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There but for the: Main Course (Jul 2019)
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At first the wandering sentences with too many commas made me question my patience for the writing, but the plot hooked me. I enjoyed the different tones and writing styles in each of the four chapters, but I particularly liked Brooke's chapter. Smith's style seemed to fit well with Brooke's active vocabulary and conversational style.
butWord play was not as chronic, but rhyming was in the forefront. Mark, made a conscientious effort to rhyme when speaking, an influence of his mother who enjoyed rhyming due to he love for song. He's also a tortured character, seemed to have a habit of thinking out loud while under the impression his thoughts were contained. The outburst at the beginning of the chapter when Mark was at the observatory, he was having a legitimate conversation with his mother, in his mind; it just so happened a family was standing in front of him, watching him, speaking to nobody in particular. I was taken aback by the interaction-not knowing what to make of it except for that Mark was going mad. On the anniversary of his mother's passing, he was evidently still grieving her tragic death from forty-seven years ago.
Back at the dinner party, Mark was rather inebriated and had another one of those moments; this time, it was triggered by thoughts of his partner who had recently died a few years ago. Clearly suffering from the voids left in his life by two very important and influential people, it was obvious the man was extremely lonely; even in his pursuance of Miles, be it as a potential partner, or even just a friend, there was a desperation about Mark I couldn't shake.
Terence whistling Somewhere over the Rainbow; Hugo getting drunker and a little belligerent; Richard’s off color room’s full of pansies remark and a litany of others said under his breath, or sometimes even out loud; not to mention both he and his wife badgering Mark with stereotypical inferences about his gay lifestyle was terrible; however, wasn't the insinuation of Miles being gay a bit abhorrent, his place card even stating Mark's Partner? Genevieve Lee was no better in fueling some of those stereotypical archetypes. The blatantly rude behavior of these people in front of a total stranger, like Miles, if the homophobic drivel was not bad, to add insult to injury, the issue of immigration was even more colorful a topic amongst these people. The imposing questions asked of both Terence and Berenice as the token people of color, other than their child… the party was well on its way to becoming a true train wreck of a gathering, it was a disaster! The funny thing was, Mark had a feeling that these parties of Genevieve’s always had this type of outcome; inviting a stranger(s), year after year to her dinners. Ali Smith was hyper focused on painting these middle class/upper middle-class guests as anything but …um, having any class or decorum? An educated group, well to do members of society; yet, they were depicted no worse than non-intellectuals or people unaware of social graces aside from Terence and Berniece, whom it appeared she treated with a more likable brushstroke. By the end of this chapter, Miles’ name has even been changed to Milo because
Miles sounds a bit, well, wet. A bit middle class, you know (127)?What’s going on here, if anything…is the middle class provoking the ire in what Ali Smith considers to be the downfall of society…the lack of culture...empathy...something simple as cooth?
They are all exhausting and wear on the nerves of one another, do they genuinely even appreciate each other enough to call themselves friends? . At one point, Brooke the child, one of the only two adults in the room puts her head down and falls asleep at the dinner table while the others are still busy having their inane conversations. A little later, Miles too has left the table and is about to officially barricade himself into one of Genevieve and Eric’s guest rooms. They both have dissociated themselves from the chaos of the room, in their own way.
The writing for but continues to be visceral, to the point where I felt I actually had a seat at the dinner table…the only sober guest amongst some socially lubricated, if not downright drunk individuals. LOL! If the revelation of Faye’s suicide, Plath-like, and its effect on Mark were not bad enough, it was how we learned about it, and more about Mark that was horrendous…Mark overhearing the dinner party guests talking about him while he was away from the table. Oy.
Miles …While telling his story about taking a taxi between a couple of small towns, loses his train of thought because he has observed Miles do something strange; he has slipped the smaller of the two salt cellars…down under the table (97). A little later, Mark happens to see Miles through a door. Smith writes…
Miles seems to be measuring something by stepping and counting, stepping and counting. He looks charming, preoccupied…He has taken his knife and fork upstairs with him. He puts them on the sideboard, takes the salt cellar out of his pocket and puts it down next to them.A news crew had arrived; the producer wanting to interview those familiar with Genevieve Lee’s dinner guest who never left; a crowd too had formed behind their home giving all onlookers a view of the window looking into the room Miles/Milo had occupied. It was quite curious here how Smith wrote about the burgeoning fanfare surrounding Miles/Milo’s self inflicted circumstance, eliciting more sympathy for Miles/Milo than the Lees, people sending him baskets filled with fruits and vegetables using a pulley system because word had gotten out Genevieve was only feeding him deli meat. How does this happen, are people in general also starved to join a cause, to follow?
What are they for? Mark says.
Miles shrugs his shoulders.
Eating with, he says (107).
While I’ve touted Smith to be quite funny, this particular chapter had me cringing in displeasure over the realistic aspects of the flaws in society. Wait, Mark and his red wine situation had me rolling…this poor guy! He wanted was some damn red wine and all that was in front of him was white. His anxiety over the white wine he would not be drinking and the red wine sitting on the buffet, again, it was sad he couldn’t overcome pleasant guest niceties. I couldn’t help but laugh, laugh at how close he was to having red wine; yet, unable to reach it. Exacerbating the situation were the two inept hosts, who couldn’t have been bothered to ask their guests of their preference in wine and instead giving them no options. All this stress over wine? I can understand his pain. Goodness!
To those of you who have already commented on the impact of the word,
but
as a means of being revelatory, I thought of you when I read Miles and Mark addressing the use of the word on pages 116-117, finding Miles' own words to cement some your very own when he said, Yeah, but the thing I particularly like about the word but, now that I think about it, is that it always takes you off to the side, and where it takes you is always interesting.Isn't this what has occurred in much of this chapter, but also in that moment where Anna realized she was not standing in front of Brooke's home, but Genevieve Lee's?
Bretnie wrote: "At first the wandering sentences with too many commas made me question my patience for the writing, but the plot hooked me. I enjoyed the different tones and writing styles in each of the four chap..."The differing voices divulge so much more than just an opinion; each character's socioeconomic background, what or whom had shaped them and their tendency to cope are all revealed through Smith's ability to tap into the individual personality make-up and their sociopolitical consciousness.
but..where we go inside Mark's head, meet his mother Faye, and re-live all the awful dinner party. By the end of the section, some time (how long?) later, it is October and Anna has organized an outside (literally) support group for Miles.
the
Where it is spring, and we go inside Brooke's head. Yikes! Where we learn more about Miles (sorry, Mr. Garth) and Brooke, and the very simple explanation of the prelude.
However, I lost track of Anna. She had been instrumental in organizing the "outside support" in the previous section, and then ... ?
Ami, as you said earlier, "Genevieve Lee is the epitome of composure at all costs," and then it turns out that SHE's the one organizing the sideshow outside, while her husband quietly slides off to quieter pastures. I suppose her focus on the value of things was more on the value than the things.
Oh, by the way, I just noticed another bit of play:
The title page (unlike the cover) uses four different typefaces for the four words, typefaces that repeat in the section headings. Meaning? Dunno.
Also, ironic, in an author that has banned the quote mark, that she uses the parenthesis as a central organizing tool, flagging (though I often missed when she did) major jumps back in time.
butOh, the funniest exchange (p85):
Hannah asks the Bayoudes if they've ever seen a real tiger at home. Not in Yorkshire, they say. She asks where they're from originally. They tell her they were living in Harrogate and working at the University of York, which is where they met.
but - late October, Winter: "It made things visible"the - spring
I like the seasonal distinction and remember finding Smith's Seasonal Quartet during my background search. There have been mentions of these books in previous posts. Recommendations for my next Ali Smith read?
but
"rhyme the invention of a barbarous age" "rhyme helps memory; it's much easier to memorize something that rhymes" I love how Brooke refuses to be lectured to even when she has asked a question. I wonder if she gets to participate in adult discussions and feel that she could probably hold her own. Terence continues ...."when things rhyme it reminds them of their childhoods; it's also like rhyme is saying, hey, things are good, they're all right, they're in some kind of harmony, they may even be funny". "Memorizing is conceptually and physiologically different from remembering". "Duh, the child says." Ha! This makes me think of James H's recent performance on Jeopardy. Not only has he memorized/learned a lot of information, his retrieval skills are what impressed me the most.
I would have appreciated a diagram of the table and place cards in this section. Guess I should have drawn one.
I noticed multiple references to the 17th century in the book and wonder if there is meaning to those mentions? I noticed because that century pops up quite frequently for me in my day-to-day.
Good observation about the typefaces, Mark. Bet we'll come up with some ideas by the next thread. But
I found Mark charmingly strange, but that dinner party! Geez, I could understand why Miles locked himself upstairs. Anything would be better than sitting through that. Did anyone else feel like Gen/Jen lost the distinctive voice she had when talking with Anna? She seemed a different person. Well, still a jerk, but a different jerk. :-)
For
I loved, loved, loved this part. May was fascinating, and I enjoyed how Smith floated in and out between her memory and present reality. I also found the way it came together with the story in the end ingenious.
On to the ...
Mark wrote: "but..where we go inside Mark's head, meet his mother Faye, and re-live all the awful dinner party. By the end of the section, some time (how long?) later, it is October and Anna has organized an ..."
The title page (unlike the cover) uses four different typefaces for the four words, typefaces that repeat in the section headings. Meaning? Dunno.
I just noticed this after you pointed it out. Discord, I think discord is the meaning.
Also, ironic, in an author that has banned the quote mark, that she uses the parenthesis as a central organizing tool, flagging (though I often missed when she did) major jumps back in time.
yes, I noticed it while reading, the lack of quotations. Now, it makes sense why she uses the word say(s) so much. The parentheses, it didn't bother me as much as the lack of quotes.
but...
it is October and Anna has organized an outside (literally) support group for Miles.
Why? Why would this need to happen...Why is this man getting so much more sympathy than the homeowner who's space has been infringed upon by a stranger? How far is Smith willing to take this in order to stick it to Genevieve, the class of society to which she belongs?
the...
"Genevieve Lee is the epitome of composure at all costs," and then it turns out that SHE's the one organizing the sideshow outside, while her husband quietly slides off to quieter pastures.
From what i've understood in reading there and but , Anna and Genevieve are like dueling pianos, each playing a different tune. I also found Miles' occupying a room in Genevieve's home to elicit so much more compassion from the public than Genevieve has... no? If this in fact is the reality of the situation, Genevieve's write up in the Guardian Weekend is her making an attempt at controlling the narrative...in an orderly and appropriate fashion (for her). She's wouldn't be caught dead asking folks to camp out on her behalf. Heavens, no. What would that do for her property value? HA! Three months later and she's the same Genevieve Lee, isn't she? Yes, she's still the queen of composure, in spite of Miles being the death of her. HA!
I suppose her focus on the value of things was more on the value than the things.
I agree 100%
This book might as well have had illustrations because the narrative is rather diagrammatic, what say you, Mark?
Mark wrote: "butOh, the funniest exchange (p85):
Hannah asks the Bayoudes if they've ever seen a real tiger at home. Not in Yorkshire, they say. She asks where they're from originally. They tell her they wer..."
What in the sam hell was this, Mark? I tell you...! Smh. LOL!
Sarah wrote: "but - late October, Winter: "It made things visible"the - spring
I like the seasonal distinction and remember finding Smith's Seasonal Quartet during my background search. There have been mentions..."
I wonder if she gets to participate in adult discussions and feel that she could probably hold her own.
I have no doubt that she does, look at how her parents treat her...not as a child, but as an adult. Sure, they have to explain concepts to her, but they don't condescend to her, nor lose their patience with her. I'd be surprised if they engaged in any baby talk with Brooke ever.
Rhyming
I won't lie, it took me back to my childhood, and for a hot minute, I also thought all with the world was all right...in harmony.
I would have appreciated a diagram of the table and place cards in this section. Guess I should have drawn one.
If you do, please don't hesitate to post it in here!
Kathleen wrote: "Good observation about the typefaces, Mark. Bet we'll come up with some ideas by the next thread. I found Mark charmingly strange, but that dinner party! Geez, I could understand why Miles lo..."
but...
but that dinner party! Geez, I could understand why Miles locked himself upstairs.
Did you get the feeling at all that nobody was really actively listening? The number of times Mark refers to Gen as Jan; they're all talking over one another instead of talking to each other.
Did anyone else feel like Gen/Jen lost the distinctive voice she had when talking with Anna?
Forget Gen, where was Eric's voice? LOL! I was often shocked of his presence because he popped up out of nowhere like a thief in the night the very few times he was referenced.
Kathleen, I didn't see her any different from her meeting with Anna to the dinner party. Gen may very well have been as loquacious at the party; but, the pauses in the narrative, the breaks between people speaking, this effect quite possibly drowned her out ...again, maybe a confirmation that nobody was really listening in the first place. Does this make sense? Perhaps somebody else has another take?
The worst one at the party is Richard and what’s the short form of his name?
for…May Young was old.
If but was a stark contrast to the tone and flow of there, then for deviated further from the previous two chapters. It read like a literary thrupple (for lack of a better analogy) between an action sequence and drama comedy combo, telling the story of an elderly woman suffering from the deviousness of dementia. While a genuinely heart wrenching depiction of a stratifying mind, this particular chapter was by far the most entertaining due to it’s charismatic character, May Young. I loved her! A representation of a simpler time when telephone and face to face conversations were the only two options besides written correspondence, when people had real closeness in their relationships; Smith via May Young brings to light the obsession and dependence society has with its devices…
That was them these days, spending all their time looking up things on the intimate…It was all the intimate, and answer-phones and things you had to speak at rather than to. Nobody there.This next line made me laugh, May thinking in extremes which was common for those other generation; but it was also a reminder of a running theme in the novel, that nothing was as it seemed or the tendency to pass judgement…there but for the grace of God go I.
The girl was clearly some kind of do-gooder, and if not, she was thief (149).
Sarah wrote: "but - late October, Winter: "It made things visible"the - spring
I like the seasonal distinction and remember finding Smith's Seasonal Quartet during my background search. There have been mentions..."
17th Century literature
Sarah, I didn't happen to look these up. However, I did pick up on the Kafka from earlier in the novel applying to Anna Hardie/Anna K; so, I don't doubt a connection would exist to the titles mentioned. Ali Smith, if I have learned anything about her writing, she's not frivolous; there quite literally is a means to her madness.
I don't have my copy on hand at this moment, but if you have them written down, or have the page numbers handy, post them here and I will look into it. Thanks!
Ami wrote: "Sarah wrote: "but - late October, Winter: "It made things visible"the - spring
I like the seasonal distinction and remember finding Smith's Seasonal Quartet during my background search. There have..."
Not frivolous but playful - She does subvert the concept of a novel in a fun and entertaining way.
Ami:You said
but...
it is October and Anna has organized an outside (literally) support group for Miles.
Why? Why would this need to happen...Why is this man getting so much more sympathy than the homeowner who's space has been infringed upon by a stranger? How far is Smith willing to take this in order to stick it to Genevieve, the class of society to which she belongs?
Well, a) Anna is out of work and willing to be the agent that sticks it to Gen, b) she was more-or-less deputized to be his "agent" by Gen when she gave her Miles' jacket and phone, and c) If this is a several-months' occupation, the plot needs some way of keeping him alive; the support group also provides a link between all the non-Gen folks so the story can switch between actors.
Also, about the tiger. Almost every character makes similar errors of assumption, even if not so racist (or funny): Brooke mishears Anna's name when she says "Broke," Mark's Jen Jan Gen confusion, and Josie Lee's misunderstanding of May's dislike of Harbor House as a fear of boats, among others.
Kathleen, I sure agree about that dinner party!
Mark wrote: "Ami:You said but...
it is October and Anna has organized an outside (literally) support group for Miles.
Why? Why would this need to happen...Why is this man getting so much more sympathy than t..."
I love your choice of words here, Mark...Anna as an 'agent' to stick it to Genevieve. It wasn't so much the handing off of Miles' jacket from one person to another that was lost on me, but it was the symbolic nature of the exchange that I did lose sight of. It's so much clearer now as I recall the course of the events in my mind.
the...
You notice Miles' cup he was drinking out of at dinner was the same cup he drank tea in with Brooke? The cup had a tiger on it.
More to come about the...
the…
Oh, to have a front row seat into the mind of a precocious little girl like Brooke…Ask, and ye shall receive. This little girl literally doesn’t stop, her mind is like an explosion of thoughts, like a never-ending display of fireworks always in motion, and we have a narrative that mimics her mind directly…garrulous, wordy, prattling, you can call it any which way, it’s all the same. It is both exciting and exhausting all at the same time. There was something about the that did have me thinking about the juxtaposition of it following May Young’s for . In both chapters, the narrative is a direct reflection of each character’s mental state, each chapter verbose and extremely busy in nature; however, the portrayals are of two females from opposing ends of various spectrums: one free from affliction while the other suffers from it, one young, the other elderly, etc… While May’s dementia is evident in for, I found the inclusion of the put things in a far more serious perspective in regards to May. I found myself scared for her...an aspect of her disease I had not originally thought prevalent in her chapter.
Smith’s macro worldview has slowly taken on a more micro feel in the chapter, giving us a first hand look into the inner workings of Brooke while also coming full circle with this most bizarre story that, quite frankly, wasn’t bizarre at all in the end… or was it? I was excited to read how everything unfolded; telling a story within a story, or multiple stories as Smith would have it. It reminded me of Joseph Conrad’s use of this very same technique in, Heart of Darkness. I understand telling a story within a story is a device used by many authors, but Conrad’s use of it was memorable for me to where I can recall it. Here, Brooke’s voice becomes so much more distinguished and commanding; the inclusion of the historical references, their factual accuracy, they become stories in her own grande mind as she works through all the details. Smith builds her up to be able to stand on a platform of her very own; thus, Brooke becoming a reliable and likable point of view, in comparison to the other dinner guests. No?
Other aspects
I was wondering if the mystery girl glued to her intimate in May Young’s room wasn’t Josie from but …the one who had constant access to the Lee home? At the time I was curious why this kid would have all that access to the Lee home, thinking if she was their daughter. Perhaps, Josie was referenced even earlier and I may have forgotten, but it was a nice revelation to read she was in fact, Josie Lee.
Paper airplanes and stationary bikes…I believe it was Marc who brought up framing devices in the previous course, but I thought the little bite into the main story Smith gives us at the very beginning, bringing it full circle to the moment at the end…oh, my! How great was this? Brooke telling her tales within Smith’s tale, the concept of the slave clock, how that seed also comes to fruition with the trigger words consisting of second hand books...second hands of clocks! Maybe I’m starved, but I find these little details to be remarkable. When I think of framing devices in story telling, generally, I always think about Dave Chappelle-he’s a master at it! Framing, I notice it more so in the oratory style, I’ve never really observed it in my reading portrayed in such a seamless and clever manner, or maybe I have and am just on an Ali Smith high? It happens! :P
Genevieve Lee profiting off of what I thought was an intrusion into her life, her marriage on the skits, husband has moved out, the whereabouts of her daughter “probably” unknown to her… heartless capitalism at play?
Miles’ door had been unlocked for the longer part of five months, I believe… Of course, it was open, of course. HA!
but
I wanted to mention it earlier in my post for this chapter, how Mark and Brooke said their good-byes to one another. Brooke is aware Mark’s mother is dead and his being abandoned by his father. He tells her to give her parents his regards, she says to him regards to yours too (127). I don’t remember perfectly well, but did he happen to mention to her that he was speaking to his mother sitting on that park bench, or perhaps she had tapped into his grief having noticed his outbursts, their subject matter... The latter being more likely a scenario, considering how intuitive she is?
There’s so much else to discuss, I could go on and on; but, I want to hear more from you.
Ami, you write..This little girl literally doesn’t stop, her mind is like an explosion of thoughts, like a never-ending display of fireworks always in motion.
... and I was amused that this had the realistic effect on her teachers in their complaining notes to her parents.
Smith's precocious girls in other books are a little older and less scattershot, but they are always an endearing high point of their stories.
Mark wrote: "Ami, you write..This little girl literally doesn’t stop, her mind is like an explosion of thoughts, like a never-ending display of fireworks always in motion.
... and I was amused that this had ..."
I loved the ending's discussion of being clever/cleverest/cleverist!
Mark wrote: "Ami, you write..This little girl literally doesn’t stop, her mind is like an explosion of thoughts, like a never-ending display of fireworks always in motion.
... and I was amused that this had ..."
Yes, the voice of the teachers still reverberates in my mind-I guess like it did for her-as much as she brought it up? Poor, kid!
Oh, that’s good to know about her other characters of a similar vein. For me, it’s enough reason to read more Ali Smith... for the Brooke’s of her world.
but:Loved this book, my first by the author. Packed with ideas, playful language and intriguing loose ends that seem to invite speculations. Among a couple of mine (not meant in any way as criticisms of the book's plausibility or other virtues):
a) why did Miles leave the party at that particular time in that particular house to start his months-long squat – preplanned or spontaneous? And (b) how could any adult with a job, bills, etc. face the personal consequences of his action?
First, by the time Mark notices Miles hiding his salt cellar (collecting survival supplies), Miles has crossed swords with Hugo over the latter’s gross sexism, heard angrier and louder homophobic slurs from Richard, and listened to racist questions from Hannah and his hosts. Then Richard (almost a cartoon villain, I thought) starts criticizing immigration and Caroline launches an assault on all contemporary art. Though the brilliant Bayoudes did their best to counter most of this, Gen & Eric did not, implicitly accepting their regular guests’ views. Miles leads a toast to the hosts, then leaves to begin his bedroom takeover. Just after he leaves, Caroline refers contemptuously to the kind of art “where people put themselves in glass cases in a gallery to get looked at…” Could one at least argue that Miles was, in part, engaged in a sort of artistic act of protest against the hateful prejudices of his hosts and their ilk?
Second, I wondered at the practicalities of his months-long isolation. In this specific case, we likely know far too little about Miles’ job, savings and housing situation to say much. Unlike the protagonist in Ottessa Moshfegh’s My Year of Rest and Relaxation, his seems to me a spontaneous, unprepared act, evidenced by the fact that he left his wallet and phone behind.
Unless he had patient clients, savings aplenty, and all bills on autopay (or relatives to cover for him), he faced job loss and eviction. But maybe at the time he saw that as his fate no matter what he did. The novel is set in 2010, when the Great Recession had driven up the unemployment rate to nearly 10% in London (and the US) – even higher for those in temporary positions. Ali Smith seems to make a point of mentioning the adults’ occupations, and those characters portrayed favorably mostly hold unstable freelance niche positions (Miles, Mark), temporary academic gigs (Terence and perhaps Bernice) or are unemployed (Anna’s choice, but with no fallback job yet).
Ali Smith’s writing suggests to me an author clearly interested in economic forces. (Full disclosure: yup, I’m an economist.) Fun fact: she worked for years on a PhD at Newnham College – which sits a few feet across Sidgwick Avenue from Cambridge’s Faculty of Economics. A stretch, I know, but Is it impossible that young Ali might have hung out at the Sidgwick Site Buttery to catch the Keynesians and Neoclassicals havering to each other?
Mod
At one point, during the dinner conversation, they touch on a French telecom pushing its employees to suicide. I believe the legal trial for that company is just coming to a close now, nearly a decade later: France Telecom Workplace Bullying Trial Draws to Close. I offer it up as an unused condiment from our meal together. (Wow, that sounded a lot dirtier than intended... )
Marc wrote: "Did anybody understand the connection between Miles and May? He sends Josie to find her and apologize that he can't be there (the way he usually is on an annual basis). I felt like I missed somethi..."He knew her daughter who had died, they were classmates, and he would visit her every year on the anniversary of her death.
Mod
I appreciate the explanation. Not sure if I didn't register this or just forgot it rather quickly!
I found myself sort of stopped short with each chapter change. Just as I was really charmed by a character or storyline and wanting even more, Smith brings out the next course. It almost felt like a type of reset button. As a reader, I was having to refind my place/rhythm, figure out who these new characters were, what their relationship was to the others, etc.. Normally, this would frustrate the hell out of me, but Smith makes it work.
Gregory wrote: "but:Loved this book, my first by the author. Packed with ideas, playful language and intriguing loose ends that seem to invite speculations. Among a couple of mine (not meant in any way as critici..."
why did Miles leave the party at that particular time in that particular house to start his months-long squat – preplanned or spontaneous?
Spontaneous. Miles is the embodiment of a person who lives without any false pretenses-he is genuinely himself. Sitting amongst a group of strangers who are full of false pretenses and portray themselves as anything but who they really are has to be absolutely uncomfortable for him.
The talk of theater, the Hamlet references, the dinner guests (aside from Miles, Brooke and her parents) are actors at a dinner where all the world is a stage is in play- they are not really there, those guests are not credibly present. The discussions resort to incendiary statements about immigration, art and culture being of no importance; there's borderline homophobia surfacing, the adhering to stereotypes as fact... it's all coming to a point for somebody like Miles, somebody who is there and present, himself, to make an exit for a personal time-out. He'd had it, plain and simple. Brook as well for that matter, whom I also consider to be authentic like Miles, falling asleep at the dinner table around the same time Miles happens to leave the dinner table-she was exhausted by all of the mendacity.
And (b) how could any adult with a job, bills, etc. face the personal consequences of his action?
Yes, this aspect teased my left-brain dominance; but, I fought thinking about it any further. I chose to buy into the strength of the narrative moving this story forward, believing that all is quite possible.
I'll think about it before month's end, I promise. :)
Could one at least argue that Miles was, in part, engaged in a sort of artistic act of protest against the hateful prejudices of his hosts and their ilk?
I see him as this, yes. Talk of functioning borders, open borders, I also thought of Miles as a refugee as well. I think this is the brilliance of Smith's work here, using Miles in these various capacities to exemplify the realities of the world. I admit, it didn't dawn on me at first while reading that Miles could be these very things until I finished the book. That's when the a-ha moment came.
Miles seeking refuge from chaos at dinner in one of the Lee's bedrooms, the Lee's O.U.T. (our unwanted tenant), opting to starve Miles out of their home by feeding a vegetarian deli ham because beggars can't be choosers...they don't want him to get too at home, even the pretense of those who believe a borderless world exists... are sentiments commonly used by people when topics of border control/open borders come up (14, 22 & 146).
But, TheThe dinner party from Hell! Gen and Eric (well, it seems mostly Gen) set this up as a freak show. Their annual "alternative" guests are there to be poked and prodded--tortured, in fact. This year they have invited a gay couple (they think) and a black couple who have had the audacity to move into the neighbourhood. Previously:
It was always interesting to branch out. Last year they had invited a Muslim couple; the year before they had had a Palestinian man and his wife and a Jewish doctor and his partner. That had resulted in a very entertaining evening.But this year, the plan backfires. The cabal of six snobs, so secure in their superiority, are subverted by a little girl. And a little "black" girl, at that. As Brooke analyses in chapter "the", the frame that is inherent in our language is the assumption that people are white (and male) unless modified.
the girl ran across the park, and unless you add the describing word then the man or the girl are definitely not black, they are white, though no one has mentioned white, like when you take the the out of a headline and people just assume it’s there anyway. Though if it were a sentence about Brooke herself it would have to add the equivalent describing word and that’s how you’d know. The black girl ran across the park.The hero of this story is Brooke, of course.
but This section was where I finally began to engage with the story. The awful dinner party - their assumptions about Terence and Bernice (I smiled and winced at the same time when Hannah was trying to lecture them about exploring 'their' culture), and about Mark and Miles. in fact, it's Mark and Hugo who have been having a fling!!
Very interested in the points made about borders, Mark summed this up when musing on the Observatory.
" Here was all about the visible-invisible borders, the thin lines between here and gone, then and now, here and there, random and meant, big and small".
People are crossing these borders throughout the book, literally and figuratively.
ForJennifer was not Miles' girlfriend. Well, she was a girl, and she was his friend. Obviously a friend that had a huge impact on him, because he makes contact with May every year on the anniversary of Jennifer's death. May's memories give us a very important piece in the mosaic (or picture puzzle) the reader has to put together to get the picture of Miles. In a visually vivid and emotionally wrenching scene, with the audio of the sewing machine shutting out the communication, we learn that Miles as a young child was raped by his grandfather to the tune of "I Love to Laugh". May's response is to deny she heard this, and to deny Jennifer the right to continue her friendship. Then Jennifer dies (do we know how?) and Grace has a snapshot of Miles once a year, as if she was watching her daughter grow up. So powerful.
Mod
Ginny wrote: "ForJennifer was not Miles' girlfriend. Well, she was a girl, and she was his friend. Obviously a friend that had a huge impact on him, because he makes contact with May every year on the annivers..."
In a visually vivid and emotionally wrenching scene, with the audio of the sewing machine shutting out the communication, we learn that Miles as a young child was raped by his grandfather to the tune of "I Love to Laugh".
A funny thing happened to me while I read this part of Jennifer's conversation...I couldn't see through the tears welling up in my eyes. It is as you say, an emotionally and wrenching scene, Ginny. However, at the time, I don't think it registered to me as rape, not trusting my own eyes. What I remember immediately thinking at the time, was that this moment brought me back to dinner, but an uglier and more perverse dinner, a dinner that would rival a bacchanal. I thought about: the profession of an ethical consultant, how someone would pursue such a career; Jennifer's comment to May In the future, I will keep my worries in the confines of my head; Miles leaving the table, taking his worries and keeping them in the confines of Genevieve Lee's guest room. I knew...I didn't know? It makes a hell of a difference, a slap to the face really, when it's spelled out for you.
Then Jennifer dies (do we know how?)
I thought she had passed due to her heart condition (144)?
Grace has a snapshot of Miles once a year, as if she was watching her daughter grow up. So powerful.
May recalling exactly this was one of the more poignant moments in this novel. I loved how she couldn't bring herself to speak to him, year after year; speaking only through gesture(s). for is genuinely a lovely chapter.
I found the dinner party very realistic, pompous middle class characters with their prejudices on display. I found it interesting that Richard was the most obnoxious. I recall reading that the name Richard has come to signify a dislikable type in (British) literature. For instance, in Mrs Dalloway, Mr. Dalloway's first name is Richard. I think this harks all the way back to Shakespeare's Richard III. Any other unpleasant Richards you can think of?
In response to the mention of Marc's mother Faye, I looked up the artist Faye Palmer but couldn't find any connection. I have found that in her other novels, Smith often alludes to a neglected female artist, but in this case it seems Smith may have simply made her up. That she is linked to Sylvia Plath is certainly a loaded connection.
I also loved the word play on internet as the intimate. This reminds me of Mark and Miles initial meeting at the theatre, and Miles' comments on the relevance of the cell phone going off -- someone actually trying to make a connection in the 21st century. With everyone so caught up in their own lives, connections are barely possible. To a great extent, the internet does seem to have replaced intimacy. Some of my students tell me they do not know how to deal with face to face encounters, so they resort to texting.
Elaine wrote: "I also loved the word play on internet as the intimate. This reminds me of Mark and Miles initial meeting at the theatre, and Miles' comments on the relevance of the cell phone going off -- someone..."And here we are. Getting pretty intimate. I am so grateful for the connections I have made via Goodreads and Facebook for exploring literature. I love being retired, and love rural living, but it is hard to find others with similar interests to talk books. Also, the conversations via these platforms allow time flexibility. Face to face conversations are the best, of course, but.
Elaine wrote: "I found the dinner party very realistic, pompous middle class characters with their prejudices on display. I found it interesting that Richard was the most obnoxious. I recall reading that the name..."In literature, unfortunately, no. In politics, yes... a choice few.
Elaine wrote: "I also loved the word play on internet as the intimate. This reminds me of Mark and Miles initial meeting at the theatre, and Miles' comments on the relevance of the cell phone going off -- someone..."Some of my students tell me they do not know how to deal with face to face encounters, so they resort to texting.
That sounds horrifying, cementing how technology exacerbates depression and anxiety by creating the illusion of someone’s presence while on the intimate; when really it’s the concept of absent-presence at play. Thus, the prevalence of technology and loneliness is in effect.
I believe it may also be influencing language, using text speak with one another instead of conversational (insert chosen language here). Technology has the ability to shape our thought in more ways than one (not all bad either), and at a faster rate than many would have expected. I don’t think anybody could foresee the deleterious effects of technology on society, in the various modes many become dependent on its ability to instantly gratify, in the long term however.
Mod
The absence-presence concept is a fascinating one. Even when one is intimately connecting via phone or laptop, that usually means we are not "present" wherever we're physically located (no longer aware of our immediate surroundings, not actually engaging with the environment or the people coming into physical contact with us, etc.). I keep waiting to come across a Buddhist essay titled something like "Mindfulness & Smartphone Usage," but it would probably be pretty short... maybe just one word: Don't.
Have others noticed in their lives that a little distance often removes some barriers to communication? I'm not sure distance is the right word, but Smith makes use of it in this book quite a bit. (What I mean by "distance" is more like demographics--a child & an adult speaking; a young adult and an older adult; opposite genders but opposite sexualities--things that remove what may be obstacles to intimacy/communication such as sexual attraction, competition for attention/resources, jealousy, etc. Sometimes, it's just familiarity/location in the way that it's often easier to strike up conversation with strangers when traveling then when in your own hometown.)
In response to Marc's last comment, isn't that precisely how Miles and Mark strike up a conversation, in fact, connect, prompted by Miles' remark about the profundity of the cell phone going off in the theatre? They do connect over this, however briefly, as Mark is drawn in by Miles' insight. Come to think of it, this scene seems central to the narrative. It is about connecting, and in terms of Miles's locking himself in the room, their accidental meeting also provides a plot device. But the connection doesn't last, just as many relationships were ended in the survey of the character's pasts, such as Mark's early loss of his mother. There is also May's loss of her child. Perhaps Smith is drawing on the Buddhist emphasis on impermanence! Additionally, there is a strong sense of loss, of grief really, that pervades the narrative. Under the humour, people really aren't able to connect, so I think what my students report is not only a negative effect of technology, but perhaps a consequence of modern life.What are the other losses mentioned in the novel? Doesn't it begin with Anne and her grief?
Elaine wrote: "In response to Marc's last comment, isn't that precisely how Miles and Mark strike up a conversation, in fact, connect, prompted by Miles' remark about the profundity of the cell phone going off in..."Loss... of innocence, of belonging, of mind, of home, of being.
Even before that, it begins with the loss of innocence for Miles, in those preliminary pages.
Marc wrote: "Seems somewhat ironic that there's now a semi-famous Faye Palmer thanks to the reality show Big Brother. The Intimate is such a strange thing. My mom died well before the web was a thing and I rand..."Maybe she should have titled her book... there but not there?
Absent presence in terms of communications behind a screen...Marc, that’s some meta level consciousness being present in both spaces, if achieved!
Distance remind barriers in communication...I see this when I hear or read about people who find it easier to forge relationships from behind a screen versus f2f interactions, those who are loquacious in an email but then dudsville when you meet them.
Instead of removal of obstacles, it really just boils down to personality for me... can you or can you not interact with people all things held constant? Sure, certain hindrances aside, it would make for a more seamless interaction; but, could you do it regardless of their presence?
Absence-presence -- interesting to think of overcoming the binary division here, and which is suggested by the invisible line at Greenwich. This is not the first novel in which Smith challenges binary thinking. In How to Be Both, as suggested by the title, she addresses it more directly as that novel is more specifically about gender divisions.
Gregory wrote: "but:Loved this book, my first by the author. Packed with ideas, playful language and intriguing loose ends that seem to invite speculations. Among a couple of mine (not meant in any way as critici..."
Greg, I thought about it, Miles' finances...
I think he was financially sound, sound enough to have more than enough money available for him to take a hiatus from life. Miles, again, is a mindful person without any of those false pretenses as we've discussed, and I think that also transcends to how he would compose his financial portfolio...with great care, slowly and steadily accruing. Before I knew he was an ethical consultant, I remember reading about his personal belongings that consisted of nothing out of the ordinary, no high dollar items; a few credit cards, a debit card, metro card, some cash, all organized nicely in his wallet. He didn't strike me as being a spendthrift, maybe even living in a bear bones environment surrounded only by necessities, considering he didn't require much space (ergo, walking around measuring the length of the spare bedroom), or much furniture, or many condiments only needing salt and pepper (HA!).
Do you think different?
Ami wrote: Greg, I thought about it, Miles' finances... I think he was financially sound, sound enough to have more than enough money available for him to take a hiatus from life....That all sounds at least as plausible as the scenario I sketched about Miles. It surely would have helped cope with his solitary self-confinement [no phone! no computer! no Goodreads!] if he was a well-off minimalist. If we agree that his was likely a spontaneous sort of artistic statement against the hateful views of Gen, Eric and their pals, maybe he was risking that it would end fairly soon and dramatically, perhaps with some publicity but little long-term personal cost. After all, given their views and the fact that he was basically a stranger trespassing, would it not have been reasonable to assume Gen-Eric would just call in the law to kick him out after a day or two? Did he misjudge them, then just leave quietly after a few, minimal-drama months of being fed and basically left alone by them, if grudgingly? Why didn't he stay for years?!
Might be that time to loosen the top button for some of us. Genevieve Lee may be appalled, I’ll just laugh at you if I see it happen. :P
We have been exposed to quite a buffet of characters. Miles, Anna, Mark, May Young and Brooke (I love this kid!), have all made an appearance and what a bunch they were. There was a lot to digest here. Let's discuss these chapters, what do we gather in each about the individual characters, about Miles?
There But For The builds upon its broken title throughout the narrative with its episodic chapters, fragmented sentences and word play. It is anything but a clean-cut delivery; yet, it is simple enough to where the reader can fill in the gaps when Smith intentionally leaves us hanging with only a word, or two. While it is clear she has a command for language, is able to convey a concise message navigating the mess of human psyches, both sympathetically and unsympathetically; what are your thoughts regarding her writing style… do you find it benign and impactful to the end; banal, her approach having lost its nuance, beating you over the head with the incessant stunted sentence structure; or something else?
Please use this course to discuss all chapters, saving your final thoughts and musings for the Sweets & Nightcap Course.
Also, so as to avoid spoiling anything for anybody, since everybody will be reading at different speeds; if you don't mind adding a header to your posts in reference to the section(s) you will be commenting on, it would very much be appreciated.