Group Reads Discussions 2023: "Amatka" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Gabi]

ETA: as of Januar 01 2023 this thread is the official group discussion for our BotM. So no need for spoiler tags anymore!

Group discussion starts with message 50


After three times luckless in the polls Lesley and I are going for a BR for this Swedish SF novel where language shapes reality.

Come and join us at July 10th.

[Rachel]

I can’t wait to watch other people read this for the first time

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I would really love to join this, but I think it’s too close to another buddy read I have planned. Might try to pick it up later in the month.

[Lesley]

Rachel wrote: "I can’t wait to watch other people read this for the first time"

I am thoroughly intrigued by this statement. I’ve got my copy and will plan to start on the 10th!

[Gabi]

I hope it works on audio. I wanted to get the ebook version yesterday only to find out that it is > €10 for 200 pages, so I have to retreat to audio.

[Lesley]

I hope the audio works for you too! I was able to get it from my small town library, which has a surprisingly well-curated selection of SFF books. Every time I go in to browse, I want to take half the bookshelves home with me.

[Ariana]

I will also try to drop in! Waiting for it from the library, but I think I'm next.

[Gabi]

Great that you join us, Ariana!

I started and am quite intrigued so far (Up to ... 3-day ?? I'm listening to it, so I have no idea how the chapter names are written) (view spoiler)[ The episodes with the tooth paste and with the pencils back in school and the hinting at the lost colony got me hooked. Something important is going on with naming things and I haven't got a clue what (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Ahem … I finished it ^^'. Couldn't put it down. I was completely sucked in and fascinated by it.

Now I'm curious what other readers think about it, cause I'm sure it does not sit well with everybody.

[Anna]

Yes, I'm sad it never made it onto the shelf, I'd have loved to see what people thought! Also I think I might have to reread this tomorrow, there are some details I've forgotten.

[Gabi]

There is still the chance for the follow-up for December, isn't it?

[Anna]

Yes!

[Dawn F]

I’m a little behind because work is draining my energy, but I’ll catch up!

[Anna]

I will not reread this tomorrow, because I reread it today. I still don't know what to say though! I think I might've liked it even more this time?

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "I will not reread this tomorrow, because I reread it today. I still don't know what to say though! I think I might've liked it even more this time?"

I was wondering about the re-readabilty of this book, cause (view spoiler)[ the most exciting part for me was slowly finding out what the marking was about (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

It had been long enough since I read it for the first time, so I'd forgotten some details. It was actually pretty fun to read with knowing the big reveal. I still can't say I understand it! :D

[Ariana]

I started this yesterday, and, like Gabi, was immediately engrossed.
I'm not generally drawn to the "post-apocalyptic" sub-genre, since it often feels too grim for me. This is definitely grim, but it's not distressing for my psyche (at least not yet, I'm about 1/3 through).

[Lesley]

I was similarly sucked in right away and read just over half the book last night. (view spoiler)[I think it’s the combination of the mystery surrounding the “marking” and the mystery of the protagonist’s backstory that kept me turning pages. I also see a lot of similarities to The Dispossessed as well as some elements that echo The Hunger Games (centralized government controlling poorer, outer factions). (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Ok, I finished this last night. (view spoiler)[I really didn't like the ending, I don't think. I don't generally need *everything* spelled out for me in books, but there were just too many unanswered questions... Especially since it was the mystery that was driving the plot, I really wanted something more satisfying.

And I hated what happened to Vanja SO much. Mutilating someone's brain to control them is beyond awful, and then when it means she can't "open herself to the world" (whatever that means) it was so sad. I wanted to punch Nina.
(hide spoiler)]

But overall I liked it. Super engrossing, well written, intriguing ideas.

[Gabi]

Lesley wrote: "I was similarly sucked in right away and read just over half the book last night. [spoilers removed]"

Yes, I was thinking (view spoiler)[ of "The Dispossessed", too. The Hunger Games I don't know. Since I didn't read the summary on GR beforhand (which - I think - gives away far too much) the meaning of the marking was like a small detective puzzle and I enjoyed the slow revealing immensely. (hide spoiler)]

@Ariana: Agreed regarding Nina (view spoiler)[ Her betrayal was such a punch in the gut. I hated her so much for that. There is nothing worse than 'friends' who think they know what is best for you. (hide spoiler)]

Reg the end: (view spoiler)[ My imagination is that this 'substance' is the indigenous lifeform of the planet, forced into 'slavery' for the colonists (why this should work with spoken Earth language … I don't know … here my imagination isn't imaginative enough … :D) The poet and her followers formed a bond with this lifeform, that apparently can invade the bodies as shown by the one man on the street, and create a symbiont being. Somehow the ability to voice words still is important for this, so Vanja is left out of this change. And now they are on to the other colonies to take over the humans there. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

The part with Nina was interesting to reread. (view spoiler)[ She clearly says she will snitch on Vanja, and she does :( (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

I finished this last night and again stayed up way too late, but I couldn’t put it down!

Re: the end (view spoiler)[I love your interpretation, Gabi. I’m in the camp that appreciated how opened ended it was. It reminded me of the end of Lathe of Heaven, where the world is being reborn into something more real. I’m still not sure I completely understand the ending, except that it seemed to be a commentary on breaking out of the status quo and not accepting your current reality when there could be something better if you chose to look beyond the curtain. But there are also those who will do whatever they can to maintain the status quo because it keeps them in power.

I was also upset by what happened to Vanja; it was very hard to read those passages. (hide spoiler)]

Re: Nina (view spoiler)[I was initially onboard with her betrayal because it seemed to be in character, even if it was an awful outcome. It was actually odd to me that she turned around in the end and embraced the new world so fully. (hide spoiler)]

[Ariana]

Gabi wrote: "Reg the end: ..."

Ooh, I like that! (view spoiler)[I hadn't interpreted the substance as a lifeform, exactly, but that's a cool interpretation.

I wish there had been a but more elaboration on how exactly this substance/lifeform is affected by and/or responds to (human) language and thought. If thought is part of the process (like it seems to be earlier on with the pencil/spoon/key), why are the aphasia folks "left behind"?

And what about the machine?
(hide spoiler)]

Re Nina: (view spoiler)[That's a good point to remember, Anna. Yeah, I think betrayal maybe isn't quite the right word, since she's up front about it. It's still an abominable thing to do to someone, regardless of whether you give them advanced warning. It was maybe more galling to me that she was still trying to have a relationship with Vanja afterwards. I get that Nina made her decision based on her values and beliefs, and that it might have been hard for her, but to still try to be involved with Vanja afterwards, to "take care of her" when she was there reason for her condition, was what pissed me off so much. You can't have both.
(hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

re: Nina: (view spoiler)[ yes, it was definitely in character for her. The maintenance of the community was the most important goal for her. And from a point of a rather small population of humans on a hostile world this is clearly understandable. Still I hated her decision on a personal level.
I had the feeling that she didn't transform on her own will. (hide spoiler)]

Re: the end: (view spoiler)[ I, too, read it as breaking out of one's reality - yet with the bittersweet taste of finding out that the clearance kick just leads to another kind of dependence. (hide spoiler)]

Our posts just overlapped, Ariana: reg the end: (view spoiler)[ The thing with the language and why thought process isn't suffice, is something that bothered me as well - and which I still can't imagine away …
With the machine I had the feeling that it was something left over from the first settlers, something not from the world - but that is just a wild guess. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

Oh I totally agree! I just meant that rereading brought a whole new level to that part of the story.

[Bonnie]

Rachel wrote: "I can’t wait to watch other people read this for the first time"
What might happen? Are you expecting good or bad?!

[Bonnie]

I'm on Week 1, Day 4.

First I thought colonies were like the planets in Ursula K. LeGuin's The Dispossessed - (view spoiler)[
Essre = "Western" values and wealthier; Amatka = totalitarian, with central control of production and enforced marking. After Vanja's school/pencil memory and the library visit - that's not it. The whole planet must be impoverished like this? (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

How might this end? Ideas and my prediction at 58% (Week 3, early Fourday/Thursday morning, after Mushroom Farm cave-in)
(view spoiler)[
1. *(most likely) BRAINWIPE. Vanja gets mindwiped, just like Dad. The question is, does she pull down the rest of the household with her, or will they be the ones to turn her in? My money is on the latter!
2. Conformity... Vanja bows to the Inevitable, puts her shoulder to the wheel/nose to the grindstone, like the rest of the citizens in grey overalls.
3. Revolution! Vanja brings about about major societal change. Use that sludge stuff in different ways.
4. Improvement - Vanja's nosing around brings about incremental changes to the colonies, like clearer communication from the Committee, more truthful textbooks for children.
5. The Foundation - Vanja gets invited to join the group that's *really* in charge ( Hari Seldon types ) and learns the truth about the colonies. (hide spoiler)]

[Bonnie]

This is not a pipe!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_T...

[Kaa]

I finally got around to starting this a few days ago, and I'm at 53%. So far this is fascinating. I didn't think of (view spoiler)[The Dispossessed or Hunger Games (hide spoiler)] right off - I recently finished (view spoiler)[ The Last Days of New Paris (hide spoiler)] and thought there were a lot of similarities, in terms of the weirdness and tone. As it turns out, (view spoiler)[there are even more similarities than I realized at first, as both stories are set in worlds where "reality" is being imagined into existence. (hide spoiler)]

[Anna]

New round of buddy readers heading in! :)

[DivaDiane]

Why is this book no longer available in audio or as an ebook?

[DivaDiane]

It's available on audiobooks.com and you can get a free 30-day trial. Still haven't been able to find it as an ebook, though.

[Anna]

This kindle edition is available (for me), but it's super expensive. And this audio edition.

[Anna]

Anyone looking at the book on Goodreads, please note that the default edition is the Swedish edition! If I remember correctly, Scribd has an edition in some Eastern European language, but not English. They're all called Amatka, so you have to look at the details to tell which one you're looking at.

[Stephanie]

I finished this recently and found it compelling and thought-provoking and sad. It's been on my TBR for ages because I love reading about language.

(view spoiler)[
The earlier discussion about Nina I thought was interesting. Her actions didn't come as a surprise to me. And I think while Vanja was always curious and always convinced there could be more, Nina had seen what happened and it frightened her. So if she thought Vanja was going to try and make that reality, it makes sense to me that she would try to stop her.

The parts about them trying to suppress affection between parents and kids I found really, really sad. Especially Vanja's memories of her dad and that together with how she had to renounce him. :(

I found the ending a bit dissatisfying because it was so ambiguous. Vanja made a difference, but what happened to her was horrible. I'm glad I read the book but after I finished it I was ready for something lighter.

(hide spoiler)]

Looking forward to hearing thoughts from others, too :)

[Emmett]

I am planning on joining in for the A8 read on this. Just marking my place here so I remember ;)

[Alex]

Just commenting to remember where this is. I have trouble keeping track of different discussions, lol.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

hiii!! join us!

[Emmett]

I'm about 1/4 in so far and if I had to describe this book as food, it would be something along the lines of 'strange iced mushrooms in a subdued soap sauce'...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

hahaha

[Rachel]

Ha yes!

[Nicol]

I finished, and still confused by (view spoiler)[ the ending, just like others I found it dissatisfying and forgive me if anyone already explained and I missed it, I just don't understand what in the end of it was that took everyone over and what was underground, maybe I missed something? (hide spoiler)] that being said, I really enjoyed it but I do hope Ryan chimes in with his list of things to discuss!

@Emmett I feel like I randomly picked a bunch a books featuring mushrooms lately 😂 and your description 😂😂😂

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Interesting. I mostly read Amatka as an allegory to understanding the power of belief. That for society to function it requires that we, or at least most of us, believe in it. Sparking a conversation about the fear of change, the predominance of conservatism, and the falsehoods we accept en masse as truths.

With that perspective I wasn't particularly bothered by the ambiguous ending (or much else really). The enjoyment I got from it was in once again questioning the sanity of our species manner of existence.

[Bonnie]

Anna wrote: "Anyone looking at the book on Goodreads, please note that the default edition is the Swedish edition! If I remember correctly, Scribd has an edition in some Eastern European language, but not English. They're all called Amatka, so you have to look at the details to tell which one you're looking at."

They both have cool covers though

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I loved, loved the early bit. It was such a smart mesh of old soviet feel with fantastical futurism. It was creepy, obviously reminiscent of a specific time and at the same time clever in its differences.

I super enjoyed the language and poetry element, and found both beauty and humor in its inclusion.

Re the end:

(view spoiler)[ I liked the idea of consumerism, of "freedom of choice" that isn't actually any choice at all. I liked the idea of adapting to our world rather than forcing our world to serve us. But I found the descent unsatisfying. The instalove (ugh, girlfriend!! You are grown! You are NOT in love after 3 weeks sharing dinner and 3 nights sleeping side by side. What sort of example is that for your children?!), Vanja's malcontent, uprooting her whole life, falling apart so quickly for a mystery. I didn't believe it. And while I wanted to accept it for the thought experiment, it was so much weaker than everything else in the book that it left me wanting.

That said, the use of poetry to define a new world, the experiment of creating our own sorrow and reality...I truly loved this.

I don't feel the cover is honest? Yes, the concept of people with uteruses having to sacrifice for a population is touched on, but I didn't think "babymaker" was a term we saw ascribed to women in this book enough to make the connection.

I did have another question...what do you think happens to everyone in this population who cannot use verbal speech? Where are the deaf, those who require sign language and so on? How would they work here? (hide spoiler)]

[Emmett]

I just finished this and I thought it was great, but I do feel like the ending was just... okay.

Re: general suff discussed above- (view spoiler)[ I am still curious about the machine underground. Obviously there's a lot of ambiguity with this story, but I wasn't really able to fit that in with everything else, so to speak.

In terms of the goop and Anna's new breed of human, etc- My thinking is in line with some of the earlier readers that the planet is possibly sentient and can engage in symbiosis/fuse with people to become something else. I do also find it strange that their language from the other world would have an effect on the substance though... (hide spoiler)]

Re: Nina- (view spoiler)[ I felt the decision was in line with everything prior to it. I was a bit disappointed but it fit with her character. I also didn't find it strange that she gave herself over to Anna/the new world as it seems like things were going absolutely shit-bananas-out-of-your-brain-crazy and so joining the new world rather than dying probably was a better decision. (hide spoiler)]

@Allison- (view spoiler)[ I feel like the whole speech thing wasn't entirely fleshed out. People had marking pens to be able to write the names of objects rather than just speaking them. At one point Vanja said she discovered what worked best was a combination of thinking intentionally about the object, writing its name, and speaking it. There were instances of characters speaking a name, but not writing it- so why isn't the reverse possible?

I suppose those incapable of speaking or hearing the new language would just be taken care of by the new society, but without the opportunity to shape it alongside them. (hide spoiler)]

@Nicol - Not a spoiler but only mildly related, so... (view spoiler)[ I went to panic-cook dinner last night and pulled a bag of 'Quorn' (an exotic import from the UK) out of the freezer. Curious about it, I read the ingredients and the first one was 'mycoprotein'. For a few seconds, I was like "what the hell even is that?", quickly followed by "OMG Amatka porridge!". I cooked it into some pasta sauce and ate it. Incredibly timely introduction to a specific food 😂

Also very curious about what your other mushroom-including books recently were! (hide spoiler)]

[Alex]

I stayed up last night reading past my bedtime because I was so intrigued by the beginning of the story. I'm about a 1/5th the way through, and it's very Soviet Block feeling so far.

[DivaDiane]

So I stayed up too late to finish this last night (seems a common occurrence with this book!). I have to say, loved all of it, except the ending. It felt rushed. And what happened (view spoiler)[ to Vanja and how that affected her ability to commune with the world didn’t seem right. Like many, I thought the way things happened and what Vanja discovered when she was making the key, shouldn’t have cut her off when she couldn’t speak properly anymore.

This is the 2nd book this week which includes something that directly relates to the stroke and it’s aftermath that my father suffered 8 years ago. He passed away on Dec. 16th and while you might think these books might be triggering, it actually was not. It just amplified my sadness for what they did to Vanja. (hide spoiler)]

Poetry didn’t seem necessary to the (view spoiler)[ Creation of reality but it seemed fitting, to me at least, that a poet should figure it out on her own. With a poet’s intention towards precise language, she would have butted heads with the generalization that was necessary for the marking of objects. No differentiation or variation could really be tolerated. (hide spoiler)]

I’m afraid you’ve put me right off of ever trying Quorn. I actually love mushrooms, but the idea of everything I eat being some variation of mycoprotein is just so sad.

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

This is the January 2023 scifi group read. Open spoilers from now on.

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions