Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels discussion
This topic is about
Flowers for Algernon
Buddy Reads
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Flowers for Algernon buddy read, Jun-Jul 2019
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My expectations: I expect it to be good, since so many have recommended it!I haven't even read the blurb. I know the main character is neuroatypical. My edition has a mouse on the cover so I guess there's a mouse...
... and that's all I know. Exciting, huh?
Mod
Wonderful, Kate! I'm glad you're joining. Is this a re-read for you?
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Jun 22, 2019 09:21AM)
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rated it 3 stars
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If you have time in your reading schedule, I recommend reading The Speed of Dark, by Elizabeth Moon as a companion to Flowers For Algernon. It won the Nebula in 2003 and also features a first person account by a neuroatypical protagonist. It's good to see how times and attitudes have changed between the writing of these two books.
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Jun 24, 2019 01:37PM)
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rated it 3 stars
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Let me explain why buddy reads were not instituted in this group before and why I will mostly not be joining them. I am not going to be trying to control what books should or should not be buddy reads, I just want to state the rationale.
In this group, unlike others where they have whole fields of fiction to choose from, we are working from a limited number of books, I think 580. I realize I may never get through all 580 during my lifetime, but I don't want to read all the "good" ones too soon. If, after a few years, I am only left with duds like Darwin's Radio, I will have to go find another group.
With Flowers for Algernon and some other books, for example, Stranger in a Strange Land, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Dune (and others I'm sure I can't think of right now), I think buddy reads are good because most SF readers have read them already. Therefore, these books can't win a monthly vote, and members who can't read them will get frustrated. The only way this group can serve our members these books is via buddy reads.
Another group of books that would be good candidates for buddy reads are books that this group has read in the past but that members missed because they weren't a member yet or they ran out of time.
I can only hope to read most books with the group when the group votes to read them. So for me, at least, I will probably not join buddy reads all the time.
However, if buddy reads start to rule this group, well, then, too bad for that rationale. Plus, if buddy reads rule the group . . . less work for us Mods!
And the important thing is . . . Have fun!
Mod
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Jun 28, 2019 10:57PM)
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rated it 3 stars
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I liked the shorter version better. But that was the version I read first. And I was much younger. So I can't really say that one was better than the other, but the short one affected me more.I second "The Speed of Dark". Excellent book.
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Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning
(last edited Jun 29, 2019 04:30PM)
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Kateblue wrote: "I am done. Not as good as I remembered, but I cried at the end. I went out on the internet and tried to find the shorter one, but I have not been able to yet. Ideas?"Haha, that was quick! Do you think you'll change your 5 star rating?
I was worried from the start that this will be a very sad story; I can already feel it going there and I'm only 30 pages in. (view spoiler)
I really hope that (view spoiler).
Also strongly resisting the urge to flip ahead and see whether the writing style changes! But I like not knowing where it's going.
Mod
1) when I either immediately know when I finish that I am going to read it again because I will be compelled to return to something that I loved that much, or
2) I loved it so much that I was really sorry it was over even though it may be so long or some other reason I know I won't read it again.
However, I dropped it down to three, which may be too low. I just thought there was too much mental blah blah blah in the middle, but maybe that's because I had read it before . . . I now realize that, back in the day, I had the paperback that said "Charlie" on it in big letters. So it must not be the short story I read. It must have been this novel . . .
Enjoy, though, Sarah. It is really worth reading.
And I wrapped it up fast because I have 10 reads starting July 1. Ten. I must be insane. (I have finished one already, and will probably finish another today.)
I finished this book yesterday. It gets a solid 5 star rating from me. I wouldn't say unreservedly that I loved the book, but I did love that it made me think.!!WARNING!!
SPOILERS AHEAD
!!
I assume anyone who has scrolled this far/been in the thread this long has already read it.
Going to disagree with Antti, Ed, Kate and others... I'm glad I read the full version rather than the short story. I was happy to bask in Charlie's brilliance, and that made his eventual decline all the more harrowing.
On his way up, I felt a lot of my teenage realisations about the world echoed on the pages. That moment in life when you realise adults aren't as smart as you thought they were, that everyone is furiously pretending to be smarter, masquerading as more than they are, and will defend themselves at all costs, often by withdrawing from people who they find intellectually intimidating. In polite company, we have a complicit understanding not to push too hard on those insecurities, but that's a vulnerability we know asshole faux-intellectuals can exploit without recourse in order to feel a bit of superiority.
Aside: articulating this reminds me of a funny time that a guy tried to impress me by quoting David Hume as if the thought/quote was his own, not realising I was a philosophy student... he made a hasty retreat in thinly veiled embarrassment, despite the fact that I genuinely thought it was quite nice to find another Hume fan out in the wild.
Charlie wasn't really an asshole, though. He just had low EQ. I think this was really well-written and I think Keyes portrayed his inner turmoil skilfully - that incongruity between different types of intelligence tearing him apart.
The writing was at times beautiful. Casual references to classics that gracefully enrich the narrative, yet never come across as self-indulgent because, or course, Charlie was a genius. For me it's interesting to read about a genius without a shred of jealousy, and without a hint of my inferiority complex bubbling up. Because we know where he came from and we eventually realise where he is going. He is genuine and earnest, and even when others fail to understand him, he has good in his heart and wants to do good for mankind, for himself, and for the Charlie waiting by the window. When he acts like an asshole, it only emphasises how much he is suffering, and we suffer with him because we know how he struggles.
I loved that Keyes didn't make me feel emotionally manipulated. He never laboured the emotional stuff, and often had Charlie reporting his experiences in such a matter-of-fact way. But I still found my heart aching. Charlie's apology to Professor Nemur, the acceptance that his greatest achievement in life was to rest upon the ashes of those who have done so much for him, was a true tragedy.
This book also contains one of the most beautiful descriptions of love I have ever read...
"My body shuddered with giving, and her body shuddered its acceptance.
This was the way we loved, until the night became a silent day. And as I lay there with her I could see how important physical love was, how necessary it was to be in each other's arms, giving and taking. The universe was exploding, each particle away from the next, hurtling us into dark and lonely space, eternally tearing us away from each other - child out of the womb, friend away from friend, moving from each other, each through his own pathway toward the goal-box of solitary death.
But this was the counterweight, the act of binding and holding. As when men to keep from being swept overboard in the storm clutch at each other's hands to resist being torn apart, so our bodies fused a link in the human chain that kept us from being swept into nothing."
WARNING, SPOILERS CONTINUEIt also got me thinking about the morality of the experiment. Are we less of a person if we think less? Are we more of a person if we think more? What is that truly human aspect of intelligence, the thing we believe sets us apart from other animals, despite that not all of us are not lucky (unlucky?) enough to have it?
Is intelligence a gift?
I thought about the moral implications were the experiments to continue. Not only to continue, but to be commoditised. To take people who arguably are a drain on resources at the Warren, those requiring full-time care, those who will make no real contribution to the benefit of mankind (as most of us will not), and altering them to a genius state. Like Charlie, these few months of brilliance may allow them to make contributions to society (through science or otherwise). What if there were rich benefactors willing to sponsor-a-genius, who pay up the cost of the operation for a person to contribute to research in their chosen field. Putting aside the incalculable emotional toll on the individual, there's a utilitarian argument to be made here that could justify the commandeering of individuals in this way.
Putting that aside...
I would like to solicit opinions (if anyone has read this far? lol) at whether you think the ending was a positive one. I do. Each thread of his life was tied off in a neat (if not happy) knot. The meeting with his mother for example I found incredibly cathartic, that even in her senile state he found out that she was still hopeful for him, and always had been, vainly believing he would achieve something in life. He was blessed with a few moments of healing.
Charlie's world expanded through his ordeal, but in the end he had to leave it all behind as it collapsed. But at the conclusion of his reports, he had gained an enduring sense of personhood - this ability to consider himself in a meta capacity, and a lasting sense that he was a complete human being.
The fact that his brain's deterioration, something that the rest of us are likely to experience protracted over the course of years of suffering as we slowly, gradually and painfully realise the full extent of our own mortality, he managed to fast-track in the course of a couple of months on his descent from true brilliance, seems like a mercy that the rest of us could only hope for.
Mod
I also highly rated the book because it affected my feelings as well, for I have a sibling, who is not exactly like Charlie, but with some serious learning problems. This does make me question some points raised by the novel, but overall it makes a great description of the progress.
My personal view is that even temporary improvement is cognitive abilities is better than no change at all. However, what we have in the book, is that Charlie wanted to learn, it was hard but he tied. Quite likely that if there is no will to study, other potential patients woulds not get similar results.
I thing that the ending is not truly positive, but it is better than possible more tragic alternatives (like possible suicide).
Mod
I believe that the execution was flawless, it could not have been written any better. I just cannot imagine the novella version being any better.
Falling asleep, gotta post more later!
Oleksandr wrote: "This does make me question some points raised by the novel, but overall it makes a great description of the progress."It's interesting... a lot of the language used is certainly outdated, but otherwise it stands the test of time. Did you find the book more relatable due to your sibling? Or perhaps more horrific?
Oleksandr wrote: "I thing that the ending is not truly positive, but it is better than possible more tragic alternatives (like possible suicide)."
I was half expecting this outcome too. I think most of us would put some serious thoughts to suicide if were we in his shoes and not be so prepared to hand it all back to the Charlie in the mirror.
Art - curious to hear more of your thoughts, if you find the time to post them :)
Mod
More relatable I guess. In this book, as in some other, which deal with people with developmental problems there is a correct picture of challenges they face and the problem that supposedly normal people may make fun of them. At the same time, like in this book, parents are shown often uncaring or distant, which of course may be the case but in such fiction they are often "people to blame". In reality a challenged person is not a pure innocent angel, to whom people do wrong, they are each with a unique character (as we all are, no surprise I hope) and their demands are often a toll for the family.
Oleksandr wrote: "At the same time, like in this book, parents are shown often uncaring or distant, which of course may be the case but in such fiction they are often "people to blame""Thanks for this insight. You got me thinking... I wanted to blame the mother for how she treated her son, to have her as a scapegoat and put everything in a neat little box, but Keyes didn't make it so easy, and I'm glad he didn't! He revealed this very complex relationship quite well, and in the end I only felt sorry that she suffered.
Mod
I guess the author attempted to add a bit of Freudian psychoanalysis, which was quite popular in media of the time (Hitchcock for example). And I agree that he done a good job not portraying the mother flatly but as a person.
Hugo & Nebula Awards: Best Novels
Books mentioned in this topic
The Speed of Dark (other topics)Darwin's Radio (other topics)
Flowers for Algernon (other topics)
Stranger in a Strange Land (other topics)
The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (other topics)
More...
It is such a highly-rated book and a classic, as well as a nominee for both the Hugo and Nebula. I imagine we'll have plenty of thoughts to share as we read through it. Only 200 pages, so why not join in? :)
If you've read it before, please weigh in too! It seems like it won't come up as a monthly group read since so many people have already read it.
Start date: Sat 29th June 2019
Finish date: Sat 13th July 2019
Feel free to start sooner or finish later, these are just approximate at a relaxed rate of 15 pages/30 mins per day. I set the date a week from now to make sure people have time to join.
Please use the <spoiler>spoiler tag</spoiler> to hide any nasties like this:
(view spoiler)[made you click :) (hide spoiler)]