Vaginal Fantasy Book Club discussion
Sep 2014: Magic Bites
>
Discuss the Alt-Book: A Discovery of Witches
date
newest »
newest »
Frakki wrote: "Oh damn. I thought this was the Main! Oh well."
Me too - it was in the more prominent position on the page.
I really didn't like this. She tried to shove every bit of character building, every bit of world building, every bit of historical and scientific research that she'd done into the book at the expense of the pace of the plotting.
Something would come up that seemed pretty important and then get dropped in favour of making a pot of tea. e.g "Matthew's been sneaking into your room and drugging you with his blood" "Oh. Oh. I am so mad about that and I don't know who to trust... so I guess I will trust the man who has been sneaking into my room and drugging me with his blood. That's only bad because he didn't tell me himself". "You really should be proactive and attack them before they get another shot at you" "Oh. Good idea. Right after we spend 2 weeks eating toast and cookies and dry humping against an apple tree".
The house seemed like Harry Potter's Room of Requirement.
Frakki wrote: "Oh damn. I thought this was the Main! Oh well."It's definitely the lengthy one of the two picks this month, which is why I'm reading it first.
Jessica wrote: "Heather wrote: "Brittany wrote: "Also, can we talk about how the male love interests in romance novels always seem to smell like cinnamon, or sandalwood, or some other earthy scent? Why is that? "..."
Really? I tend to prefer citrusy or fresh scents myself. Not a fan of the musky and spicy.
I'm only just into this book (about 50 pages) but so far I am enjoying it. I loved that it started out in a library!
Hrm, I'm trying to stay interested in this book, but it's a losing battle. Gonna give it a couple more chapters before deciding if I should just lem it and read the main pick instead. Very glad my G+ group has picked an Alt-Alt to read.
I love this book and was already planning to re-read it (along with the second book Shadow of Night) in anticipation of the third in the trilogy coming out. The Book of Life is already out and I've been busy and hadn't gotten around to starting A Discovery of Witches yet, so I was very pleased to see it become one of the VF books this month. I think it sounds like certain people definitely enjoy this book more than others. Maybe it depends on the way you process information. I didn't have an issue with the way Harkness changes topics and doesn't explain important things right away because my brain operates in a similar way. I enjoy the leisurely unfolding of the storyline, and I've always been a sucker for vampires, witches, libraries, and alchemy. To have them all in one novel is pretty much a dream come true for me.
Yeah, I'm having a big problem with the possessiveness and extreme mood changes coming from Matthew. I'll probably finish it because I have a real issue not finishing books once I've started them, but I don't anticipate ever wanting to read any of the others in this series. I did appreciate the library, and the history references, since I'm a history nerd. But other than that, not seeing a whole lot of redeeming qualities here...
I figured out approximately how many books I likely have time left in my lifetime to read, and the number was frighteningly low. Summary: life is too short to read bad books or books you don't enjoy reading. I know lots of people can't stand to leave books unfinished though, so you are not alone in that. At least it is not a total waste: you can be in on discussions about the book, since it is for VF. It is always useful to have differences of opinion when discussing books, or anything really. It's how we learn the value of seeing things from another perspective.
Vanessa wrote: "I figured out approximately how many books I likely have time left in my lifetime to read, and the number was frighteningly low. Summary: life is too short to read bad books or books you don't enjoy reading..."Very true. Usually I don't have a problem dropping books I don't like, because like you said, life is short. But since I didn't read the last couple month's picks I'm personally trying to stick to this one a little longer just so I can say I tried. But I feel like I'm going to end up quitting this book if it doesn't get more interesting. So far, I don't care about the characters like I feel I should at the point I'm at in the story. I love the history in the book and the stuff Matthew has mentioned about the past, but everything else that's gone on so far just feels like a wet rag to me. Just kinda limp and blah. I find myself getting bored and irritated more than interested in what happens next.
The mystery of the Ashmole 782 feels like it should be bigger, more urgent, and maybe if I get further along it will be, but so far it's just this supposedly uber important tome that everyone says they want but no one actually actively does anything to get. Plus, Diana's refusal to use magic seems like a waste to me and also cliche. How many other urban fantasy/paranormal romance books out there have heroine's who have all this power and won't use it for some reason or another? And I haven't gotten to the parts where Matthew supposedly gets really possesive, but I'm starting to see hints of irrational thinking in regards to Diana and that's off-putting, especially since they haven't known each other long at the part I'm at. I think it's only been a few days by chapter 12, but then maybe I'm wrong. I'm having a hard time gauging how much time has passed since Diana and Matthew first met.
The mystery of Ashmole 782 is a very important thread through the whole trilogy, so if you were hoping for resolution on that by the end of this book, be aware that the mystery continues on. (Perhaps that's why Harkness isn't making it a front-and-center issue straight away.) I think in books with vampires and other immortal/long-lived beings you see a lot of that type of behavior that doesn't seem rational or believable after a few hours/days/months, because they generally ignore the passage of time as being meaningless for them. Sometimes the humans around them don't feel the same way, but Diana isn't just a garden variety human (if there is such a thing.) There is a lot of history behind what is going on between the witches and the vampires, and a lot more of that comes to light as you progress in the story.
Also: **(could be construed as a minor spoiler)**
There is an element of time travel in the second book of the series, so you can use that tidbit to inform your decision of whether to continue reading as well. Some people are interested in time travel, and some think it's played out or just plain don't like it.
I liked it enough that I will read the 2nd book in the future. There were some moments that seemed "required" by the genre, but I enjoyed the world-building, and hope that as the series progresses, we see it all come together. She does at least explain why Diana is so adverse to using her magic, as well as why the need for the rowing & running. I enjoyed that she was an intelligent, accomplished woman, she wasn't just obsessed with fashion. I also enjoyed the fact that she had no problem being single when the book started; so many novels have the heroine depressed about being alone, and it is refreshing to have someone comfortable in her life as she was choosing to live it.
My initial enjoyment is fading.I'm nearly halfway through, but I am rapidly getting fed up with Matthew's possessiveness of her. To the point where I actually want to slap him, vampire be damned. I'm not sure I can take another three hundred pages of it.
It's interesting - I never saw him as "possessive" but more as overly "protective" since he doesn't generally stop her doing what she wants or talking to whomever except when he feels it's dangerous. And she's in danger a lot so he's pretty much expected to be hovering and controlling. She'd be dead quickly without him I think.Sure, there's the usual, "You're mine," talk, but meh. Doesn't bother me, since he pretty much let's her boss him around and he takes her into all kinds of dangerous situations when she insists on going.
He does keep some secrets from her which gets annoying, but hey 1500 years of life as a secret vampire - dude's gonna have secrets.
I just started reading the book so I haven't formed an opinion about it yet. It is kinda slow right now but I'm going to keep reading.
Vanessa wrote: "I figured out approximately how many books I likely have time left in my lifetime to read, and the number was frighteningly low. Summary: life is too short to read bad books or books you don't enjo..."You're totally right. I'm about 350 pages in, and I'm going to take a step away and then come back, but I think I might have to just let it go. I have real problems with the way that the relationship is developing. Thinking about down the line, how they are going to function when at the very beginning, he's giving her commands, and she's invading his privacy and convincing herself it's alright. Plus, I just can't deal with all the sappiness. She's known the guy three weeks, doesn't even know how he feels about her, and is willing to risk the lives of the only family she has left without even thinking about it? It just feels very unhealthy to me on so many levels.
It may also be because, personally, I'm not looking for a romantic relationship where that person becomes my everything. So I have a hard time finding the appeal in relationships that ARE like that.
For anyone who did like it, looking from my point of view, is it worth it to finish? Is the worldbuilding/plot of the last 250 pages interesting, or am I more likely to be frustrated by Diana and Matthew?
Vanessa wrote: "I think in books with vampires and other immortal/long-lived beings you see a lot of that type of behavior that doesn't seem rational or believable after a few hours/days/months, because they generally ignore the passage of time as being meaningless for them. Sometimes the humans around them don't feel the same way, but Diana isn't just a garden variety human (if there is such a thing.) "I've always assumed that they wouldn't be clingy and want to move things along quickly because time is meaningless. A vampire would have a fantastic night with you and not call for 6 months because there's no urgency for them, they live forever. They should be careless with time not wanting to cram everything into a short period of time.
I liked both books, I liked the second one when they went back in time and yes there was a lot of name dropping but I think that was deliberate to get your head back into that century. What I didn't like is the cliff hanger endings, especially as I read the 1st two books before the 3rd one was out, so I was really annoyed for a while that I didn't know what happened. Now it's been so long I'll have to go back and re-read it to remember what was going on. Re Heather: The problem with vampires and time, to an extent they have all the time in the world but not if they love a mortal that doesn't have all that time. So they would have to fit into the life span of a mortal (or witch as it may be) and then as that person ages and they do not what a dilemma that creates for them... they would have to cram everything into a short period, and feel sad when it's over and they are alone again..
Brizo wrote: "I liked both books, I liked the second one when they went back in time and yes there was a lot of name dropping but I think that was deliberate to get your head back into that century. What I didn..."I know if I had lived that long, I'd get careless with time and forget how short-lived most people really are. Maybe they are more aware. Since most vampires are usually portrayed as outside (and often above) everyday human activities, I assumed they were less aware. There's a couple of series I've read that mention how hard it is for them to keep up with fads and trends which makes me think they sort of forget the passing of human time.
I'm just past the 300 page mark now and it did pick up a little after the first horse riding scene.This book alternates between being kind of interesting and kind of infuriating.
I am a little disheartened to know that the mystery of the manuscript is still another two giant books away from being resolved.
Jordan wrote: "For anyone who did like it, looking from my point of view, is it worth it to finish? Is the worldbuilding/plot of the last 250 pages interesting, or am I more likely to be frustrated by Diana and Matthew? ..."As I *didn't* like it, I'm not in the best position to advise. But the question is whether you can put up with getting to the end without resolution and being expected to buy another two books!
I was really enjoying the book and didn't understand why so many on here had a problem with it, but then I started to get really annoyed and then more and more angry at how poorly written it was starting around chapter 14. I almost gave up completely, but then I got to chapter 29 and it got good again, or at least, so far it's good again. It's as if it suddenly turned back into the book I had been enjoying when I started. That's not going to stop me from tearing it to shreds in my review on my blog, but at least I'm no longer readying myself to hurl the book across the room just to listen to the satisfying sound of it hitting the wall. I'm really glad I didn't buy the e-book.
I absolutely love this book! From the first time I read it like three years ago, I thought it would be perfect for Vaginal Fantasy!What I especially love about it is that it is sort of a love letter to academics and libraries. It makes me think of all of days of the Scoobies with Giles spending hours researching occult books on Buffy the Vampire Slayer and it makes the super-fan in me super happy!
It's sort of a paranormal romance for intellectuals which I really admire.
I have read all three books in this trilogy. This is the best of the books. I loved it. If you really dig it, you will get sucked into the storyline and want to finish the trilogy. I didn't feel this could be read as a stand alone title.
I have now finished the first book and liked it well enough to read the other two. I liked the academic/library setting and how the author payed attention to detail, e. g. some things that happen in the beginning of the book will come back later and play a more or less important role. (Compared to another book I'm currently reading, this book is a friggin' masterpiece in that department because the things they talk about is actually relevant for the rest of the story.) Matthew is a bit on the possessive side, which obviously will not appeal to all readers, though personally it didn't bother me. I didn't hate the characters but I never really felt a strong connection to them either. Ysabeau is really cool though. :P
Overall this is a 3 stars book for me, which kinda mean "neither good nor bad" in my rating system. I've read better but I've also read FAR worse than this.
I think I'm giving up on this book. I haven't listened to the audiobook in a week now and I'm much more interested in reading other books than trying to make myself continue this one. Maybe sometime later I'll pick it up again, but not this month.
You can tell the scientific/genetic discussions part of this book was really thought out. However that was the main thing I liked about this story. Diana was super annoying, I did like Matthew though I had no idea why he was so in love with her. She is just a Mary Sue who is made to seem really smart but does stupid things. It was irritating at times. The story seemed to go in many different directions. Almost as if plot bunnies just kept hopping around yet never really going anywhere until the very end. The ending did make me want to read Shadow of Night but I have yet to buy it.
OH christ, that review would have saved me so much time. This book is great for when I'm falling asleep because I can read 80 pages and not miss any plot
.
Should have known this was a series when there's just all this build/pointless info and just realized I'm 380 pgs in waiting for steamy lovin and there is no. steamy. lovin.
What else is Matthew for?
VF, why
#blindsidemarriage
I was vaguely amused by the reference in the second book to our friendly, clay golem from last month's book.“So long as you ignore the gossip coming from the Jewish quarter. One of their witches has made a creature from clay who prowls the streets at night.”
Surely it would require more than an ordinary spell to construct a creature from mud and set it in motion.
There's an explanation for the golem later on, third book maybe? Definitely not an ordinary spell. Or friendly much.
I just finished and have very neutral feelings about it. I didn't dislike it, but I didn't get sucked in enough to want to read the rest of the series. Honestly, the house was my favorite "character" but that could be because it reminded me a bit of House of Leaves.Is there ever some sort of point to her eating a ton every 10 pages? That girl's grocery expenses must have been insane between her constant hunger and her constant need for tea.
This selection seems pretty controversial (a lot don't seem to like it) but I think it's ok and it's kept be interested so far. I'm a bit over halfway through book one if anyone wants to gab about what's gone on thus far.Where I'm at, Matthew has just recently returned to Oxford while Diana is left at the homestead with Ysabeau and Marthe. Whatever shall become of our heroine?! *fainting spell*
I find the whole alchemy thing quite intriguing. August Strindberg was also obsessed with alchemy...
Katrina wrote: "I just finished and have very neutral feelings about it. I didn't dislike it, but I didn't get sucked in enough to want to read the rest of the series. Honestly, the house was my favorite "charac..."My feeling was that as she was starting to use her powers more, her body required more fuel to keep up with the extra energy expenditure, but I can't tell you why I thought that.
I thought this book was okay. I really enjoyed the beginning, which seemed to annoy some people. I liked the research and the rowing and the yoga. All that stuff made Diana feel like a real person to me and it definitely had a different feel from most books in this genre.Then Diana and Matthew fell in love and my enjoyment plummeted. Matthew turned all controlling and started talking about the darkness inside him and it just felt like every other vampire romance out there.
I still basically enjoyed it. The house was cool and Ashmole 782 was interesting. I wish she had condensed everything into one book though. There was too much extraneous b.s. that I didn't care about.
Jordan wrote: "It may also be because, personally, I'm not looking for a romantic relationship where that person becomes my everything. So I have a hard time finding the appeal in relationships that ARE like that."I think this is an issue I also have with the book. The relationship between Diana and Matthew just seemed creepy to me. It all went so fast and they are throwing around words like love, talking about having children, completely neglecting every one else in their life... One moment that really made me feel sick was when Matthew said he would kill his son in a heartbeat to save Diana. That's just not okay.
Another thing I was disappointed about in this book was the magic system. With Sword & Laser we read The Name of the Wind last month, and that has just the most wonderful thought-out magic. The magic in this book just seems all over the place.
Related to that, did Diana really have to be such a Mary Sue? She has all the magic powers a witch can have? I also kept imagining the author when reading about Diana. It is such wish fulfillment, I disliked reading it. It was just too obvious, too much.
Ashmole 782 could have been interesting, but nothing about it is resolved in the first book. Actually, nothing at all is resolved. For such a long book, that is quite the accomplishment.
There were some things I did like though. I enjoyed the descriptions of libraries and wine very much. (Can wine really taste like that? I'm used to cheap tiny bottles. Maybe I should learn more about wine if it can taste like that.) I also liked how she liked to eat a lot. It just made me smile. No dieting for Diana! She does enjoy things a lot, which I think is a good quality. She can be really enchanted by a nice tea, a good wine, a rare book,...
Overall though, of all the Vaginal Fantasy books, this is the one that appealed to me the least. I think it will stay in that position of the list for quite a long time.
Melissa wrote: "Jordan wrote: "It may also be because, personally, I'm not looking for a romantic relationship where that person becomes my everything. So I have a hard time finding the appeal in relationships tha..."I know a lot of people have said that they thought Diana was a bit of a Mary Sue and I think that is a valid criticism, but I have never really thought of her that way. I mean, she grew up without any talk of magic, having all of her powers literally bound up within her. Also she had an adrenaline disorder which made her afraid and or panicky all the time.
Before Ashmole 782, she lived a life of academic discipline probably in order to hide the pain and loneliness she felt as a result of loosing her parents. Also, I think that her exhaustive research provided her with answers which is something that she could not achieve in her own life.
I loved how all of the events in the book sort of woke her up to realize her full potential as a witch and as a person. This transformation definitely continues more in the second book and the third as well as she becomes more and more powerful.
I really enjoyed her journey and felt that even at the beginning of the book, she a well established, interesting character. I think part of it is that I love academics and I would have killed to do what she was doing at Oxford, but regardless I hope that explains why I like Diana so much!
Alexa wrote: "I think part of it is that I love academics and I would have killed to do what she was doing at Oxford, but regardless I hope that explains why I like Diana so much! "I agree with you on that. I actually liked how Diana's life sounded before she met Matthew. The adrenaline disorder was pretty interesting. Another thing that I liked is how when she played theatre, she started to become like the character she played, like her hair would just start to grow at an insane speed. I wish the book would have dealt more with things like that.
Reading about Deborah Harkness just adds more fire to the Mary Sue feeling for me though:
- Diana's looks are described to be very similar to Harkness.
- Harkness is a historian of magic and science - specialized in the period from 1500 to 1700 - with a special interest in alchemy. She has published books like John Dee's Conversations with Angels: Cabala, Alchemy and the End of Nature (1999) and The Jewel House: Elizabethan London and the Scientific Revolution (2007)
- She writes a wine blog, Good Wine Under $20. (I might have to look into this one. Here is the link for other people who are interested in this!)
These things could have added up to a good book, but I feel like she made the main character too much like herself, which seems awkward in a romance wish-fulfillment book, where she gives her character all the possible kinds of magic powers. I personally can't give her credit for writing a well established character when I get the feeling she just wrote about herself. Maybe I could have liked Diana if it didn't feel that way to me. I also really wished she wouldn't have focused so much on the romance, which I found very disappointing. Figuring that she wrote a non-fiction work on Elizabethan London makes me hope the second book in this series is more to my liking though! I hope she put a lot of her research into it, and focuses on that.
In the end though, I think I'd rather take one of her classes than read one of her fiction books. ("Professor Harkness teaches courses on early modern cultural and intellectual history, including the survey in early modern European history and upper-division undergraduate courses on the history of Tudor and Stuart England, the history of women, and the history of magic and science. In the future she hopes to offer courses on Renaissance Magic and Modern Popular Culture, on the History of London, and on the Experimental Life in Early Modern Europe." x)
I really like your description and thinking about Diana though, Alexa! :)
I think that is a really interesting thought that Diana's character is so similar to the author. Knowing that information, I actually think that makes Diana a more complex and interesting character. Honestly, the best characters in fiction are based off of real people. Most authors and creators usually cite childhood friends, family members, or co-workers as inspirations for their work. This technique typically makes their characters seem more complex and three-dimensional because they have a basis in reality that can be observed.
Since Diana is based off of a real person, then she seems more like a real person. She inhabits a lot of the qualities of the author which grounds her so she doesn't get lost in all of the magic, vampires and demons. I think it's great that we get a little piece of the author in Diana!
All the talk about Matthew smelling like cloves and cinnamon made me crave my cloves and cinnamon tea. I had a cup after basically every reference to it, so now I've almost emptied the tin reading this book haha :)
Alexa wrote: " I mean, she grew up without any talk of magic, having all of her powers literally bound up within her..."The growing up without any talk of magic just isn't true - she grew up in the witch community with every member of her family practicing, and she *does* use magic. In the first part of the book they make it sound like an act of will and control that she has refused to use her magic, and only occasionally lets it bust out when it's really terribly convenient. It's only later that they turn her into a tragic creature who has been prevented from using it.
Alicia wrote: "Alexa wrote: " I mean, she grew up without any talk of magic, having all of her powers literally bound up within her..."The growing up without any talk of magic just isn't true - she grew up in t..."
Well it is true, that she did somewhat use magic as young adult and that she was aware of the magic community, but she didn't really understand it or embrace it until she accidentally uncovered Ashmole 782.
What I meant was that Diana was not interested in magic and she didn't want to talk about it probably due to fear, after what happened to her parents, and shame, due to being "different" or "other." That is the essential part of the story, Diana coming to terms with her magical roots and coming into her power.
Melissa wrote: "All the talk about Matthew smelling like cloves and cinnamon made me crave my cloves and cinnamon tea. I had a cup after basically every reference to it, so now I've almost emptied the tin reading..."That's so funny that you said that! I think it's a combination of the description of Matthew's scent and all the library talk that makes me want some tea and scones while I read this!
Melissa wrote: Related to that, did Diana really have to be such a Mary Sue? She has all the magic powers a witch can have? I also kept imagining the author when reading about Diana. It is such wish fulfillment, I disliked reading it. It was just too obvious, too much.I felt this way, too. I think it would be very easy as an author (and most likely non-magical person) to say, "Oh, she has ALL THE POWERS EVER and that's why she's the protagonist!" This isn't the first time that an author has used a plot device like this, or something similar even, making that character "the one" and unique in whatever situation.
I think back to some of my favourite magical stories, specifically something like Harry Potter. He's the main protagonist in the stories, and he sometimes sucks at magic. Hermione is great at reading books and magic in theory, but struggles with some of the more practical aspects down the line. Ron is kind of a bumbler. And yet they're all powerful wizards when you get right down to it. Their flaws and strengths made them stronger together. To me, this ultimately makes them feel more well-rounded and more realistic because they struggle to be the best wizards they can be despite not being perfect in every wizardly aspect. Like we as humans are not good at everything all the time. At least I'm not. I don't know if that makes any sense, but that's why I didn't really feel invested in Diana and found her something of a Mary Sue.
Chapter 22 and I can't do no more, Captain! this for me is like a drawn out M&B from the 70s that crash landed in the middle of a fantasy novel. Matthew's temper tantrums and ordering Diana around drive me nuts. Although may be warranted at times because for someone so intelligent she's not very astute. it also seemed to me that the author wanted to pack in as much knowledge as she could about everything she knows. How many people know yoga, horse riding, are excellent academically, row, jog, have acting skills and whatever else I've forgotten. Then on top of that Diana has all the genetic combinations! But the clincher was the whole witches and vamps can't mix that me "for f#@$ saking!"I love the fact that it was set in the Bodelian. And the Ashmole intrigue. but that's about it. And it's not enough to keep me going
Super behind finishing this, but I decided to plug through instead of skipping to this month's book. It had me sucked in. While I don't find any of the characters to be particularly "strong", the mystery of the book really has me wondering what's going to happen. In fact, I find Diana to have very little backbone, and the relationship makes me want to roll my eyes, but I still enjoy it somehow. I went ahead and put a request in for the second one from my library in ebook. I'm intrigued.
My favorite character, though, was Ysaubeau, lol.
Katrina wrote: "Is there ever some sort of point to her eating a ton every 10 pages? That girl's grocery expenses must have been insane between her constant hunger and her constant need for tea." Her constant eating, which I felt was really focused on once they were with her family, made me keep feeling like they would soon figure out she was pregnant and that I had somehow missed the sexy times. lol
Victorian Diana? Did they get lost? They were on their way to Elizabethan England.