Why Christianity? discussion
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Did God create evil?
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Nope! God is holy, holy, holy. Holiness is an attribute of God (along with several others). That means that He cannot be evil or create evil since evil is in opposition to His holiness.
Tyrone wrote: "Nope! God is holy, holy, holy. Holiness is an attribute of God (along with several others). That means that He cannot be evil or create evil since evil is in opposition to His holiness."
He allowed for the possibility of evil by allowing free will. That's not the same as creating evil.
Alexandra wrote: He allowed for the possibility of evil by allowing free will. That's not the same as creating evil...."
Yep! I agree. God did not create robots or automatons. The angels have a choice (and one-third chose wrong) and so do man.
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God OF COURSE doesn't DO evil. But creates the existence and possibility of it --- He even defines evil. It's HIS GAME ... and it contains a lot of evil. But He is not to blame. It is always our choice.
Rod wrote: "But, DO angels really have a choice? Are they Still rebelling> Or having second thoughts and wishing to repent>Yes, they do. Lucifer, before he fell and became Satan, was at the head of the class, yet he CHOOSE to rebel with his declarations in Isaiah 14. I don't know if they're still rebelling or if those who did can repent. We have Christ who died for our sins. Who do the angels have? The Bible does not, to my knowledge, address this issue.
I really don't agree that God creates evil or the possibility of evil. That is not possible because of God's nature. As Holy as God is, evil is on the other side of the spectrum. Evil, in my view, is the extreme degradation of sin; there is clear intent to sin in an extreme fashion (murder), no remorse, no compassion, no regard to consequences, no consideration for others but only on oneself (narcissistic), a rejection to even consider God in the equation. Because man is sinful, man creates the possibility to do evil, not God.
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At one point: angels changed their very nature - but never again. Why?
Why won’t we sin in Heaven? Because... only God controls nature’s. And ALLOWED for sin.
Fun topic. Go deeper
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Rod wrote: "Did the angel war in Heaven surprise God? I say NO."Well, duh! ;)
"At one point: angels changed their very nature - but never again. Why?"
Humans and angels both did. The only difference is, God made a redemptive plan for humans, but not angels.
So, IMO, asking why the fallen angels didn't change their nature again would be like asking why humans didn't change their nature after the Fall. Coming from someone as knowledgeable as you, I think that's a silly question ;) Without God's intervention and action not only can they not, they don't want to.
I do assert God allowed for the possibility of evil. I think that much is obvious. Because God is all powerful evil would not exist if God did not allow for the potential.
" at what point was Jesus set to die for our sins (Evil)? Was that reactionary or was that God’s plan from before He cast Satan down to Earth? "
Seems to me you're twisting a bit. What Tyrone said doesn't in anyway suggest God didn't know what would happen and have a plan in place. Yes, God had His plan prior to the fall of Satan, which doesn't negate at all what Tyrone has said.
Tyrone wrote: "Because man is sinful, man creates the possibility to do evil, not God."
This I disagree with, God created the situation that made evil possible by allowing free will. If God did not put in place a situation that created the *possibility to do evil* then evil wouldn't exist - full stop. To suggest otherwise is to deny God is all powerful and in complete control.
However this is NOT the same thing as saying God created evil. Nor does that suggest that evil coming into play caught God by surprise, it did not.
Rod wrote: "Think it through Tyrone: at what point was Jesus set to die for our sins (Evil)? Was that reactionary or was that God’s plan from before He cast Satan down to Earth? At one point: angels changed ..."
Interesting. I have thought this through many times, and I know our salvation was planned before the world, as we know it, came into existence. God knew man would sin, thus in need of a savior. Do you then conclude that God created evil (or sin) just because it exists? I don't. That does not follow. Knowing something would happen is not the same as creating the circumstances for it happening. I know some people react badly when things don't go their way. There's plenty of evidence of that in some of these threads, without naming names. You can't blame the person who created the thread. The Book of Ezekiel tells us that we are responsible for our own "righteousness" (for lack of a better word) and cannot blame our parents, leaders, ministers of anybody else. They will be held accountable for their own "unrighteousness". Our evil is our own, not God's.
What you're calling nature I call character. God didn't change their nature, causing them to sin and take sides with Satan. They did that on their own. Angels were created eternal beings, man was not. I don't believe a person's nature changes without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That is God's doing. However, we make the choice to receive salvation and God "helps us along" by sending His Holy Spirit to strengthen, uphold, and protect us. The angels do not have this benefit.
Just a side thought. Is sin the same as evil? I think not. True, both are wrong and an affront to God and His nature which IMO can't change. Both require repentance. However, sin can be committed without intent. That's one of the reasons for the sin offering ... for unintentional sin (Leviticus 4:2). Evil is intentional; it is deliberate. If I intend to murder, God did not create that circumstance. If I intend to steal or defraud, God did not create that circumstance. That would be against His nature and character.
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It seems we need to define Evil as it pertains to God. We may be arguing different terms.
Is it evil for a man to stick a knife in someone?
Is it evil for a surgeon to stick a knife...?
What changed? Certainly not the action.
I’d say from God’s perspective evil and sin are synonymous. Sin is evil, evil is sin. Our perspective is skewed because we are sinful living among others that are sinful, so we qualify by “degree” and “intent” in order to be just and forgiving on a human level in society. We save the term “evil” for the most egregious.
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Now let’s flip it. Did God create Good?
Use logic and consistent parameters. No emotions.
Rod wrote: "Skewed. Yes.Now let’s flip it. Did God create Good?
Use logic and consistent parameters. No emotions."
Now you’re channeling Robert lol. No thanks.
If you want to discuss that then present your position, using your criteria.
As that’s all you have to say regarding what I said I’ll wait to see if anything else is said I wish to engage with.
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God can flood the world and humanity - that’s wrath and justice.
So evil and sin isn’t a THING or action. But all behaviours must be weighed against God’s intent.
Rod wrote: "Nature is far more strict than character.It seems we need to define Evil as it pertains to God. We may be arguing different terms.
Is it evil for a man to stick a knife in someone?
Is it evil fo..."
I agree in principle that nature is far more strict. Nature is what it is ... it can't be any different than what it is. It is our nature to sin. We were born sinners, that's why we sin.
Sticking a knife in someone is sinful depending on the intent. Obviously not a sin for a doctor who's performing surgery, but for a man attempting to harm another person, yes it is. Intent is the driver, not the act.
Evil is intent driven. Someone is evil or commits an evil act when the intent is counter to the will of God who cannot commit evil because it is not in His nature to do so. If it is not in His nature to do so, then how can He be the creator of it?
I don't agree the sin and evil are the same thing in the eyes of God. Again, God recognizes that we may sin unintentionally; hence the sin offering. If evil is driven by intent to harm, unintentional sin can't be the same thing since there was no intent.
Where does wicked fall on this continuum between sin and evil?
Ha! Ha! Rod - you haven't lost a step! I'm sure most of us are guilty of wickedness at one time or another. Luckily, I answered my own question. In my youth, I was known for throwing a "wicked" curveball. Not Biblical at all, so I'll drop the word from further discussions on this board.
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Rod - probably so - it gave me a permanently sore arm!
I am not an expert and this is a God question. However, I think that God created all with free will, allowing for wickedness, but He is incapable of doing any evil himself.
I think so. Most Christians run from this discussion—— or they flip and flounder.
Do comment.