how much he desires to kill. A strange phenomenon in someone with so much built-up angst and an escapist lifestyle.
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One of the first things I noticed when I started to read was that there was an obvious feeling of discontent or hidden fear in the midst of John and Kathy spending a little vacation time in the middle of nowhere. The foreshadowing seemed heavy to me, but I couldn't really put my finger on what was wrong until the second chapter reflected notes on a crime scene. That rocked me a bit (aren't plot twists supposed to be in the middle of the story? Was that a plot twist?), and after reading it several times I thought that maybe I'm being purposefully led to dislike John because of whatever happened. But that's the funny part. I don't really know what happened because I'm only to the second chapter and all I have are the witness statements. I liked how the third chapter gave me a glimpse of John's mind in how he dealt with his father's death, but I feel like it still paints John in a bad light when I don't know who he really is or what really happened. For all I know Kathy is a shady character. This will be a fun book to explore!
So far, what has jumped out at me the most is the narrative structure that O'Brien uses. I have always enjoyed odd structuring in a novel, and it seems that In The Lake Of The Woods is going to be that way. There are three different chapters that we have read so far, and each have been written differently about different subjects. It's all jumbled together, and I assume that later in the book, we will be given the cypher to put all of the pieces together. There is an incredible sense of suspense already, with odd references towards John Wade's character and background, already giving the impression that there is something wrong, something off about him. His need to kill after his father dies, his complete disconnect and need to lie with his wife after he loses the election, it all points to something being very wrong with this man. In the interviews from chapter 2, there are some very odd statements about John Wade, with some people backing up the fact that there is something a little off, and then like his mother, who says "John wouldn't hurt a fly!". I don't know what is going to happen in this story, but already it is very foreboding, and John seems like a somewhat dangerous man.
It was different than what I initally expected, I was thinking I would be thrown into the midst of a war scene with dead bodies piling up and the blood running free, but instead it was like the beginning of a young love novel. The tone was so vastly different from what I was expecting, it was hard to notice the underlying shift from the happy imagery to their unhappiness. The second chapter threw me off a little bit because of the format and the sudden mention of missing persons. Then the unfinished comments caused my curiosity to rise because it hints largely that there is more to the story than the failed election. The third chapter is an even bigger shift than the second. Losing his father and being helpless and hardly coping are all giant indicators of how deep this story will go. The inconsistency/incoherity of these first three chapters all make the point of how twisted and conjoined past experiences are with present and future experiences.
O'Brien opens the story with intense and contrasting imagery. The imagery alone of the dark places with splashes of color really drew me in. The story takes place in an extremely desolate place full of darkness and cold images; however, to John and Kathy this seemingly horrible place is everything they could want. The description "infinitely blue and beautiful" contrasts what the setting describes. John and Kathy are runners. They are trying to run from the past, from struggles, from the future. The idea of love and happiness drives everything they do. They want to live togeher and have a family, yet something blocks their dreams. This to me kind of foreshadowed a broken love story of sadness and despair. Even though they openly talk about Kathy's soon departure I think O'Brien is hinting towards something different. The descriptions and suttle comments allude to a greater change. Another odd thing to me was the fact that John is also referred to as secretive, yet Kathy is the one who goes missing.The set up of John's recent loss in politics and hearing of his "sizzling blood" contrasts with his deep love for Kathy earlier written. Also, the structure of O'Brien's writing was very interesting. Even the titles and lengths of the chapters in a way seem as though it is almost one certain point in time, like a shattered image of something.
I'm really unsure of it all, honestly. The completion of my reading left me sitting there for a moment, and even throughout my reading I questioned what exactly what going on and how these events, memories, and commenents played into each other. Besides just trying to figure out what the storyline was building and relating to, I noticed just minor things that peaked my interest and brought about various questions. First of all, within the beginning page of the story, the author already mentions their location being "at the edge of Lake of the Woods," which connects into the title and brings me to believe that this memory, the innocent setting of two lovers sharing an intimate escape in the wilderness, will come into play as a major role throughout the book. There were so many times where the water was given a personality, of gloom or serenity, or the fog came rolling in and dropped and parted that I almost believe that the enviroment will become some sort of role within the text -- whether just to foreshadow or evoke an emotion, the surrounding setting - especially that of Lake of the Woods - will come to be a major character. The next thing I annoted for quite a bit was the constant mention of their desperate desire to be happy within each other, to enjoy their time and explore the world in their late thirties. To me it was just odd, how often and almost obsessed the text was with mentioning their need to be together. I couldn't tell how they truly felt; I oftent felt that she was more occupied with the thought and idea of him than he was with her, mainly because I felt an odd presence from John Wade. There are already signs that he's unstable, even with just the slight mention of his tension and strong desire to kill. The second chapter was just odd, I just wanted to know what was going on and what happened! The first chapter builds this romance and the reader wants to fight for the couple, for them to travel and explore Verona and just be HAPPY, but the second chapter challenges all that. And the third chapeter, oh goodness, I don't even know. The first two play into something bigger, a larger event that occured and the innocence of love was removed. But the third explains John Wade's past, it discuss and presents the idea of his nature and the desire to kill. He wanted to kill it all, those who felt and refused to felt, and he wanted to kill the one who was already resting silently beneath the ground -- he had no control over it, no limitations; his hands lusted for the lack of life. But, upon death, Wade often wanted the dead back. He dreamt of his father and desired to feel his touch again, dreaming about him and inventing conversations within his head with the deceased and almost fooling himself with his presence. However, he later mentions that he can't always fully fool himself, because deep down he knew they weren't true. But he would always begin again, and it makes me wonder if this idea of his wife is a fabricated memory, too, that if he was the one who removed her from life but craves to bring her back.
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Baillie points out an interesting point in the narrative design: What does O'Brien want us to feel about John Wade? How do you know?
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Jennie raises the question about the shifting narrative format and content. What could O'Brien be playing with here? What is he communicating to us?
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Brian - You unearth some of the more contradicting pieces of the story. What commentary is O'Brien making about perspective? Why the different views? WHy relevant?
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Nice work, Rosie, with the underlying threads of how the past affects the present. What do you think O'Brien is saying about it? What battlefield does the opening scene expose? How is this different from your expectations? Why is it important?
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Jaela uncovers the subtle contradictions and rifts present in the narrative. How does the setting mirror this set of contrasts? Why is this relevant?
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Anne Merrill speaks about the personification of nature in the opening chapter. How does O'Brien use the setting as a symbol to foreshadow other inanimate elements or emotions that are given life and persona? Why does he do this? Find the pattern here.
I appreciate the setting introduced in chapter one. The usage of "old yellow" in the first line of the book shows how once happy memories fade, and how those memories can manifest into an inherent desire for what we don't know and potentially cannot have. "In the darkness it did not matter that these things were expensive and impossible."
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Interesting point, Matt. What do you think happens when the memories don't fade? How will this question thread throughout the story?
When I first started reading I expected bloody war imagery and tangled bodies lying dead after battle, however that is not what was there at all. Throughout reading I observed how unappy John and Kathy Wade were with their life, but also how desperate they were to be happy. My favorite quote, "They wanted happiness without knowing what it was, or where to look, which made them want it all the more", really stood out to me. I feel like everyone can relate to this, or at least I know I can. The difference between myself and the two characters is that they live in a dream world where they imagine things they cannot have and things that cannot be. They escape their physical world (after losing the election) by retreating to the cabin, and they also escape the mental world by only speaking happy words. They are searching for happiness through imagination and "wishing games". I was a little confused when the author switched back and forth between past and present, but I did gather that Kathy went missing and some people believe John killed his wife while others believe he did not.
It's definitely one of the more intersting introductions I've ever read-a war book that begins with a failed politician? A missing wife? Controversey over how she went missing? In the first chapter it seems like Kathy and John are at least content and somewhat in love, if a little disconnected at times on what they want out of their relationship and what they're willing to give. Both of them fade in and out on clinging to an idea with the realization at some point that it is just a dream. The trapdoor appears multiple times, including (I think?) a cameo in the third chapter at the very end when John "finds" his father again and he feels the hinge swing open-brilliant. There was also the instance where John's mataphorical landslipe failure in the polls seemed to come to life in front of his eyes, feeling the white wall of earth move toward him. I loved the second chapter-disjointed snippets of magzine articles and incident reports giving the reader conflicting points of view on whether or not John is the type of person to murder his wife. It's almost like O'Brien is pushing the reader to make a judgement on John without getting any characterization for him aside from what they gather from a few cippings. (Also, the flies in Richard's statement? A not-so-subtle refrence to Vietnam's swampy climate, no? Either way I loved it)
The fog that hung over the lake in the first chapter was interesting. It seemed to symbolize the cloudiness they had in their marriage. He was feeling so many different things but he never talked to her about them. The fog outside also represents the fog of thoughts in his head. It says he was always secretive and that even Kathy never really knew what was happening with him. The lake of the woods seems to be a shelter from the outside world but Kathy disappears shortly after she leaves it. Will it taint John's perception of the lake of the woods? Or did he have something to do with it? He seems foreshadow something ominious when he alludes to his inner craziness of desiring a killing rampage. I want ot know about the flies too, what's the significance?
This books seems so interesting to me already. The characters seem so dark and secretive. There seems to be something so broken about John and Kathy yet they are both trying so hard not to reveal to the other one just how broken the other one is. The idea that they are suffering together, yet trying to spare eachother the other one's feelings is so personal for me. I feel like so many people do this in many relationsips and friendships just to save the other person a little hurt and time. I also feel like O'Brien is hiding something from us. He keeps bringing up Kathy's departure, but they way that he brings it about makes me feel as though he's pointing to something bigger. I think Kathy's "depaerture" represents her death possibly? I don't know if that means physically or emotionally. They are already both just shells of humans. The only life they feel is thorugh fantasies and daydreams so why not just go ahead and die or "depart". Their relationship is so extremely complex that it will be intruiging to see how it plays out and i want to know why both John and Kathy stay in such an empty relationship that is piece by piece building up the fake and dissenigrating reality.
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Emma, you discuss the escapist notions John and Kathy depend upon. How do you see that idea playing out in the story?
From what I can gather so far, or how it translates to me, I think that the man in this couple is mentally insane. Or some event has happened that has sent him off mentally and the author slyly hints that he will never be the same again. The wife, Kathy, craves normality and refuses to accept his disorder or the event that caused it. She wants to go away and live a carefree life, but it is obvious that the author is trying to show that will never be possible. I loved O'Brian's distinct and vivid imagery when describing Kathy's wish to move away to Verona. After reading the chapters again, I'm starting to question if Kathy exists at all, or everything that happens around her is something that he is fabricating through his mental disorder. Is it possible that he himself created the trial transripts? I think that his possible mental disorder could have been triggered by his father's death. "what John felt that night, and for many nights afterward, was a desire to kill"... I think this could mean what I was saying before, or possibly explains why he may have ACTUALLY killed Kathy, not in his mind. I dont knowwwwwww theres some weird stuff goin on heree
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Ah...the trapdoor. Nice observation, Carris. Trapdoors and mirrors pose interesting questions to a couple bent on escaping their past disappointments and failures. How will O'Brien use symbols to expose the underbelly of the characters and the novel?
Maria wrote: "Matt wrote: "I appreciate the setting introduced in chapter one. The usage of "old yellow" in the first line of the book shows how once happy memories fade, and how those memories can manifest into...""Things went silent. Just the waves and woods, a delicate in-and-out breathing. The night seemed to wrap itself around them."
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Holly, look again at the fog. What properties does it hold? How does the onslaught of fog correspond to John's inner rage? WHy? What has O'Brien given the fog?
So far what this book has me very confused. The way O'Brian writes is so different from anything i've read even the things they carried was easier to understand.He definitley creates an intense mystery with the first line of the book. With his narration style and the way he creates the crime scene by just using notes has me thinking that with each interview, and with the fact that the narrator is omniscient, it makes me think that throughout this novel we are going to have to piece togeher exactly what happened to his wife. Maybe thats not the point of the book but i think in the long run we are going to kind of have to be the detectives in all of this. With the third chapter we find out that there may be something mentally wrong with john, due to the death of his father. His death being the trigger for violent thoughts and wishes. To me the author is either being obvious in telling us that john probably had something to due with his wifes death, Or the author is trying to disguise the truth by making us believe that John had something to do with it. Then again this is also my opinion coming from what i've read of these first few chapters i could be very wrong.
The foreshadowing in the first chapter is very subtle. There are very quick mentions of the coming tragedy. The time when Kathy would be missing is addressed briefly - "In less than thirty-six hours she would be gone..." - and the author talks about John Wade's swelling anger about losing the election and about everything going wrong in their lives - "He wanted to hurt things. Grab a knife and start slashing and never stop..." This could have easily been looked over or missed by the reader, but the second chapter, which is made up of several quotes of evidence of Kathy's disappearance, is not so easily forgotten. The subtlety of the first chapter is held in stark contrast with the bluntness of the second chapter. The third chapter is very personal, as it explores the emotions and thoughts of John Wade following the event of his father's death. The fact that he wanted to go on a killing rampage is addressed again, which leaves barely a doubt in the reader's mind that he most likely had killed his wife in a blind rage. His fantasies and made-up conversations with his late father also cause the reader to question his mental stability. He had not coped with his father's death in what is accepted as a normal way, so it is probable that he reacted to his loss of the election in a harmful and disastrous way; his wife was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I can already tell that I am going to like this book. I like the disoriented and fragmented way that O'Brien arranges the timeline. It feels like we are actively participating in solving the mystery of Kathy's disappearance with the people in the story, piecing together our own inferences and conclusions along with every character involved. However, we as the readers also have special insight into the mind of John and into the story of his past. I have a feeling that John has played a big part in his wife's disappearance, because many times it talks about his murderous rage and desire to kill. The ominous tone when it talks about Kathy being "gone" also leads me towards that idea. However, I am still trying to figure out his backstory, and why he is the way he is. The way the chapters about the crime scene are written are very interesting- bits and peices relating to a larger crime, much like the bits and pieces of John's life will make him into the character he is in the story. I think O'Brien will reveal a little bit at a time, but it will be up to us to piece it all together and find the meaning within the words.
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Marianna, your observations about characterization are right on the mark. They are hollow; their relationship is empty and yet they dream of better tidings. What does this say about human nature? Why does O'Brien take such pains to show their disconnect in the opening chapters?
So far I found it really interesting. I thought it was going to be an old war drama, but it is instead a mordern mystery. I like how it started. It started after the election, so we don't know all of what happened except that he lost by a landslide. This provides the question as to why he lost by such a signifigant margin. Could it be there was a scandal of some sorts? Maybe a skeleton in the closet? I love how they handled the evidence. On chapter 2, it shows the evidence and some comments from friends and family. Instead of boringly listing some facts about the disappearence, O'Brien, uses a unique way to explain the case. I think the fact that he is Vietnam veteran will somehow be involved into the case. Maybe someone from his past will be behind the disappearence. O'Brien providing the conversation between John and Kathy about having "38 kids" makes it seem like John is victim; not a criminal. Maybe that's point... to throw us off his trail.
Maria wrote: "Carris wrote: "It's definitely one of the more intersting introductions I've ever read-a war book that begins with a failed politician? A missing wife? Controversey over how she went missing? In th..."I'm not sure yet but the thing about the mirrors and trapdoors is so interesting to me. Imagine what you could do with a mirror-have the exact same image, have the same image distorted, have the same image with a different background, have the image staring back at you with contempt or pity or anger or regret. I think the easiest use for a mirror is to confront a character with him or her self which is possibly what O'Brien will do here, perhaps with the culmination of whatever tragedy befell Kathy, either revealing to John his true self or Kathy her true self. And the trapdoor, possibly my new favorite symbol/device. I mean, the whole point of the trapdoor is that you don't see it coming, and once you're theyre you're theyre permanently. Maybe the trapdoor will come in at a turning point, the sudden drop in the pit of John's stomach when he wonders about how he came here, or the realization about what it means to be in a war. That being in a war means giving up some morals and dropping in to a hole no one's been in before.
The start of this book left me hanging. I didn't really know what to with the information after I had read it. The characters are very interesting and don't deal with their problems head on. Instead they disappear and try to imagine a new world without the hurt. However, that doesn't really help them in solving a problem, it prolongs the hurt but does not get rid of it. It jumps from John Wade and Kathleen being in the woods at a cabin to a missing report of Kathleen. I believe she was killed however I do not think John, her husband did it. I do believe he is psycho in one way or another, but I do not believe he killed her. However, I think he had something to do with her disappearance. She could have possibly killed herself since she seemed so unhappy in the first chapter. I believe a lot of their unhappiness comes from the fact that John did not win the election. He seems to be struggling finding a steady source of income and is left with the very little he has. Kathleen cannot fulfill his needs alone and therefore they are depressed. They attempt to make each other happy but it's a fake happy and only lasts for the time. They are not searching for true joy, they search for it in material things which causes them more sadness since they do not have them, nor have the means to acquire these things.The first chapter was very dark and O'Brian set up the scene very well. It caused me to become slightly unhappy alongside the characters in the story. Then it shifts to the future, well something that happens a couple weeks from the first chapter, and goes into a missing report. The third chapter gives somewhat of a background on John which gives some clarity on who he is as a person. It also causes some guesses to be made about what really happened to Kathleen.
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Mary Eveleen - What does O'Brien give us in terms of symbols to show what is going on with John Wade? How will this play out in the general narrative and in John's own?
I see the escapist notions playing out in a few different regards, but the main one being the war. For example, if you can lose yourself in a fantasy, then you're no longer trapped in the horror of, say, Vietnam. People in the past that have endured concentration camps will say the same thing. One way to psychologically endure it all is to escape the terror in your head through imagination. Another way it could play out might have something to do with Kathy's disappearance. If John did have something to do with the disappearance of his wife, he could be using his imagination to escape his wrong doings and even possibly repress the memory of hurting Kathy entirely.
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Shaina - WHat does the narrative structure do for our understanding of this tale? What does it represent? What is O'Brien playing with here?
Maria wrote: "Shaina wrote: "So far what this book has me very confused. The way O'Brian writes is so different from anything i've read even the things they carried was easier to understand.He definitley creates..."to be completley honest, i wish i had a better idea of what he was trying to do. I understand when he is foreshadowing but he also seems to jump backwards and forwards. Maybe thats the plan to just confuse us. If so it worked.
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Nice observations, Anna Kate! You unearth the thematic consistencies of each of the chapters. Notice they appear on different levels: personal, objective, and universal. Why does O'Brien do this? What does it mean for our story?
When I started this book there really wasn't much explained. The author kind of keeps the back story to a minimum. I think this is so the reader can get the overall mood of the the book instead of the assumed mood based on concrete events. He was looking back on a memory and nature had a lot to do with the memory. He described it as a "great curving mirror... dense hypnotic drone of woods and water" which almost makes it seem like the lake has some power over all of them, like it is making them look into themselves. In the second chapter it was evidence notes. They were pretty scattered but they mostly talked about the relationship with the father and his wife and flies (typical symbol for death). It didn't really seem like there was any evidence of anything. In the third chapter, it shifted back to the narrator talking. He admitted his desire to kill. THe book says that "he knew the truth" and I think this means that he knew the truth about himself and that what he was daydreaming about was more real to him than to his physical actions.
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The fragmented structure does prove entertaining. I agree with you Casey. It reads like a puzzle, and we are all trying to collectively solve it. What in life runs the same way - with patterns and puzzles? What could O'Brien be using it to mirror?
The lake is a mirror and you can go in and out of a lake so if a mirror is sometimes a symbol of going in and out of worlds, say, in and out of reality (ahh, the reality between the 38 kids on a bus in verona they want and the truth that they're stuck in a landside in this old yellow house in america), in and our of your own head (John, most likely in and out of his head during war, coming home) then the lake is their transition between worlds. The lake is where they're the closest to switching between. The farther you are from the lake, the farther you are in getting from one reality to another.
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Zayne - Why is there a disconnect between what other people say and what the characters say themselves? What is O'Brien saying through this pattern?
Maria wrote: "Holly wrote: "The fog that hung over the lake in the first chapter was interesting. It seemed to symbolize the cloudiness they had in their marriage. He was feeling so many different things but he ..."The fog almost seems suffocating, he's breathing it and hearing the sound. They said they needed solitude but the fog hangs everywhere. He feels the fog even in the quietest of places. It brings about the echos and voices that they don't reallt recognize. Its the fog of his memory forever keeping him enraged because of war and because the death of his fathe and because of his past.
I thought the second chapter was interesting,the bits and pieces of interviews and newspaper articles. They seem to be scattered shards of something whole. And it's the reader's job to put these things together. It definatly has a crime undertone, but the first chapter and the last chapter mask it with bitersweet stories that are more complete and full than the short bits of conversation in the 2nd chapter. It kind of has a rhythmic effect. The short bits of conversation all comment on a situation that they never really were present for. In contrast, the 1st and 2nd chapters feel more sincere, heavy, and real. I think that if this truly is a trial, it reveals the flawed way the public views a circumstance and how biased we can be- like when Eleanor K. Wade said "They loved each other. John wouldnt hurt a fly." I think John might have edited out his memories of his dad drinking or making fun of him because his dad died. He mightve blamed his dad's death on himself. And I think John killed his wife, as a result of trama from Vietnam.
Maria wrote: "Mary wrote: "From what I can gather so far, or how it translates to me, I think that the man in this couple is mentally insane. Or some event has happened that has sent him off mentally and the aut..."I think the "old yellow cottage by the Lake of the Woods" is an important symbol which could symbolize retreat or escape. Also, John Wade repeatedly focuses on the fog by the dock. We see it covering everything, or dividing into clusters over the dock and boathouse.
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Mary Lauren - your examination of the Wades reiterates the need for confronting our fears and weaknesses and disappointments in order to survive them. What does this pattern tell us about the pair? What will O'Brien use them to symbolize?
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The lake is a powerful symbol and mirror. What could O'Brien be using this to represent or suggest?
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Self-editing dreams.....interesting idea. What does this say about man? What is O'Brien suggesting through it? What did we learn about the mind in Eternal Sunshine?
