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Timon Of Athens, Act 4, June 12
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Candy
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Jun 11, 2019 03:09PM
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Yes I know that Timon's of Athens. Though in act 4 we find that he's moved out of town.
So to get the ball rolling for Act 4. Timon's opening rant, a proper tome to the idea of misanthropy is wonderfully, or disturbingly, over the top. Or is it? What truths does he speak. Is there a hidden call to revolution? Or, nevertheless, is he actually raging about his own naivete, his own inability to deal the complex reality of human existence? He purports to hate Athens and all Athenians. And so all humans too?
Act 4 is a long one and I've read through only the first 3 scenes.
More input from me tomorrow after I get some sleep. Anyone else got some thoughts to share about the authenticity of misanthropy? Or anything else Timony?
Just read his rant, James. Who knows but his speech may be a disguised call for revolt? 'Lust and liberty Creep n the mind and marrows of our youth.' That bit sounds quite a good idea, anyway.,but not the next line. I suppose we shall see if he agrees with Apemantus. I assume he will meet with Alcibades. Off to read Scene II now. Welcome back, Candy.
Lucinda wrote: "Just read his rant, James. Who knows but his speech may be a disguised call for revolt? 'Lust and liberty Creep n the mind and marrows of our youth.' That bit sounds quite a good idea, anyway.,but ..."Aye, maybe rant could be seen as dangerous incitement to rebelion in Shakespeare's time - perhaps why there is little known of performances of this play at the time.
And yes Timon and Alcibiades meet outside Timon's cave and the event turns misogynistic with Timon going on about 'whores'.
I'm thinking of pop stars living the rich and crazy life with many hangers on and party people. When the money runs out so do the 'friends', and for some pop stars, they they lose their sanity and withdraw from the world. An analogy to Timon?
Mod
And I also think that part of this portrayal is an excellent study of what makes a terrorist. Nihilism. Disenfranchisement. Alienation.
(not religions silly rabbits)
Act 4 is like a terrible bomb dropped on us...who could have seen that coming???!!! I did not.
In fact, I was scratching my head most of the first three sparse Acts. I thought maybe Shakespeare had done what many writers do....write the ending first, then go back and write the beginning...only it seemed Shakespeare didn't go back and write the beginning.
Now whether or t this play is "finished" or "complete" seems moot, at least for me, it is moot. There is enough of a meaty Act 4 to explore what is going on here.
I thought the lack of femaeles might have been significant and the way I take that now...is that this play is about friendship. Friendship within a totalitarian/terrorist state like Elizabeths England. And although politics is a part of the story...or should I say setting...politics and economics is not the driving force. They are the structure that is surrounding relationships. What do relationships look like from Timons view of the society?
"Excellent! Your lordship's a goodly villain. The
devil knew not what he did when he made man
politic; he crossed himself by 't: and I cannot
think but, in the end, the villainies of man will
set him clear. How fairly this lord strives to
appear foul! takes virtuous copies to be wicked,
like those that under hot ardent zeal would set
whole realms on fire: Of such a nature is his
politic love."
Terrorism, or in this case, nihilism of Timons...happens when people feel disenfranchised from community. That is how people can be adopted into doing violent actions because they experience comfort and friendship in groups who teach them ideologies, dogmas while care-giving them....then that is a chance to inject a violent act to balance injustice.
As long as we keep labeling terrorism as a religious emergent act we won't be able to change course. We need t learn it is from alienation from a community.
I thought this was pretty cool poetry...
"As the moon does, by wanting light to give:
But then renew I could not, like the moon;
There were no suns to borrow of."
I think Timon's speeches are absolutely incredible. I also think this is a crazy joke of a story...of suffering...of seeking friendship.
If Timons made a mistake it wasn't of being generous it's interpreting generosity with material goods. Real friendship grows from generosity of spirit...sometimes symbolized by gifts. And another mistake Timons made...was giving not unconditionally but with expectations. When we give a gift...it's a gift with no expectation.
So really, in some ways it is also Timons who was not a good friend. He gave by assuming he owned someone's loyalty. Loyalty, is also something that is not materialistic but is existing in the spirit not in the material world.
So there is an extreme portrait of intangible, indescribable values of humanity being projected onto material things. Justice, loyalty, friendship, love, honour are only tangible in poetry and art....and the heart...they do not exist anywhere else in the material world or material things.
As ever, this is a fascinating discussion. Many thanks to James for keeping it going. Those comments are particularly astute, Candy.I wasn't quite fair to servants, as most of Timon's seem to be more or less decent people. I did think that scene where the Steward shares out the gold quite touching:
'No one world more;
Now we part rich in sorrow, parting poor.'
I am only halfway through Scene III.
Now Timon fnds gold and it gives him no pleasure. We at last have some women with lines, when Alc. comes in with Phry. and Tam, but they are hardly elevating.
I always thought that a Ancient Greek warrior's concubines wouldn't have been 'whores' in the normal way, but had been given as war prizes to the warrior. These, however, are presented as money grabbing mercanaries. Timon says of Phry.:
'This fell whore of thine,
Hath in her more destruction than they sword,
For all her cherbuin look.'
Unfortunately, as he gives them gold, urging them to take destructiveness to ridiculous extrremes, they don't care what he thinks of their characters.
Now Apem. turns up...
Candy wrote: "I thought a similar scenario James...poor Whitney Houston, for example. The doctors are licensed drug dealers (to Prince and Jackson, Anna Nicole Smith) and everyone around them is "yes man" and su..."Candy, from my research, the story of Timon is a fairly famous tale from antiquity and one that was well know during the time of Mark Anthony and Julius Caesar.
Shakespeare/Middleton generally stick to the story but with a few modifications. I didn't realise this myself till around Act 3.
What I've seen reported is that a translation of Plutarch's Timon of Athens , by William Painter in his Palace of Pleasures is the basis for this play.
The Palace of Pleasures was first published in the mid 1500s, before Shakespeare was born, and it was popular, going to 6 editions. I think it may the first book of stories published in the english language. Three other story lines for Shakespeare plays are taken from stories in this book.
Lucinda wrote: "As ever, this is a fascinating discussion. Many thanks to James for keeping it going. Those comments are particularly astute, Candy.I wasn't quite fair to servants, as most of Timon's seem to be m..."
I hate this it bit with all the 'whores!' talk. I love Apemantus. He's the man!
Timon and Alcibiades talking in the early part of the very long scene 3 (act 4). Timon: warr'st thou against Athens?
Alcib.: Ay, Timon, with good cause.
When Timon realises that Alcibiades could put Athens to the sword he offers his gold to help the cause.
Alcibiades replies., " I'll take the gold thou givest me, Not all thy counsel".
Mod
I'm surprised we haven't addressed the gold in this play yet!
For Elizabethan Occult Philosophers like Shakespeare gold has significance. The word gold is in this play more than any other of his works, five times as many. 25 times!
We haven't touched on the alchemical significance of this play yet....?
What are the chances of Timon randomly rooting for food and finding gold? I find this suggest some ordainment, some magical fate of Timons. And aligns him with philosopher kings and royalty...and the mage.
I also thought it's interesting that Timon means honour or esteem....and semi-relates to the word testimony
Mod
Is it possible there is a hint of Jared Diamond's theories here from GUNS, GERMS AND STEEL? (that the people who live abundantly, conquering other lands and creating a dominant economic power were able to do so not because they were superior but because their geography gave them an upper hand)
Timon's money came from a feudal past of colonialism, plantations sort of wealth ...and here he is being so generous with funds he never actually worked his own hands to attain. We have workers at the beginning of the play, Merchant, Poet, Painter who live by their own wits.
Perhaps there is a sense of that "property" came from the land and regular people it was never a gift in the first place? It was going back to original "owners"...the people who use the means?
Timon just happened to be a lord, and rich person...sharing possessions his family acquired from ordinary people....and he just happened to be lucky and find gold? A connection by Shakespeare perhaps?
Just finished Act IV. Of course, about the gold, Candy. I should have thought of that.
The exchanges between Timon and his visitors struck me as grotesque dark comedy rather than anything.
The exchange of abuse between Apemantes and Timon descends to name calling:
'Apem: Would thou wouldst burst
Tim: Away, thou tedous rogue, I am sorry I shall lose a stone by thee.
Apem: Beast!
Tim: Slave!
Apem: Toad!
Tim: Rogue! Rogue! Rogue!'
I supose if Apemantes is indignant that Timon spurns his act of charity.
The one with the 'bandetti' seemed to border on farce, with them calling themselves soldiers. I pictured them as being rather like the comic brigands in 'Two Gentlemen of Verona', particularly when they announce in a chorus 'We are not thieves, but men that much do want.'
A brief respite from all this is given by the encounter with the Steward before the poet and painter behave much as might be expected. It is odd really that the Steward takes the money, given the conditions which Timon attaches to his accepting the gift. Is that more evidence of places Shakespeare would have return to edit, had he kept on with it (assuming that H J Oliver is right and this is a draft play by the man himself).
At least Timon doesn't suspect the motives of the steward.
Candy wrote: "I was thinking about Timon just finding this gold. And how lucky he was to find it. I started thinking back....how did Timon get so rich in the first place? He is a lord so he must have inherited m..."Hi Candy. I've arrived with my Archaeologist hat on today. I know a bout finding gold and 'coin hoards' buried in the countryside, often in fields. In the original Plutarch story Timon is working as a laborer in the fields and finds the riches. So, coin hoards from the roman period in Britain are still being found, often by chance and also by metal detectorists on the hunt. A find in May of this year has been reported to be the largest find ever.
People in the 'olden' days would hide their precious items, money and gold, in times of human strife often by burying them in the ground. People were killed with the knowledge of the burial location and people also forgot where the lucre was buried, and for the past 2000-3000 years, all across Europe, the Med and the Middle East people have been accidentally discovering gold and riches in their field and countryside. This would have been know of in Shakespeare's time I believe.
For certain Timon was a fortunate in terms of his access to material wealth due to his birth but he seems to have also not been playing with a full deck as the saying goes; as regards to what he did with it.
So he in his destitute and angry state finds gold in the dirt while n digging for roots to eat.
I think that he might have been seeking the 'gold' of understanding by removing himself from society and living as he would see it, like a beast. Surely he was hoping for some redemption? Maybe not. Maybe not to assume that.
But,I would contend that he is 'aping' Apemantus in his 'living like a dog', but he is not doing a very good job of it. The dialogue between Apemantus and Timon could be the most revealing of the play. But now i must go. will return to expand. So much to talk a bout in Act 4 (and not so much as far as I can see looking ahead, in Act 5.) Hasta pronto amigos - by your leave!
Athens wealth came from mining silver.http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~lox...
Mining in Ancient Greece.
https://www.miningreece.com/mining-gr...
Hi Tim. Have you been reading the play from the beginning? What do you think?
JamesD wrote: "Hi Tim. Have you been reading the play from the beginning? What do you think?"I have been reading from the beginning. The play is very male oriented. For all the generosity the wealthy citizens are competitive. Timon thinks he is surrounded by friends as a substitute for a family. In reality the other citizens see generosity as spreading influence ,status and power. Once the gold runs out the other citizens simply move on. Timon goes off to sulk in the woods. There is something child like about Timon. He goes from the extreme of loving everybody to loving no one.
Tim wrote: "JamesD wrote: "Hi Tim. Have you been reading the play from the beginning? What do you think?"I have been reading from the beginning. The play is very male oriented. For all the generosity the wea..."
Yes Timon is acting like a lover who discovers that his love does not really love him. We have all seen friends or experienced ourselves the bitterness at being deceived; the anger and rage - the hate that can be expressed and felt.
For dramatic purposes Timon's reaction to his being rejected by his friends (except for Alcibiades, Flavius his steward, all his servants and Apemantus who sees in him (my opinion) a brother, is extreme.
But for the story line to hold he must find the Gold under abject circumstances and reject using it except where it will help his revenge against Athens (but also to make life comfortable for Flavius his loyal servant who he no longer personally needs).
Candy flagged up how often the word gold is used in this play and I think this is an essential point (though no one talks of gold as such till the 4th Act I think. Shakespeare/Middleton are riding along with what must (probably is) Plutarch's theme that Gold has bad effects on humans; like green kryptonite has on Superman, gold weakens humans, not physically but in their morals.
Apemantus sees this right from the beginning of the play. He sees the insincerity of Timon's guests an is unstinting in his criticisms of them and of what timon is doing.
I mention before that Apemantus is an aping of Diogenes the cynic who chose to live like a dog rather than like regular Athenians. His philosophy of Cynicism lived on in Athens for hundreds of years and throughout that time had many proponents.
So, Timon gives up on the Athenian crowd and goes up country to outdo Apemantus by living in a cave and scorning all human society. What I like are the debates between Timon and Apemantus. they are so much alike in thinking by Act 4, and yet they are different and this is what is interesting and thought provoking.
Mod
This is a recap of the show here...almost nothing happens, except we learn a lot about camaraderie, childhood obsessions, following one's dreams, history, oral traditions, the Knights Templar, and Canadian rules for disrupting, or not, the earth. I'm addicted LOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmswo...
When it comes to alchemy and old, the philosopher's and Illuninati were not just trying to make money. As you hint in earlier post James D, turning lead into gold is a metaphor ultimately. The human is lead...base, crude and unenlightened. It is the mind and spirit within humans that the philosopher hopes to transform into gold. The philosophers stories are about finding the gold within human traditions and study of nature as well.
I have been rather surprised and fascinated by this story.
I agree that Timon is seeming to not be playing with a full deck. He does not learn how to look at relationships and love as relying on "magic". The magic of unconditional sharing and giving. If he does not know love, why does he expect the other people in his community to know he is sharing love and friendship with him?
"Action has meaning only in relationship and without understanding relationship, action on any level will only breed conflict. The understanding of relationship is infinitely more important than the search for any plan of action." J. Krisnamurti
"The purpose of relationship
The real purpose of relationship. So what is the purpose of a relationship? It is not as some suggest to find your soul mate and live happily with them ever after. It is not a walk towards the flowery fields of nuptial bliss forever after designed to help us forget ourselves and become a family as the end goal. The purpose of a relationship is to help us become conscious of who we are, to help us learn to face our fears and move through them. Do you think you can be in a relationship with someone without getting to meet your sad, hurt child and theirs? If you do, you may be in for disappointment, conflict and unresolved upset. The purpose of a relationship is not to love and be loved, because we are not sure how to do either. The purpose of a relationship is to learn how to love and be loved. And how do we learn? By making mistakes. By learning how to take responsibility instead of blaming another. Relationship is about discovering who we are by looking into the mirror provided by a partner. Now, that sounds loft and dignified. But when we are triggered by each other, if falls shy of dignified.
One thing I can assure you is that if you are not in touch with your shadow when you go into a relationship, your partner will show it to you quickly enough. Of course, your shadow is not your real self. But you can not find your real self as long as you are acting like a hurt child or a victim of circumstance. So you have to come face to face with your shadow. You have to see the fears, anger, insecurities and lack worthiness that hold you back. Your partner, no matter who he or she is, is always uniquely skilled at showing you your weaknesses.
The purpose of relationship is to learn how to love and to learn how to be loved." Paul Ferrea
Mod
So there is some kind of observation abut this treatment of humans as their value. Timon seems to have built relationships on buying people. Perhaps he didn't change so much during the play because he was going about life in a poor manner in the first place.
Tim mentioned the idea of buying relationships and that is why I posted the link on Wiki about "conspicuous consumption"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspic...
Candy wrote: "Something else...money wise and relationships. Yes, the lack of female characters...and that prostitution is the relationship that Timon seems to be processing. His regrets at getting general disea..."Timon got a sexually transmitted disease from a sex worker? Where did that come from? Did I miss something in the text?
Candy wrote: "Thank you James, for the history of gold burying and finding in UK Very interesting. In a side note...sorry...to switch topics....but I watch this crazy show on the History network called "The Curs..."Oh gold. there are many 'gold' quotes in other Shakespeare plays. S talks about gold throughout his literary career. I wonder where he buried his?
My point about the buried gold was that it was not uncommon to find gold and valuables buried, all over Europe in the past and to the present day. It is a believable scenario for the story, based on real events ha ha!
The Timon story is based on a historical character, apparently. Shakespeare and his collaborator would have used Plutarch's written version of the Timon story, or, as I think more likely, a translation of Plutarch stories.
Why was this story chosen to bring to the public at this particular time in England? This is an essential question to me (though not the The essesential question)
Was it to do with the new King James and pointing to his bevy of mostly Scottish 'flatterers' whose excesses and debts were sometimes paid for by King James out of the public purse?
Were subtle or not so subtle messages about this being sent via this play?
Shakespeare changes the original story of Timon in that he has Timon living in a cave and being more like an angry hermit, whereas the real life Timon is supposed to have gone to work as a laborer in the fields outside Athens and it was while working in the fields that he found gold.
Having Timon living in a cave suggests more possibilities of a magus, a seer, a saint. that he he finds 'gold' in his cave......
Yes, I did say earlier in the play that Timon seems rather dumb and this is what most of the audience of the play would feel in the opening acts of the play. How could he be so stupid? eh?
But when he loses it all and then finds, for him, more gold, I think he starts to get smart - to develop his thinking and understanding about life.
This comes out in the last wonderful exchange he has with Apemantus. So by the end of Act 4 I am coming around to Timon and I am sympathising with him and feel that he has grown and learned. He may be a grumpy old git. So might I.
Mod
James says, "But when he loses it all and then finds, for him, more gold, I think he starts to get smart - to develop his thinking and understanding about life. "
Gold is in many other plays however gold is only mentioned a couple times in other plays, sometimes five times. In TIMON OF ATHENS gold is mentioned 25 times. Five times as much as the next most used. I believe that makes it significant.
Your observation about Timon finding gold makes him smarter is exactly what I was saying about the practice of alchemy. Most people assume the idea of turning lead into gold is monetary. In Alchemical Philosophy it was a metaphor that the human was lead and the idea was to turn them selves into gold.
In a round about way, you have agreed with my comments in message #20, while sounding like you are arguing with them LOL
Having Timon in a cave, to me, represent's Plato's Cave. His self-awareness is manifesting in strange locations and discoveries.
The hero's journey can be distilled down to three stages (although many of us would say there are at least dozen stages overall)
I see some parts of Shakespeare's Timon as being a sort of experimental inversion of the hero's journey.
Joseph Campbell says, "A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man."
Well, that doesn't happen in Timon exactly, it's as if in his society Timon is doing it backwards.
the distilled three stages of the hero's journey are
1. Departure
2. Initiation (the abyss)
3. Return (sharing the boons of journey, riches or knowledge)
But in this play it goes closer to this...an inversion...
1 Return (sharing his riches)
2. Initiation (his suffering and disillusion)
3. Departure
Gold, gold, gold. Timon finds gold while not looking for it and he doesn't want it. But he uses it anyway for good (perhaps) by giving a fortune to Flavius his faithful servant, and to Alcibiades and the women he gives gold in hope that this will help in bringing the downfall of Athens.This suggests to me that Timon realises the 'gold' that Flavius has been to him - his friendship and loyalty. He also sees that gold can be used to fund a revolution; a war against corruption symbolised by Athens.
Timon was the son of a rich man and as you noted Candy the wealth was gained from the labour of other people and the use of slavery (though slavery is not mentioned per se in this play). Timon did not really value his riches and did not seem to have a thought in his head except for having a good time. Perhaps if he had been married and had children, a family, he'd have had a different outlook.
This play to me sways between morality tale and satire and is not a tragedy or a comedy. Satirical morality tale?
Timon is a hero to me. I hadn't thought about that before Candy - Timon as hero; but yes Timon a hero with his own special brand of hubris. Anti-hero?
By the way, did you note the Alchemy line in the play?
And while I'm here - What's happened to the Arcadia discussion? It has not been set up for discussion, though I left some initial thoughts there is no way for anyone to reply. July - the beat goes on.
Mod
I got spaced...I'm working on Arcadia...oops!
Candy wrote: "Hi James, good thoughts. Im glad to see that some of us enjoyed this play and getting to know Timon.I got spaced...I'm working on Arcadia...oops!"
Hi Candy. I pushed for this play to be discussed, knowing nothing about it; my main reason for wishing to read and discuss it. And now I find myself, at this point in my life, identifying with Timon, after becoming acquainted with him. It's made me think, perhaps too heavily, in the 'what's it all about Alfie?' mode.
Mod
JamesD wrote: "Candy wrote: "Hi James, good thoughts. Im glad to see that some of us enjoyed this play and getting to know Timon.I got spaced...I'm working on Arcadia...oops!"
Hi Candy. I pushed for this play ..."
Maybe I'll learn the words to What's it all about, Alfie, and get my cousin Michael to sing it to me more often - he knows the words already.
I wonder how old Timon is meant to be when he outspends himself and loses his credit? That he has no obvious relatives, parents, wife, brothers, sisters, children, uncles and aunts is remarkable to me.
That aside, enough people reach a certain time in their live when they think, "I really blew it! What now?"
