Why the appeal of action heroines?

[The Pirate Ghost]

SAbel... yeah, I knew that...SAbel, typo... (Mi dispaccio).

[Werner]

Seeley and Hugh, good points here! Your analysis of the dynamic in most male vs. female fights in the real world is pretty accurate, IMO; so my comment isn't to contradict it, but to add some more complexity to the picture.

The axiom that "women have 60% of the upper body strength of males" really means: if you plot the upper body strength levels of an entire population of males, and another one of females, as a line graph and then compare the two, both will be bell shaped with a big "average" bulge in the middle and the lines tapering down on each side of it to a much lower point at the ends, representing the very strong and very weak extremes; but the high peak of the women's curve will be at a point about 40% lower on the strength scale than the comparable peak on the men's curve. No argument there!

Individuals, though, can be at any point along the strength scale. Extremely strong males will tend to be stronger than extremely strong women; but the latter (who are strong either from natural physique or from body building, or often from a combination of the two) will tend to be stronger than weak or average males. And other individuals, of both sexes, may find their place anywhere along the spectrum; so while gender plays a role, it's not the case that ALL males are 40% stronger than ALL women.

Then too, while brawn is certainly a plus in any hand to hand, weaponless fight, it's not everything. An advantage of skill, especially in knowledge of martial arts, and factors like speed and agility, can offset it; so that it's not unimaginable that a smaller and weaker opponent (and that includes slightly-built males and even trained children, as well as women) can defeat a stronger and larger opponent. It's not the norm, to be sure --but it does happen, even in real-world situations.

[Seeley]

Werner wrote: "Seeley and Hugh, good points here! Your analysis of the dynamic in most male vs. female fights in the real world is pretty accurate, IMO; so my comment isn't to contradict it, but to add some more..."

Very true, Werner.

The study I found was an NIH study of athletes (late 80s) and measured weight lifting in all competitive categories. They lined up similar size and weight classes, thus a woman 5'8", 140 lbs could bench press 40% less than a man of the same size/weight.

For just that reason, my heroine stands just a shade under 6' (her weight is redacted for fear of the wrath of female readers). With the element of surprise, she can wallop the average couch potato male (Avg American is 5'10" flabby and overweight, Europeans are 5'9" and at fair condition & weight).

When she faces a larger male, she pulls a gun. No dummy, she :)

Peace, Seeley

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

My internet has not been friendly, so when I tried to post a comment earlier, I could not.

You pretty much took the words out of my mouth with your comments about martial arts training, Werner. Some disciplines are designed to exploit smaller body mass and agility over weight and height.

[The Pirate Ghost]

Seeley wrote: "Werner wrote: "Seeley and Hugh, good points here! Your analysis of the dynamic in most male vs. female fights in the real world is pretty accurate, IMO; so my comment isn't to contradict it, but t..."

Yeah, and you made a good choice. I remember back when the Women's Soccer Team one the World Cup when the US Hosted it. The entire team averaged about 140 lbs, (most of them were no where near six feet). Now, they were all workout freaks of nature. Mia Ham and (I think it was Foudy) ran two to three hours a day, not counting practices and crazy stuff like that. These girls were pure muscle.

And, as Letterman called the team, "Babe-o-rama."

@Werner- I completely get the axiom (right word?). Those stats from NIH also don't take into account things like, skill level. I have no doubt someone like Gina Corano or even more so, Chris Cyborg (who KOed her) could handle guys that would "break the curve" on that grading system. I think, that they would also have to learn different styles for fighting opponents as powerful as men, as opposed to women. Likely more creative grappling and a lot of "moving away from the power" (you know, the old trick of keeping your foot outside of the Southpaws to limit how much power he can bring with his left hand...that sort of thing).

And there is still the old "size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight" axiom. Case in point, my little brother (and I hope my mother isn't reading this) was a bit of a brawler in high school. Not that he fought a lot of fights, but, he was a little guy, 5'7", at his tallest 145 at his largest in High School (more like 135 most of the time).

I used to come across some guys (big guys) and ask, "What happened to your face?"

"Your little Brother." They'd answer. By default, and without deserving any of the rep, by virtue of being his "Big Brother" I went from being the 150 lbs weakling to being a "assumed to be bad-ass."

My little brother used the, the old "Jerry Clower" line of thinking. You know...

"There are these three bulls hanging out inside the fence. Then this truck drives up and the hydrolic lift gate comes down Pssssst... then they open the doors with a loud "Bang" and without waiting for the lift, this HUGE Brahma bull crashes out of his crate, leaps over the hydrolic lift and lands in the middle of the barnyard.

"Buuuuuu"....he was a bellerin' and a hollerin' ...pawin' at the ground. "Buuuaaaahhh!" Then he trotted around the yard, snortin' and tossing his head, he even charged at the tractor and... it backed down.

The oldest bull looks at the bull beside him and says "you know, I've been around a while. Maybe it's okay. I'll give him a couple of the cows in my harem. I can spare a few. No need to start any trouble."

The second bull nods adding, "Hell, I'll give him half of mine. No need to not be neighborly."

Just then the third bull crashes through the fence bellowing at the huge Brahma, snorttin, trottin' around with his tail cocked in the air, sightin' down his horns at the big monster. "Buaaahhhmmmm."


The other two bulls looked at him and said, "hey, just what are you doin'! That guy's going to kill you!'

The third bull looked at the other two and answered, "You know I'm a bull. I know I'm a bull. I just want to know for sure, that he knows I'm a bull!"


In my brother's case, it worked. Sometimes you just gotta let them know that your really going to fight, and, that's all it takes.

The opening fight in the movie "Haywire" is kind of like that. Gina Corano's character was ready to fight. The dude chasing her didn't count on it. (I thought that was a realistic fight scene, for the movies. (and no bull involved.)

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

Attitude can definitely be a factor in a fight. I have seen clients with multiple dogs and if you ask them who is the boss dog, it's almost always the smallest dog. Like the 10 lbs Chihuahua, even when the biggest dog might be a Rottweiler or Pit Bull or Labrador.

[Seeley]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Seeley wrote: "Werner wrote: "Seeley and Hugh, good points here! Your analysis of the dynamic in most male vs. female fights in the real world is pretty accurate, IMO; so my comment isn't to contr..."

Hugh, I'm impressed! You really know women in sports. I liked that scene in Haywire too. But that's why they have the Olympics because being bigger in stats on paper isn't what counts.

Peace, Seeley

[The Pirate Ghost]

Seeley wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Seeley wrote: "Werner wrote: "Seeley and Hugh, good points here! Your analysis of the dynamic in most male vs. female fights in the real world is pretty accurate, IMO; so my ..."

I can neither confirm nor deny that Brandi Chastain got my attention after that final goal in the World Cup Championship game.

[Seeley]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "I can neither confirm nor deny that Brandi Chastain ..."

LOL

Peace, Seeley

[The Pirate Ghost]

Of course, those women (why do we always call them "Girls?" We wouldn't call the loosing male soccer team "Boys" would we?) ... those women had a unique attitude that included a lot of knowledge that they were young attractive women, especially leading up to and just after that World Cup.

They have told some fun stories like when the prop-plane they were flying in lost a door flying over some third world country (funny story). They also seemed to understand that, though they were not really about being "sexy" women, they still played up to some things to further their sport, WOMEN's soccer. They were also top notch athletes and very tough. Mia Hamm was only the most prolific scorer in Soccer and played with broken ribs and a concussion (after taking a header off a metal rail ringing the field during play.

If i were thinking of drafting a non-military type female into the ranks of action adventure stars, that bunch is a good place to go look for possible candidates.

Beats the hell out of the East German Weightlifting Team.

(Edit-... I realize that that last statement may seems sexist, but, I point out, that nobody would go looking to the East German's Men's weight lifting team for a handsome, if rugged and scruffy, lead character either. Alessiev was a heroic figure in sports...not exactly a male sex symbol though).

[Billy]

I tend to write unrealistic stuff where the heroines are 85-100% as strong as the strongest men (flat out, not pound for pound...) but though it's mentioned above, I'd reiterate that even in reality some women are literally stronger than some men. I imagine Beth Phoenix the pro wrestler who lifted 2 men weighing a combined 400 lbs onto her shoulder at once, and Sara Del Rey who once flipped a 270 lb woman over her head after holding her up in the air while crouching awkwardly, are stronger than most average sized guys who doesn't work out extensively. Larger powerlifters like Becca Swanson, even more so.

Also not every woman is the same size IRL and there's no need for them to be so in fiction IMO, look at how well received George R.R. Martin's huge Brienne (who he's mentioned as being 6'6 and is described as ugly) is. Sure if you're going for a 'traditionally' sexy heroine the East German Weightlifting Team may not be the place to look, but there should be room for non-traditionally sexy MCs... like 6' 240 lb scar-covered female wrecking balls. :)

[Billy]

Seeley wrote: her weight is redacted for fear of the wrath of female readers

BTW, I'm doubtful many female readers would be angry about a heavier heroine - unless I'm interpreting this the wrong way and it's the opposite, in which case lol.

[The Pirate Ghost]

Billy wrote: "I tend to write unrealistic stuff where the heroines are 85-100% as strong as the strongest men (flat out, not pound for pound...) but though it's mentioned above, I'd reiterate that even in realit..."

To be clear, I was going for humor with that statement.

Truth be told, the heavyweight weightlifters aren't going to be the glamor king and queen of the prom here. Lower weight classes however, in both genders, may actially fit the sexy and powerful build of a modern hero or heroine.

And thise statement also fails to take personality into account. Physical beauty or lack of it has never had a role in being a bitch or A-hole. That's usually decided first, then they grow up and we find out what their like.

As for the realism vs. unrealism, most male heroes in books are more capable than most human beings. The question that comes to my mind is: Why is there a double standard? You can find people (Male and female readers) who reject a female heroine as unrealistic when she beats up one guy, but accept a male bookworm who takes Tae Kwan Do lessons on the side beating six trained killers in rapid succession. Maybe he lifts a lot of books a day?... fast learner...eats his vitamins?

The there's a malfunction with expectations. I tend to believe that this is getting better, but, it's kind of wrapped up in the same issues that keep women from getting equal pay for equal work (70 cents to every dollar a man makes). I find that generally, art reflects life, not the other way around.

and, for this discussion maybe more important...

do authors have a responsibility to fix this or is it their responsibility to write books with characters people identify with and read?
And have traditoinal publishing practices by major publishers changed the way this dynamic works/should work?

I mean, sure everyone wants equality as a concept, and everyone understands the inate unfairness of double standards, but, clearly women buy and read books where women behave closer to their stereo type in larger percentages than men buy books with action heroes that make serious challenges where stereotype is concerned.

Not only that, there is a lot that is debatable when it comes to what an accurate depiction of a female action hero should be like yet, even though male action heroes are actually more of a fictional construct than factual, few people question their "legitamacy" and when their we questioned realism of such things we usually attack the book on a larger or macro scale than the main hero (not always, of course).

So, what drives this double standard? (maybe that's not a great question for this thread?...I don't know.)

[Billy]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: Lower weight classes however, in both genders, may actially fit the sexy and powerful build of a modern hero or heroine.

Maybe this is more of different genres issue but I don't see why a hero or heroine should be limited to a certain 'sexy' build? Again mentioning Martin people seem to love Brienne perhaps in part because she is so different from the norm, in my view maybe too many writers have let the standards of traditional publishers for what constitutes an acceptable hero or heroine restrict them, when in fact actual readers might be more accepting of a hero outside the norm?

Again this might be a genre thing and maybe thriller or whatever readers are more gung-ho about sexy MCs.

[The Pirate Ghost]

Billy wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: Lower weight classes however, in both genders, may actially fit the sexy and powerful build of a modern hero or heroine.

Maybe this is more of different genres issue but I do..."

Look, I'm not saying that they have to be sexy, I just identify that with being the "Norm (Normal)" for somethign to have a "Norm" that suggests also that sometimes, things that are not normal happen and those are acceptable too.


Having said that, we still have the same issue of a double standard. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that an chunky male weight lifter as a hero is more likely than his female counterpart.

I'm not establishing that as a rule, I'm asking why and, to me, it's the same question, why the double standard?

as far as my personal tastes, I've enjoyed heroes and heroines from books, movies and tellevisions that come in all shapes and sizes. Again, I'm just commenting on an obvious norm... I'm not over ruling any exceptions to that norm as possibilities.

[Seeley]

Billy wrote: "BTW, I'm doubtful many female readers would be angry about a heavier heroine - unless I'm interpreting this the wrong w..."

Billy, that's what I thought. I described my heroine as 5'11", 150 lbs and not one single woman would even finish reading the book. This wasn't one female reader, or a romance writers group, this was 15 women from 4 continents and all thriller fans. My wife and I researched 5 famous heroines, from Stephanie Plum to Temperance Brennan, and found NONE of them were described in height & weight.

I deleted the dimensions and women loved the book. (But male readers started complaining that a woman couldn't do the things she did because of the weight differential -- you'll never please everyone.)

And note that the Olympics has three classes of female boxers: Feather, Light, and Middle. Nothing beyond Middle. And "Middleweight" means 165 Lbs and up. :)

Peace, Seeley

[Billy]

Seeley wrote: "Billy wrote: "BTW, I'm doubtful many female readers would be angry about a heavier heroine - unless I'm interpreting this the wrong w..."

Billy, that's what I thought. I described my heroine as 5'..."

Okay, I'm guessing this is a thriller genre thing since most of my beta readers have been women and none of them complained about my heroines who were huge (the one in my main series is 6' 240, and another in a standalone novel is 6'2 190). On LibraryThing the first book of the main series has a average 4.0 rating with 2 of the 4 reviews being a 4 and 5 star from women...

In my other released novel the heroine is described as short and stocky, I imagine her to be about 5'2 and 130 which is still pretty sturdy. 5'11 150 seems downright slim to me, I'm kind of shocked by the standards of thriller fans here. My Freya from my short story series is 5'7 150 and I've never imagined her as fat... well built but definitely not fat.

[Billy]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Billy wrote: "I, Curmudgeon wrote: Lower weight classes however, in both genders, may actially fit the sexy and powerful build of a modern hero or heroine.

Maybe this is more of different genres ..."

The norm of the heroes' look is based on the norm of what the overall society/media promotes as being attractive I'd say, and female characters are expected to conform than males because female attractiveness is linked more closely to body type it seems.

[The Pirate Ghost]

Billy wrote: " I'm kind of shocked by the standards of thriller fans here. My Freya from my short story series is 5'7 150 and I've never imagined her as fat... well built but definitely not fat."

I think it may be a cranial thickhness issue, or perhaps a promotional hemeroid thing.

Billy, I don't think anyone here has rejected your heroines, in what ever form you wrote them to be in or even suggested that they were unacceptable.

Stating that something is a "norm" is an observation the status quo, not rule, or even a suggestion that there is a rule, unwritten or otherwise, that excludes other possibilities. In fact, the tone of this discussion thread all along is about widening that norm to be more inclusive.

Nobody set a standard for anything. And, though I cannot speak for anyone but myself, the idea of how well your heroines work or don't work lies in your writing, not some unwritten standard that your making up because "you want that cross to bear, even if you have to build it yourself."

What I've been getting at all along is that this "Double Standard" of how we view male and female characters (of any stature) is not fair.

I really don't understnad how you translate that into the idea that "I (or we)" have some kind of belief that a heroine must be a certain way "Here."

It's also offensive to me to have my words twisted (or selectively ignored) and turned into the opposite of the point I've been trying to make. The Norm, should changed so that what is normal is both more realistic, more acceptable to readers (and whoever) and more inclusive of other possibilies than the Christmas Jones James Bond Girl concept that we can find on most book covers, in the lead on most TV shows and in most movies.

This idea that stating something is normal is some how saying that it should be so is not accurate. Normal is simply what you see most often.

So your books get 4.0 ratings and 5 star ratings from women, that's great. I'm actually lobbying for you here. Are you suggesting that your two heroines are "normal" (as in what you see most places) for this genre?

I'm not about to reject characters in a book I haven't read. Nor am I about to read a book, based on a sneaky promotional stir the pot gambit on a serious discussion threaad.

This discussion was never about "your characters" or "your Book" no matter how much you'd like that to be so.

[Billy]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Billy wrote: " I'm kind of shocked by the standards of thriller fans here. My Freya from my short story series is 5'7 150 and I've never imagined her as fat... well built but definitely not fat."

..."

I think you misinterpreted my post, I didn't mean 'here' as in in the group, I meant that I was surprised that female thriller fans would reject heavier heroines with the 'here' not actually referring to a specific place at all. I'm also not sure why you seem to think I'm being hostile to you when that last post wasn't even directed to you, but a reaction to Seeley's experience with a quote from him. I didn't even say anything to you other than to say where I think the norm comes from, and your response is that long post implying that accused you of something?

[Billy]

And geez Curmudgeon, I only gave details about my books and my experience with them in response to Seeley talking about his... so somebody else can post about their character being rejected by readers due to her size, and when I make a counterpoint about readers' reactions in a different genre, I'm being too promotional? WTH?

[The Pirate Ghost]

Billy wrote: "I imagine her to be about 5'2 and 130 which is still pretty sturdy. 5'11 150 seems downright slim to me, I'm kind of shocked by the standards of thriller fans here. "

Riiiiight. Sure you were. My bad. I guess there's no confusing me with a "thriller fan here" who has standards.

Sorry to blow up the thread, Werner, Seely.

I'm leaving it be...lettin' it lie (no rage quit, meaning, I'm still intending to participate in the group. I'm just done with this thread right now. Of course, feel free to ask me not to participate(Given my behavior here, that's not something I can argue with.))

[Billy]

You know when somebody quotes someone else, the rest of the post is usually a direct response to the quoted content..? So you interpret my use of 'thriller fans' to ONES IN THE GROUP even though my following example is of FEMALE READERS in contrast to those Selley mentioned? I made a whole different post that quoted you, wow.

And then you make a post accusing me of trying to backtrack, if I thought you were biased I would continue to address you directly as I did about the weightlifting team joke.

[Seeley]

Hugh, No problem, I thought I was borderlining it and almost didn't post but then...

Billy, my point is just like Hugh's: there is a double standard. My research points to women contributing a good deal to that judgment. 5'11" at 150 *is* slim (she's a soccer star, they sprint 6-8 miles/game). But that's not how female readers see it.

The average American woman is 5'6" and 135, about 10 lbs overweight. But the average American Woman's self image -- 5'10" at 98.

My lesson learned, following the lead of highly successful heroine writers like Janet Evanovich, Kathy Reichs, and Patricia Cornwell: don't say anything about her size and weight :)

Peace, Seeley

[Billy]

Seeley wrote: "Hugh, No problem, I thought I was borderlining it and almost didn't post but then...

Billy, my point is just like Hugh's: there is a double standard. My research points to women contributing a goo..."

Yeah there is a double standard but I think it varies from genre to genre, I mean stepping away from my own I'm guessing that in something like women's fiction female readers would be more likely sympathetic to a character carrying a little extra weight... it might that female thriller readers are more into stepping into the shoes of an idealized MC, hence wanting to imagine them as gorgeous and model thin.

Also according to female romance readers/writers on another board I frequent the heroines are often relatively plain or even a little chunky and self-conscious in romance, it's the men who are idealized - so again a genre issue.

[Werner]

Hugh, your apology is accepted! Sorry I've been offline for the last several hours (I'm at work, and now on my meal break). I've gone back over the posts above, and I think what we have is a case of misinterpreting Billy's comments as an attack that wasn't intended --and, of course, we're all apt to react defensively when we believe we're being attacked. I'm sure none of us want you to stop sharing your insights, on this thread or in the group generally!

Seely and Billy, all Goodreaders who write sometimes draw examples from their own work in comments on a discussion thread, where they're relevant (I know I do) --not as a sneaky way of doing self-promotion (I didn't take any of your posts that way), but because our own work and experience as writers is something we're familiar with and that comes readily to mind. That's different from shoe-horning in references to our work where they aren't relevant, and I think Hugh's taking (at the time) some comments that way was just an innocent misunderstanding.

As I see it, Hugh, Seeley, Billy and I have all been contributing towards a consensus, with which all four of us are actually pretty much in agreement: that real-life women, on average, aren't as big and strong as males, while there are exceptions to that; that both female action characters who reflect the physical norm for their gender and those who exceed it are legitimate types to portray in fiction, depending on the author's purposes; and that readers' reactions to the physical size and build of female characters is a complex thing that's influenced by cultural standards of beauty (and often involves a double standard for the sexes as to how important looks are) and by the gender of the reader, and can vary from genre to genre. (Obviously, it varies by individual reader, too! I personally don't see any conflict between the concepts "attractive woman" and "tall, strong woman," but there are certainly both males and females who do.) And I think we all agree that depicting average female physical performance in fiction doesn't deny that above average performance is possible; and agree that recognizing that some ideas about body image, etc. are prevalent doesn't mean we endorse all of them.

Hope this helps to demonstrate that we're all pretty much on the same page, and all friends! It occurs to me that some of the discussion about action heroines' looks might bear on issues that also get discussed over on our "Action heroine fiction/drama/iconogaphy --sexual exploitation of women?" thread (which was created to critique the idea that the whole action-female motif is really a sinister way of objectifying women and reducing them to sexual chattels). Some of you might want to check that thread out as well.

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

I wanted to speak to the description of height and weight. I think we all agree that this is a touchy subject for women because most women feel that they are far from perfect in that regard. I have a friend who gets tired of reading about six foot tall blonds who are twenty, because she's shorter, curvier and older. I don't like when a heroine is called plus sized when if the author states her size at 8, which is not really plus sized. I think that it might be safer not to include how much a heroine weighs if necessarily, if your goal is to attract women readers. But on the other hand, I have read a good amount of action books and it's standard to describe the hero's height and weight. I think you said it when when you said, you can't please everyone.

I am all for diversity in shape,sizes and colors in books. My big pet peeve is a lack of racial diversity in books. I don't get too hung up on body size of a character unless it is hooked to a judgmental term like fat at 125 lbs, which is not really fat unless you're 4 foot 8. I haven't read the GRRM books yet, but I love the show, and Brienne rocks! Can't wait to meet her in the books.

[Mike (the Paladin)]

I may have said this before but I generally like a good action book. Whether the protagonist is male or female if they are written well I like them. There are female protagonists that are among my favorite characters in my favorite books (anyone here who knows me has probably read how much I like The Deed of Paksenarrion). I suppose because I like fantasy lit. many of these are in fantasy books...Green rider series, Lisa Shearin's Raine Benares books for example. There are of course others. My point though is that I like a female protagonist for the same reasons I like a male protagonist. Sometimes the fact of her "femaleness" enters into that sometimes not.

[Seeley]

Lady Danielle aka The Book Huntress wrote: "I wanted to speak to the description of height and weight. I think we all agree that this is a touchy subject for women because most women feel that they are far from perfect in that regard. I hav..."

I'm with you on racial diversity and I've learned my lesson on weight discussions :) But 6 foot blonds are in big demand. Jack Reacher is 6'5" and 230 (or 6'4" and 210, depending on which book you read) because people like tall heroes regardless of gender.

Peace, Seeley

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

I guess my friend is an outlier, because she's definitely fed up with the six foot blonde heroine invasion.:)

[Billy]

Brienne is more than 6' and blonde... probably doesn't fall into the stereotype though. :D

[Danielle The Book Huntress]

No, Brienne doesn't qualify. Speaking of gorgeous model types right now.

[Billy]

On the subject of hair color, they do also say there is a much greater proportion of redheads in fantasy than in real life. :P

[The Pirate Ghost]

Billy wrote: "On the subject of hair color, they do also say there is a much greater proportion of redheads in fantasy than in real life. :P"

Yes, there certainly is. I Agree completely with that. The Firey Redheaded Princess seems to show up a lot. Which is interesting because, at least in the US, I think someone figured that only 3 out of every 100 people have read hair.

[Seeley]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "Billy wrote: "On the subject of hair color, they do also say there is a much greater proportion of redheads in fantasy than in real life. :P"

Yes, there certainly is. I Agree completely with that..."

I think the redhead phenom is due to the redheaded-stepchild syndrome. Writers are urged to make something sympathetic about the character (one famous movie director urged his writers to "give 'em a limp or an eye patch"). The redhead is how you avoid disfiguring a female and still achieve a small amount of sympathy. Plus you have the fiery-redhead expectation that comes from who-knows-where.

Personally, I think redheads are cliche. I thought long and hard about my heroine: strawberry blonde, auburn, raven-haired, etc and ended up with dishwater blonde (because that's what most born-blondes are) but never spelled it out.

Peace, Seeley

[Werner]

Another reason for the relative prevalence of redheads in fantasy may be the popularity of Celtic (or Celtic-similar) backgrounds in some types of fantasy. (Lloyd Alexander started that ball rolling with his Prydain Chronicles, but many other writers have followed along the trail.) Among Celtic populations, of course, red hair is much more common than it is in the general U.S. population. (Mind you, I haven't done any study of how many Celtic fantasy characters are redhaired!)

[Mike (the Paladin)]

We're all side stepping an obvious but somewhat annoying reason (at least to some) and that's that many men like or have a weakness for red heads. That's not a bad thing and I won't try to come up with reasons, but that gives the book a sales boost with some people.

I know that's not really PC but it is a factor. Just thought that we should be able to talk in the open. If my mentioning this bothers anyone, sorry.

[The Pirate Ghost]

According to Wikipedia...yeah, I know, could be a better source... only about 10% of Northwestern Europeans have red hair. Scotland tops the list with 13 %.

So, at best we're talking about 1 out of 8 or 9, not so crazy as 3 out of one hundred (certainly enough to notice as an ethnic community trend) but also still generally rare. The classic Celtic inspired Princess with red hair and green eyes is even less common. Only about 33% of red heads have green eyes. So that would be about 4 percent in Northwestern Europe or 1 out of every 25.

I think it's the symbol of fire (heat, anger, spirit, spunk) coupled with human facination of rare and beautiful people and the fact that having red hair and green eyes (or even just red hair) makes the classic epic fantasy Lady unique in any world.

Uniqueness helps, but there are lots of ways to go with that without being red haired. I can come up with a couple of reasons that sales get boosted, but, other than people like unique beauty, the other reasons tend to be seated in ethnic bias or maybe passive ethnic bias. There is only one ethnic group that will have red hair. Then again, that's the ethnic group from Northwestern Europe who dominate the region so... discussion could get messy, and, it may be a totally unnecessary issue, under the circumstances.

If your writing a medieval fantasy, inspired by the ancient (or medieval) Celtic world, going with them who live there is not necessarily an expression of bias... now, throw in the boost in sales Mike mentioned, and this goes another direction. But that bias is on the consumer group, not so much the author, or genre.

Publisher might have some cupability, though, where this kind of passive bias is frustrating and can lead to unfair exclusion other groups, publishers have a lock on being able to pick what's onthe shelves. Consumers can only buy what's on the shelves.

and, since I don't hear a public ourage over red hair, this may be Hugh's PC Tempest in a teapot...but I'm generally pretty good at overanalyzing issues. Or another way to look at it might be, nobody worries about fair skined celtic pricesses with green eyes and red hair, no matter how many of them there are. However, some groups have been unfairly excluded from being the feature character of stories and, therefore, on the cover to be seen. How much of this is something that anyone has control over is debatable, and, instead of the issue being "red hair" it's about inclusion (or exclusion) for readers who wish main characters that they can identify with, and relate to.

[Krisi]

Another possible reason for the prevalence of redheaded heorines is that in art, especially in Romanticism but not only, red hair has been linked to characters seen as passionate, uncoventional, "ahead of their time," strong and, in some cases, otherworldly or supernatural - not all of them female, either. Venus (Aphrodite), Isolde(Yseult), and the Lady of Shalott are a few examples from Romanticism, but also many angels are portrayed with red hair, as have been Jesus and St. John the Evangelist.

[Mike (the Paladin)]

True the very fact of redheads being a smaller percentage of the population can set a character apart from the first.

[Krisi]

I agree, Mike. Because it is, as you and Werner mentioned, a rarer genetic variant, the physical rarity itself has caused many to attribute personality/character extremes, both good and bad, to those with an uncommon physical trait. I imagine seeing it done frequently in art and literature over the centuries had only ingrained that idea more into people's imaginations, besides the fact that it's a normal aspect of human nature for people to think that what makes someone stand out physically will also translate to a stand-out personality.

[Seeley]

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "We're all side stepping an obvious but somewhat annoying reason (at least to some) and that's that many men like or have a weakness for red heads. That's not a bad thing and I won't try to come up ..."

You're right about that. In the early movie days, the loose-woman was always a redhead. So that explains men's desire for them :)

Peace, Seeley

[Seeley]

I, Curmudgeon wrote: "According to Wikipedia...yeah, I know, could be a better source... only about 10% of Northwestern Europeans have red hair. Scotland tops the list with 13 %.

So, at best we're talking about 1 out ..."

Keep in mind that most "gingers" turn darker as they get older. My daughter's first soccer coach was a ginger Scott but he turned dark brown over the course of a season. Same happened to my father. I always thought of him as dark brown but his sister called him carrot and swore he was bright red until his late twenties.

So your original estimate might be more accurate than you thought.

Peace, Seeley

[Mike (the Paladin)]

Not sure that's the only reason????? Maybe just that a difference stands out.

[Krisi]

Although I certainly can't speak for men, I'd also have to question the loose woman theory as the only reason. First, because I'd think not all men are impressed with loose women, but also, it seems like it leaves the question: why are the loose women often portrayed by redheads, if redheads only make up 1-2% of the population. ;) So it would seem the chicken before the egg (or vice versa) in this case is that people's perceptions of hair color dictating personality - fiery, wild, passionate - is what caused writers/directors to choose redheads for the part.

[Mike (the Paladin)]

They also go gray, LOL. The Tandy Leather place where I get my supplies is run by a man who had red hair, though it's gray now. When someone with red hair comes in he identifies with them. LOL.

[Mike (the Paladin)]

Again I think the reverse is true. Many men find women with red hair especially attractive. So, when looking for an actress to play a femme fatale they call Rita Hayworth and later Ann Margret. It's because they fit the fantasy not the other way around. It's life, human nature. We could turn that and talk about the "bad boy" appeal that writers amd movie makers (etc.) use because so many women seem to find it appealing. Just human nature.

Old joke:

Why do men date blondes?

Because all the Redheads are taken.

I don't know how far back that goes but as noted it's an old joke.

[Werner]

I'm taking Billy's word for the relatively greater incidence of red-haired females in fantasy fiction than in real life, because truth to tell, I never paid much systematic attention to hair color trends in any genre that I read (and I can't immediately call to mind any red-haired fantasy heroines from my personal reading in the genre, though maybe I would if I tried harder to rack my brain!). None come to mind from other genres, either, except for Anne Shirley in the Anne of Green Gables books. (She wasn't an action heroine type, but she could break a slate over a guy's head when he needed it. :-) )

Mike, I wasn't consciously avoiding the idea that some male readers particularly like red hair on a woman; I'd just honestly never heard it, though I'd heard the famous cliche' that "gentlemen prefer blondes!" My guess is that in reality, individual males are probably all over the map in their personal preferences as to ideals of female beauty, because all of us are unique --I'm personally partial to very dark hair (like my wife's --though I had that preference even before we met), but I've seen women I considered very lovely who had other hair colors as well, and it's not a big issue with me. We've touched on the role of female attractiveness is our appreciation of action heroines before, on another thread, but my opinion is that factoring that in isn't necessarily unhealthy or disrespectful to women. Many of us guy fans tend to see the personal qualities of action heroines --courage, strength (moral as well as physical), commitment to justice, etc.-- as attractive in every way, and that shapes how we visualize them physically from reading a text; or if they're pictured, we tend to notice the physical qualities we see as attractive. That only becomes demeaning and unhealthy, I think, if we subordinate personal qualities to physical looks and make the latter more important to us, or if we set up false standards of beauty that exclude people who don't look a certain way (that relates to Hugh's point!), or if we treat good looks as an excuse for predatory sexual attitudes and actions. But if we're admiring a lady's looks in the right perspective and with a respectful attitude, I don't think she'd be offended by it, any more than a male would be offended to hear that a female thought he's handsome. (After all, there's a reason why all of us use deodorant, cut our hair, clean our nails, wear clean clothes that fit, etc. --ALL of us want to look our best and have our appearance appreciated; it's a normal human istinct.)

Non-white, non-Anglo main characters have been, as Hugh indicated, relatively rare in action-heroine fiction. I like to think that this isn't caused by deliberate racism as much as by the fact that most genre writers are white, and tend to think that most of the fans they're writing for are white, too; and by the related fact that it's hard for many authors to put themselves into the head of a protagonist who has a background drastically different from their own, and make the portrayal believable. But there are some notable exceptions: Robert E. Howard's Belit, Charles R. Saunders Dossouye, Les Savage's Hispanic outlaw heroine Senorita Scorpion, and Faith Hunter's Jane Yellowrock come to mind. I'd like to see more heroines in that mold; it would enrich the genre, and remind us that heroic and admirable qualities come in all colors!

[Krisi]

Mike, I thought I was actually agreeing with your post, but I'm not sure now because the comments seem to be posting out of order for me. I didn't see I,Curmudgeon's comment until four posts after my first post. But, I was only trying to say that I didn't think men (or all men, maybe) were attracted to redheads because they've played loose women or femme fatales, but that redheads are chosen to play femme fatales because men find them attractive due to fact that the rarity of red hair makes them stand out and that they're sometimes chosen to play loose women because of a long-standing perception that redheads are more passionate, violatile, or fiery of personality than other women. Besides redheads being linked on the positive side to the celestial or supernatural, on the negative they've also been linked to witchcraft, looseness and bad tempers, predominantly, I think, because red as a color has been linked to all those good and bad things.