"The Way of Thorn and Thunder" by Daniel Heath Justice (BR)

[Travis]

Here's a thread for discussion of The Way of Thorn and Thunder by Daniel Heath Justice.

Please use spoiler tags marked by chapter for anything beyond a basic first impression.

I'm really looking forward to this one!

[Travis]

I've got my copy and will be starting just as soon as I finish one of the June group reads.

[Gabi]

Damn … this one isn't available on audible - would have been so convenient, since I'm lacking behind with my eye-reading.

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "Damn … this one isn't available on audible - would have been so convenient, since I'm lacking behind with my eye-reading."

Yeah, bummer. As far as I can tell, no audio version was ever produced. I agree it looks like it would be amazing as an audiobook.

[Kaa]

Eee, I'm really excited for this! The ebook is just expensive enough that I felt like I had to be sure I was going to read it before I could buy it.

[Lesley]

I was able to get this through Interlibrary Loan (came all the way from Colorado to Arizona), so I started it last weekend to make sure I’d have enough time to finish before it’s due back. I shouldn’t have worried though as the story is very absorbing and I’m flying through it.

First impressions: (view spoiler)[ I love the use of gender and that so many of the “heroic” characters are female. I’m enamored with the fact that menstruating females in this world are considered more powerful during that time of the month, that the act of bleeding is power. There’s even a reference to a female character packing menstrual rags in preparation for a journey. I love that the author is embracing the unseen and giving it voice in so many ways.

I also appreciate the thinly veiled metaphor for the Native American/colonial struggle in the Western US, particularly the connection to the earth and specific places and the idea of living spirits being embodied throughout the Everland. There are definitely some hard parts to read (torture, rape, misogyny, racism), but I think these themes are well handled and discussed through the fantasy lens. Even couched in a different setting, it’s a very accurate depiction of this dark part of American history. (hide spoiler)]

I’m looking forward to hearing what other folks think!

[Travis]

Lesley wrote: "I was able to get this through Interlibrary Loan (came all the way from Colorado to Arizona), so I started it last weekend to make sure I’d have enough time to finish before it’s due back. I should..."

This has me SO EXCITED to pick this up (and also a bit impatient with the book I'm currently reading). I also had to get it through ILL. Mine came from Bryn Mawr College.

[Lesley]

Travis wrote: "Mine came from Bryn Mawr College.”

Mine came from Colorado College in Colorado Springs. Perhaps unfortunate but not too surprising that only small liberal arts colleges have copies of this book?

[Gabi]

I started it this morning. The first chapter already convinced me. This one looks a lot more promising than what I've read in the last weeks.

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "I started it this morning. The first chapter already convinced me. This one looks a lot more promising than what I've read in the last weeks."

I started last night. Two chapters in so far, and I 100% agree. What an amazing beginning. Already the characters seem so rich and vivid.

[Shomeret]

Travis wrote: "Gabi wrote: "I started it this morning. The first chapter already convinced me. This one looks a lot more promising than what I've read in the last weeks."

I started last night. Two chapters in so..."

I wish I had the time to read this in June.

[Kristin B.]

I don't know why, but I am having trouble really getting into this. I'm at about 16% and I'm just not compelled to keep going.

It has all the aspects that I generally love, so I can't figure out where my block is.

[Travis]

Kristin B. wrote: "I don't know why, but I am having trouble really getting into this. I'm at about 16% and I'm just not compelled to keep going.

It has all the aspects that I generally love, so I can't figure out w..."

I'm through just three chapters, and I can tell it'll take me a bit of time to get through. I'm very much drawn in, but so far at least narrative suspense isn't what's making me turn the pages -- more curiosity about the world.

[Kaa]

This is definitely going to be a slow one for me as well, but I am very invested so far. I've read up to the end of Cycle One (~9%) and am fascinated by both the world-building and characters.

[Lesley]

I think what drew me into the narrative initially were the characters, particularly as new ones are introduced, each with their own unique perspective and role to play. In Chapter 3, (view spoiler)[I really enjoyed Tarsa and Unahi’s developing relationship and the possibilities embodied in their deep connection to the earth and nature’s power. Definitely echoes of Star Wars and the Force, but more grounded in Native American spirituality. (hide spoiler)]

Starting in Chapter 12 (view spoiler)[ when the folk begin the Sevenfold Council debates, the story slowed way down for me. It was interesting to meet all the different folk, especially the beasts, and see how they interact, but the action was more limited. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

I'm slow at the moment, too. So far it's not the fault of the novel, though, but still extremely limited time for eye reading. I got a bit of a Broken Earth vibe in the first chapters which I like!
Weekend is some train travel time. Good chance for reading.

[Gabi]

Up to chapter 5 now and I just want to leave a short "Love it" here! The characters, the writing, the melancholy, the spirituality ... everything resonates so much with me.

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "Up to chapter 5 now and I just want to leave a short "Love it" here! The characters, the writing, the melancholy, the spirituality ... everything resonates so much with me."

I finished the first cycle last night and fully agree. I hadn't thought about the melancholy before, but you're very right. It seeps into these characters lives and makes me want to know more about all that's been lost.

I'm traveling over the next several days so won't be posting much, but I'm excited to have more time to keep going with this book.

[Gabi]

Travis wrote: "I'm traveling over the next several days so won't be posting much, but I'm excited to have more time to keep going with this book. "

Same here … it looks like I'll be spending some time on trains over the next days. Somehow looking forward to it cause of this book.

[Kristin B.]

Still kind of slow going for me but I appreciate the skill in the story telling. I'm just getting to 21% and I think one of the best things so far is how we have all the different peoples of Everland, and even different factions within those people. It's an interesting interpretation of all the tribes of North America. It wasn't just "settlers vs. the Natives." There were dozens of different tribes involved with their own histories, customs, traditions and politics.

Boiling down the indigenous peoples of North America to just one group is like saying every European nation has the same history, culture and language as the rest. I appreciate the diversity and the care that this story is taking with it.

[Lesley]

Kristin B. wrote: "I appreciate the diversity and the care that this story is taking with it."

100% agree with this. It’s one of the best things about this book. Even within the modern political boundaries that the US government forced tribes into, there are sometimes hundreds of different familial/clan groups within them. I like how this is reflected with the characters’ naming conventions, how their lineage is so important to who they are and the traditions they follow.

[Lesley]

I finished this last night and my mind is blown. This book is brilliant. I may have shed some tears during the last couple of chapters. I sort of want to go back and read it again to pick up all the different threads. I absolutely loved the character development through the book, particularly that they were all flawed. While my favorite characters remain the three main protagonists, I was also drawn in by Neranda’s story. (Sorry for all the spoiler tags, but I don’t know how far along folks are in the book!) In chapter 7, (view spoiler)[ she ruthlessly defends the Everland against someone who would exploit it for personal profit. (hide spoiler)], but then in chapter 13 onward, (view spoiler)[ she appears to be completely aligned with Man and with Vald, even if his plot seems completely nefarious. (hide spoiler)] In Chapter 22 (view spoiler)[ she commits the ultimate betrayal and is henceforth known Shakar the traitor. (hide spoiler)] Then in the final chapters, (view spoiler)[ she is redeemed when she is filled with the wyr and sees how she’s been led astray, but this entire time her motives have been the same: to save and preserve the Everland. She just had a different perspective about how to make it happen and made a huge mistake in who she trusted. She’s flawed but not irredeemable like so many “evil” characters in fantasy novels. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Blowing my mind is exactly how I feel. I'm almost half way through and completely swept away.

Some specifics:

From ch. 10

(view spoiler)[This description of how exploitation of nature accompanies colonialism: "the eyes of Men turned once again to the deep forests and mist-shrouded mountains, eyes that saw only downed timber, gleaming gold, fine furs, endless mean, and hardy slaves for the market." Crushing.

I also love the use of "Men" or, in other places, "Men and Women" to name the colonizers and "Folk" to name the people indigenous to Everland. (hide spoiler)]

From ch. 15

(view spoiler)[Has there ever been a more amazing zeppelin in any book ever? I love how the Stormbringer incites all the different feelings associated with awe, from amazement to terror. And how it is also called "the Dragon." (hide spoiler)]

From ch. 16

(view spoiler)[This description of the land after Men have used it: "This wasn't just a dead place--it was a murdered world." The amount of sadness and grief and truth and relevance in that phrase is more devastating than anything I've read in a long time. (hide spoiler)]

From ch. 17

(view spoiler)[This description of the kind of dwellings Men inhabit was similarly crushing: "Secrets were comfortable in Gothic hall, and things crawled among the shadows without fear of daylight." (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

Travis wrote: "Blowing my mind is exactly how I feel. I'm almost half way through and completely swept away.

Your quotes from chapters 10 and 16 are spot on. (view spoiler)[ It really sums up one of the central tensions in the entire novel, the Men ravaging the Everland because they are so disconnected from the earth and the Folk fighting to maintain that connection. In the scenes between Tarsa and Vald, there’s a sense that they’re talking past each other because they’re coming from such different paradigms. It’s not just language that gets in the way. This also reminds me of The Word for World is Forest. Actually I can see a lot of Le Guin’s influence throughout. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Gosh! I want to read on! I couldn't read at the weekend, like I was hoping for. I want to read all the spoiler tags! But I'm so exhilarated by the positive reactions of the two of you. I already am swept away by the book at only 14% - and this looks like there so much good stuff to come. Wanna read!

[Kristin B.]

This book is hitting hard for the same reason I had trouble with The Poppy War, because it is based in reality. Knowing parts of that book were based on The Rape of Nanking and that this is based on The Trail of Tears makes it so much more difficult to read.

I'm finally moving along and making progress but that kind of just makes it more painful.

100% agree with the quote Travis highlighted for Chapter 16. That was the first thing I highlighted in the book.

There are so many beautiful lines in the story. Just now at the end of Chapter 35 I highlighted (view spoiler)["The Tree is fallen, but it still endures. I am the Eternity Tree, Tobhi. And now, so are you." (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Still not far enough to click the spoilers, but what I like is the use of zhe and hir. This is much more defined for me than the double meaning they/them, which ever so often makes me stumble in a text.

[Kristin B.]

Gabi wrote: "Still not far enough to click the spoilers, but what I like is the use of zhe and hir. This is much more defined for me than the double meaning they/them, which ever so often makes me stumble in a ..."

I feel the same way. My poor grammatical heart stumbles on they/them. I will of course use them if ever asked, but it certainly takes some getting used to. I really would like English to just adopt a neutral pronoun.

[Anna]

I'm not reading the book right now, although I love how great you're all making it sound, but I'm popping in for yet another they vs. a made up pronoun discussion. I personally prefer they/them, because it's something we already have and understand. I'm certainly not opposed to a completely new gender neutral pronoun, but I don't love everyone making up their own. I really struggle reading books with made up pronouns, especially if they're not something I've encountered before. I have to work really hard to keep track of what gender this one meant, when in my mind referring to people in casual conversation should be gender neutral. I'm 100% for gender neutral pronouns in all languages, but I don't really care what the pronoun is, as long as everyone agrees to use the same ones.

Not talking about this book, but in the past I've completely missed the use of zhe/hir in audiobooks, because zhe especially sounds like she, and then as you're assuming the narrator is referring to a she, it's easy to mishear hir as her. Depending on the narrator of course. Some pronounce hir more like here, which stands out, but I've also heard it sound almost identical to her.

Anyway, can the language police please hurry up and settle on a nice gender neutral pronoun we can all start using?

[Gabi]

Anna wrote: "Anyway, can the language police please hurry up and settle on a nice gender neutral pronoun we can all start using? "

That would be very nice! Just a few moments ago, I read "eir" on an author's profile - haven't heard that one before.

[Travis]

I'm comfortable with and typically prefer they/them. But the hir/zhe in this book doesn't cause me to stumble at all -- in part because the pronoun is often attached to a plural noun (e.g. "zhe-Kyn") denoting both gender and affiliation.

[Lesley]

I took the use of zhe/hir in this book to refer to a third gender, not necessarily a neutral gender. In the first few chapters (can’t reference the exact one because I don’t have my book with me), zhe-Kyn are shown to play a special role in their society. There are a few more references to their unique healing abilities scattered throughout, but I was disappointed that this wasn’t explored more throughout the book.

[Gabi]

This is a good point, Lesley. This could be it as well.

[Anna]

I've only seen zhe/hir used for non-binary people, that I can recall. My point was really about inventing a gender neutral pronoun that we could use for all humans, instead of keeping he/she and inventing new ones for all different types of non-binary people.

But I'm very off topic now, please continue talking about this wonderful book I'm unfortunately not reading!

[Kristin B.]

So, there is something I've been thinking about for awhile that's been particularly bugging me as situations escalate in the story.

Not really a spoiler as it's mentioned pretty early, but I will throw it behind a tag just in case. (view spoiler)[Does it seem odd that this story is taking place 1,000 years after the Melding? Somehow the races have managed to co-exist, if not exactly peacefully, at least with some semblance of balance for a millennium. But suddenly things are escalating quickly within just a few short years? Most things seem to be happening within the lifetimes of the main characters. Unahi mentions that the Shield have only really started to rise in the past couple of decades. I'm just wondering why the author chose to have the Men wait 1,000 years before they started stealing the land from the Kyn in earnest. Seems a strange choice when he could have easily made it less than a century. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

@Travis: the quote from chapter 16 was spot on. Chilled my blood!

@Kristin: in one of the last chapters I read it sounded like there was an underlying hostility for quite some time.

Up to chapter 17: (view spoiler)[ I'm intrigued by the world building and the different abilities the different groups have. The description of the dirigibles was wonderful, and the book binding magic in the last chapter quite surprising (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Finished! It definitely moved much faster in the second half. The story was so epic that the ending seems eons away from where it started with the Stone Skin.

Spoilers for the end (view spoiler)[ I don't care if Neranda did the right thing in the end. I hope she suffers eternal torment.

I like that the ending is hopeful, even if it was all still devastating. I was wondering how we would get a satisfying ending while still staying true to the real history that this is based on. Though, the ending for the Folk is more satisfactory than the issues that Native Americans are still facing.

And at least in the story there was the truly Evil Villain with capital letters. In reality, people just suck. (hide spoiler)]

I'm glad I ended up splurging and buying this when the library didn't have it. Even though it felt like a slog at the beginning, I think it was a really important read. Looking forward to seeing everyone else's thoughts!

[Gabi]

Can't wait to get there! It didn't slog along for me in the first third.

[Lesley]

Kristin B. wrote: "Finished! It definitely moved much faster in the second half.”

I think it's really interesting how different people experienced the pacing of the story. I thought the first dozen chapters or so moved very quickly, but I got bogged down in (view spoiler)[ the council negotiations and then what I called the court intrigue part, where they were at Vald's castle. (hide spoiler)] I did think the last third of the book flew by as well, even as parts were emotionally difficult to read.

I agree with your thoughts in the end about (view spoiler)[ Neranda. She definitely deserves the name Shakar. I do think it was very astute of the author to give her a consistent motivation throughout the novel though, even if her actions in pursuit of that end goal were reprehensible.

I appreciated that the ending felt like it was earned. There were definitely huge, unimaginable sacrifices along the way, but it seemed like each of those had purpose.

I’m curious about your (and others') thoughts on this idea that the Melding never happened and it was just something made up by Men to control Folk. It reminded me of the whole “the conqueror gets to write history,” and made me think about the hidden history of Native America (and other disenfranchised groups) which this book very effectively shines a light on. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Lesley wrote: "Kristin B. wrote: "Finished! It definitely moved much faster in the second half.”

I think it's really interesting how different people experienced the pacing of the story. I thought the first doze..."

Re: thoughts on the ending (view spoiler)[That was definitely an interesting bit of plot at the end. I think that the way it was worded was that there was an event that happened, The Melding, but that it was just Men being introduced into their world from some other place. Something obviously happened as the suns and moons were different between the places. I never really fully understood that bit. There was definitely an actual boundary but I could never quite wrap my mind around exactly how it worked.

But as you said, it is definitely a feeling of "the winners write history." I appreciated that the Folk remembered that this had been their home and were ready to reclaim and repair it. I also appreciated that it wasn't easy. There was infighting and desperation. There was pain and trauma. Something that North America's Indigenous peoples are still dealing with. I do wish that this was a more widely read novel for that very reason. Just because improvements have been made does not mean that everything is better. Not by a long shot.

This story was also a very good illustration of wars not being won by who is right, but who is stronger. We have a somewhat hopeful ending, but the Folk in no way won. And if we follow the story in real life, we clearly see that the intruders won in the end. (hide spoiler)]

[Lesley]

Kristin B. wrote: "Re: thoughts on the ending”

Thanks for your thoughts! Yes, I also thought (view spoiler)[ that it was an interesting plot twist and maybe not entirely necessary to move the story forward? I like your interpretation that it was in fact a joining of two worlds previously unconnected, not unlike when Europeans arrived in North America.

I also wish this book was more widely known, not just because it’s a great, innovative fantasy novel, but also because like you said, more people need to know the story. My work regularly brings me in contact with tribes in the Southwest US, often in ways where we're collectively trying to find a path forward to deal with the tyranny and exploitation of the past. So much of what is in this book rings true in relation to conversations and stories I've heard from tribal members over the years, the pain of that history and the continuing injustice of the present. (hide spoiler)]

[Gabi]

Chapter 20 ... Gosh, I'm crying! It's been quite some time, since a book had such a deep emotional impact on me. I'm totally torn between hope and fear.

[Gabi]

End of cycle three: (view spoiler)[ The dialogue between Neranda and Blackwick was so intense, so good! I really started to feel for Neranda here. What she does she does cause she believes it to be the best for her folk, and that moment when Blackwick admits that his people don't need the Everland at all ... Wow! I'm still shivering! (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Gabi wrote: "End of cycle three: [spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[It's for these reasons that I also am in such awe at the characterization of Neranda: so many layers of nuance in the decisions she makes. (hide spoiler)]

[Kristin B.]

Blackwick is fascinating and gets even more so towards the end!