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June/July 2019 - Gone With the Wind - Part 2 Discussion (thru 06/24/19)
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Sylvia
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May 27, 2019 07:26AM
Post comments, questions, thoughts, favorite quotes, and connections to other books here. (Part 2)
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"The difference between the two girls lay in the fact that Melanie spoke kind and flattering words from desire to make people happy, if only temporarily, and Scarlett never did it except to further her own aims"
A very Steinbeck-ish observation that screams in general terms about people.
I thought Part Two started very slow with too much detail of Atlanta that made for a boring first chapter. However, it has picked up with the presence of Rhett.How does everyone feel about Rhett so far and how Scarlett is acting since being widowed?
I do have sympathy for Scarlett as oppressive societal standards confine her; however, her lack of kindness and self-serving attitude does get a bit tiring to read and makes me less inclined to feel sorry for her. I think Rhett is utterly charming, and it is refreshing to see someone expect more of Scarlett and push her to think for herself beyond societal norms.
"She had become adept at putting unpleasant thoughts out of her mind these days. She had learned to say, "I won't think of this or that bothersome thought now. I'll think about it tomorrow." Generally when tomorrow came, the thought either did not occur at all or it was so attenuated by the delay that is was not very troublesome" (Chapter 11).
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Phew..I had to get that off my chest
I feel like both characters are naturally outspoken and rebellious, which makes them come off like these pillars of social change; however, it is difficult for me to appreciate or pick out any of their redeeming qualities for the simple fact that they are both so terribly self-absorbed. As much as this bothers me, I find it necessary and appropriate that Margaret MitchelI did not paint Scalett and Rhett as these infallible beings. The seeds of independent thought should always grow wild. Rhett is an astute philosopher, but he also a grimy opportunist. I could picture him selling over-priced generators in Florida after a hurricane. The same way I could picture the fiercely-outspoken Scarlett as one of those cougar moms who try to get hot looks from their daughter's boyfriends. GWTW is chock-full of social consciousness but explored in a genuine way.
Daniel, this analogy is spot-on and it will definitely stick with me. Very well-written comments! I'm glad that Mitchell keeps reminding us that Scarlett is only 17 years old - widowed and with a young child. How would current 17-year-olds handle her situation? Much the same - maybe even worse. I still empathize with Scarlett, despite her self-centeredness. She's beginning to remind me of my sister. We were raised by a Texan father who grew up with the same mindsets of those described in GWTW. Three of the four children (myself included) abided by the very strict sexist ideas that women belonged in the kitchen and having babies were our main purpose in life. My parents set aside college money for my brother - and the girls were never encouraged to attend. I ended up being the only one in my family to get a college education and I had to pay for it 100% on my own.
However, the middle sister, Martina, kicked up her heels and refused to be constrained. She fought my parents, schools, and society her entire life. We slept in the same room growing up and she hated me because I was so 'goody-two-shoes.' Frankly, I just didn't enjoy getting in trouble and followed all the rules. I loved and admired her courage and her strength - but didn't tell her until we were much, much older.
Martina was the most attractive of the three daughters, but she wasn't conceited. She attracted all the boys (even stole my first boyfriend when I brought him home to meet the family!) because of her spirit and zest to challenge boundaries. I'm still finding more I like about Scarlett than not. Probably because she reminds me so much of my sister.
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I'm glad that Mitchell keeps reminding us that Scarlett is only 17 years old - widowed and with a..."
That analogy screamed at me after Rhett was officially ostracized for his comments about government contracts. I was literally shaking at the chance to post it on the board, but I chose to wait until the morning. The whole dinner ball reminded me of Kanye's meltdown—one of many meltdowns—about the government's response during and after Hurricane Katrina. Scarlett's obvious embarrassment about Rhett's actions reminded me of Mike Myers' embarrassment when standing next to Kanye during his epic tirade.
I love the family connection you have with the story. I am sure Mitchell knew that her fictional family archetype could fit snugly into the hearts and minds of her readers. On a personal note, did you ever have a moment when you nervously stood up like Melanie about an issue you felt indignation about? Obviously, spare the details; however, based on the description of your upbringing, an action like that in itself is deserving of praise😊 even if was many years ago.
Daniel wrote: "Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler are the Kim Kardashian and Kanye West of the 19th century.Phew..I had to get that off my chest
I feel like both characters are naturally outspoken and rebelliou..."
Hi Daniel, I think your analysis of Rhett is accurate. He does do slimy things for personal gain. I'm wondering why we take issue with what Rhett is doing when everyone in this book is morally corrupt? Instead of focusing on how the majority of the characters are making their livelihoods off the backs of enslaved African-Americans whom they own like a piece of property and treat with abuse by working them to their graves and killing them for any number of reasons, we point the finger at Rhett. Is it because acknowledging that truth is too difficult and we don't see the hypocrisy? Alternatively, is it because Mitchell is a white woman writing from the perspective of white slaveholders; therefore, we can't make the connection? Yes, Rhett is someone that only shows loyalty to himself and is money driven but is there anything truly wrong with that? If there is something wrong with being selfish, is it more wrong than what sin everyone else in this book is committing by owning people? In my opinion, it doesn't compare to what the most significant issue of this book centers around which is the civil war and the right for African Americans to gain freedom.
Also, I'm having difficulty imagining what Scarlett would be like in 2019. So much of how Scarlett acts come from a place of oppression, from how she is raised, to her marriage and life as a widow. The oppression Scarlett deals within the novel are not the kind of oppression most women have to deal with now. Mitchell describes all of the different ways Scarlett is expected to act with each group of people; it's such an excellent example of the expectations that were forced onto her. It was such a unique time in history for women, and I don't know if I feel right about speculating about the kind of person Scarlett would be because I haven't faced the same concrete obstacles she has.
Hi Daniel, I think your analysis of Rhett is accurate. He does do slimy things for personal gain. I'm wondering why we take issue with what Rhett is doing when everyone in this book is morally corrupt? Instead of focusing on how the majority of the characters are making their livelihoods off the backs of enslaved African-Americans whom they own like a piece of property and treat with abuse by working them to their graves and killing them for any number of reasons, we point the finger at Rhett. Is it because acknowledging that truth is too difficult and we don't see the hypocrisy? Alternatively, is it because Mitchell is a white woman writing from the perspective of white slaveholders; therefore, we can't make the connection? Yes, Rhett is someone that only shows loyalty to himself and is money driven but is there anything truly wrong with that? If there is something wrong with being selfish, is it more wrong than what sin everyone else in this book is committing by owning people? In my opinion, it doesn't compare to what the most significant issue of this book centers around which is the civil war and the right for African Americans to gain freedom. "
Hello Katie
I think it is the major flaw in this otherwise wonderful book that Mitchell presented a very sanitized view of slavery and made her black characters so two-dimensional.
What I am wondering is why? Was it Mitchell herself who could not see the evils of slavery? Did she or her editor or publisher feel the book would not sell if it presented slavery more realistically? After all, 1936 was not the most enlightened time, especially in the South where Jim Crow laws were in full force.
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Phew..I had to get that off my chest
I feel like both characters are naturally outspoke..."
That is true. It was a little presumptuous of me to make those allegations about Scarlett. I also liked what you said about everyone having blood on their hands which is exactly how I felt, but I chose to pick two characters just to make an example. I think it was genius of Mitchell to create a character like Rhett and use him like a finger to point out everyone's hypocrisies. I also love Scarlett's mother, Ellen, and I see her inclusion in the story as a vital element to show contrast in the ages.
On a different note, the descriptions of clothing and fabric are some of the vivid I have ever read. I constantly twisting on my swivel chair, googling names of fabric on my laptop and seeing images of all this 19th century attire.
Daniel wrote: "Katie wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler are the Kim Kardashian and Kanye West of the 19th century.Phew..I had to get that off my chest
I feel like both characters are natu..."
I also really enjoy Ellen's character as well as Gerald, even though his role is problematic in itself. You have given me something new to do in researching clothes and fabrics of the time! Something my mom and I are doing while reading this book is highlighting all of the words we don't know and looking up the definitions for them as Mitchell's lexicon is so expansive.
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A few more comments mid-way through Part 2:1. I lived in Atlanta, Georgia in the mid-1980's. The name "Peachtree" still holds value and prestige; having property with the word 'peachtree' anywhere in the name added value and status. I know a person I worked with who wanted to have 'Peachtree' in his address so much that he lived in an apartment so expensive that he could not afford furniture. He only had metal lawn chairs and boxes as end tables in his living room.
2. I still keep empathizing with Scarlett and am beginning to believe that her reputation and characterization as a self-absorbed brat come more from Hollywood's film adaptation than from Mitchell's intention. Scarlett was very aware of her "flawed" ways:
"Every woman present was blazing with an emotion she did not feel. It bewildered and depressed her."
"In a sudden flash of self-knowledge that made her mouth pop open with astonishment, she realized that she did not share with these women their fierce price, their desire to sacrifice themselves and everything they had for the Cause. "
"Oh, why couldn't she feel like these other women!"
"Oh, why was she different, apart from these loving women? She could never love anything or anyone so selflessly as they did. What a lonely feeling it was."
"At first she tried to stifle the thoughts, but the hard self-honesty that lay at the base of her nature would not permit it. "
3. Lastly, I have mixed emotions about the level of allegiance towards the "Cause" as it is described in this book. "A Cause they loved as much as they loved their men, a Cause they served with their hands and their hearts, a Cause they talked about, thought about, dreamed about - a Cause to which they would sacrifice these men if need be, and bear their loss as proudly as the men bore their battle flags" (176). Having grown up as a military brat in Texas, I was surrounded by this same level of devotion and willingness to sacrifice for the good of the country. Without question. Blind allegiance. Now, having learned much about politics and the many reasons countries go to war and sacrifice lives, I no longer view this loyalty in the same light. Mixed emotions. And loss of the romanticized innocence of complete trust in good intentions.
Now that I've finished Part 2, looks like I have something in common with Ashley and Rhett...
Daniel wrote: "Scarlett O'Hara and Rhett Butler are the Kim Kardashian and Kanye West of the 19th century.Phew..I had to get that off my chest
I feel like both characters are naturally outspoken and rebelliou..."
I cannot bear this comparison as it makes me feel sick. YUCK!
Lissa wrote: "Chapter XII is hands down my favorite chapter so far. I don't dislike Scarlett, but I feel more of an affinity for Melanie at this point. I like how she was initially portrayed as mousy and timid..."
I don't dislike Scarlett either. I think she is fascinating.
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I don't dislike Scarlett, but I feel more of an affinity for Melanie at this point. I like how she was initially portrayed as mousy and timid..."
I love Scarlett to pieces. She is unabashed femininity and rightfully so. How SHOULD a widow at 16 act? It is unfair to expect demureness from someone so young. I can't stand these old traditions. That mentality reminds me of why Shirley Jackson wrote "The Lottery". I feel for Scarlet every time she tries to hide her excitement. If Rhett didn't buy her dance, I would of jumped through the book and pushed her on the dance floor myself. Melanie is equally as fierce in her own way. Any qualms I have about Rhett are quickly ironed every time he encounters Melanie. He puts individuality on a pedestal, whether if it is a sharp tongue or angel-like naiveté.
My mother loved Scarlett to pieces also so I am very glad to hear you say this and make these excellent comments. She was only 16!
There are so many interesting comments here and wonderful points of view and opinion I never considered. I have read this book many times and seen the movie as equally frequent. I always thought the four main characters; Scarlett, Rhett, Melanie and Ashley were mirror images of each other with each one possessing / lacking an enviable trait in another.
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"I always thought the four main characters; Scarlett, Rhett, Melanie and Ashley were mirror images of each other with each one possessing / lacking an enviable trait in another."
Wow, this blows my mind. Chris, you nailed it. It verifies my initial thoughts about Rhett putting Melanie on a pedestal because he KNOWS his vindictiveness and cynicism stomped over any innocence he had left. He is lacking what Melanie represents, and he knows he will never get that back.
Daniel wrote: "Chris wrote: "There are so many interesting comments here and wonderful points of view and opinion I never considered. I have read this book many times and seen the movie as equally frequent. I alw..."Did Rhett ever truly possess it, Daniel, or more likely is it something he envies for never having attained within himself?
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Chris, I believe he did, as all young kids do at some point. I'm sure he responded to his parents with "why" a lot when he was younger. I think his initial banishment from the community tipped him over the edge and formed him into the Rhett we read in the book.
Rhett was based on Margaret Mitchell's first beau. You can learn all about this from readingComplete Gone with the Wind Trpb. I believe this was one I read.
I also like Scarlett and Rhett as characters. They bring refreshing perspectives of how men and women were in 1860's southern society. Not all of them abided by society's rules and traditions.
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The old saying you see what you want to see describes this scene excatly, Enjoy Reading, 📚
I have never read the book or seen the movie. I am thoroughly enjoying this exploration and reading everyone’s comments here is even more enlightening. The writing is so vivid and paints clear pictures of the scenes.
I really like Scarlett’s character. I also can’t imagine being a woman living in this time period. I’m so thankful feminine roles are not what they used to be.
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The writing is so vivid and paints clear pi..."
I maybe of a different generation or opinion. But feminine roles have not changed that much. White women get their status, approval, position, children, homes, jobs, legal laws, through the privy of white and black men back in 1860 and still do to this day.
I have seen the movie several times. This is my first time reading the book. I am completely enjoying the book. Enjoy Reading, 📚
I apologize but I didn’t realize until the last message we were to post in here as well as have our discussion with our assigned persons. I am slightly behind due to medical neck issue but am catching up now. I am well into Part two reading & just have to keep reminding myself of the times this book was written.
Life must’ve been so very different than today’s standards. The age in which women, well girls really, were married and having children!
There is not a 17 year old which I know in today’s world (at least in the USA) who would be married, widowed, have a baby & be expected to wear black and be in mourning for any number of years following. As well as the expectations as to never find or have another relationship with with a man!
As for Rhett & Scarlett— I think they are both rebellious & do not seem to follow what the lifestyle guidelines of their past generations did or thought. They are free spirited.
Looking forward to continuing the reading and journey. Loving the history of the book as well. I do think I have read this but more than a few decades ago when I was a teen...
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I am slightly behind due to medical neck issue but am catc..."
I respect your opinion that is why we have GoodReads. But, I think you are looking more at appears than substance. Enjoy Reading, La Tonya 📚
Scarlett I want to shake and tell her there is more to life than collecting beaux. That to be love sick over another woman's husband is wrong. That to bury your head in the sand, just because you don't like the truth, will only hurt you in the end. I feel her bucking the southern tradition is brave but detrimental. Her attitude is self-centered and self-absorbed in pleasuring her own wants and desires. Scarlett is what would be labeled spoiled and fast.Rhett is cynical and jaded, but he has respect and compassion for Melanie. He despises hypocrisy and those who play the part are disrespected. I feel he has a kinship with Scarlett's plight and strongly encourages her to think outside the southern box. I also feel he is attracted to Scarlett, but he doesn't recognize the attraction at this stage in their relationship. Rhett has learned the hard way to be resourceful while remaining true to his own sense of honor and more compass.
I've seen the movie twice. I'm enjoying the book. Unfortunately, I have to return the book to the library. I'll have to wait three weeks before I can check it back out again. Happy Reading!
Question: From the documentary "Margaret Mitchell: American Rebel," I learned that the publisher had Mitchell (and her husband) edit out all the 'n-words' and references to the KKK before he would publish it. He was worried about offending the target audience (and source of income). Harper Lee did not do this in her classic (and probably more widely read) "To Kill A Mockingbird." I'm interested in hearing your thoughts about this decision. How do these edits change the novel?
This was the problem with “Huckleberry Finn” too. It was the reason it keeps being banned. Words used in that vernacular pose a difficult publication editing problem. Personally, I would be less stressed without seeing the words. They become like daggers to my eyes. When I first downloaded Twain’s classic to text, I deleted all the “n” words from the novel! Tom
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Sylvia wrote: "Question: From the documentary "Margaret Mitchell: American Rebel," I learned that the publisher had Mitchell (and her husband) edit out all the 'n-words' and references to the KKK before he would ..."I'm not sure that the word "darkie" used throughout the book is any less offensive than the n-word. Can any language conceal the fact that these charming and interesting characters all "have blood on their hands" as one group member noted earlier. When I first read the book as a teenager I think I accepted Mitchell's depiction of slaves at face value. I can't do that now and I don't want to.
Sylvia wrote: "Question: From the documentary "Margaret Mitchell: American Rebel," I learned that the publisher had Mitchell (and her husband) edit out all the 'n-words' and references to the KKK before he would ..."I'm having a huge epiphany. I'm well into Part 3 and won't give away detail, but my opinions about the characters and edits of the 'n-word' and references to the Klan have completely changed. I am no longer a fan of Scarlett and Rhett, as much as I tried to empathize and understand their reality. Margaret Mitchell (and 99% of the white population) were racists. Period. And the inhumane treatment of Blacks is downplayed and not truly authentic in this story. I'm still very glad that I'm reading it, but my purpose and focus is shifting. I respect Harper Lee and her publisher for being more authentic and truly depicting the language and treatment of African-Americans at that time, but even so - all the glorification, admiration, and compassion is directed towards the white characters. We remember and sympathize with Scarlett (I'm guilty myself), Scout, and Atticus Finch, who are white characters repressed by society. But this no where near compares to the tragedy of Blacks in American history. And sadly, even now.
Edit last 2 sentences: “This no where near compares to the tragedy of African Americans in American history. Sadly, it still exists today.”
Sylvia wrote: "Sylvia wrote: "Question: From the documentary "Margaret Mitchell: American Rebel," I learned that the publisher had Mitchell (and her husband) edit out all the 'n-words' and references to the KKK b..."I agree so much with this comment and analysis! As readers, we automatically focus our attention onto Scarlett and whom she interacts with like Rhett and Melly because she is our narrator. As women and feminists alike, we want to show sympathy for the difficult time she is going through whether that be heartbreak or her own oppression in Southern society as a woman and widow. However, I think if you aren't familiar with American history, this book can be very misleading. The plot of this story hinges on the Civil War in which the freedom of all African American lives was dependent. If we are looking at this story solely for the historical context of how enslaved African-Americans were treated, readers would be misled. Since posting on the discussion boards, I have already seen some commentators question the importance of rehashing chattel slavery, and I believe this book reinforces some seriously damaging stereotypes and can lead people away from thinking slavery was such an inhumane and dehumanizing practice against an entire race of people. I am also on part three, and I cannot remember an instance in which Mitchell includes what it will mean for enslaved African-Americans if the North wins the war in terms of social or political ramifications.
Furthermore, I think the exclusion of the n-word may have been in part to make Scarlett a more likable character. The language used in this book can be tough to read, and I believe the inclusion of the n-word would have made white characters such as Scarlett and Rhett even more difficult to like or empathize with. It definitely would have been more representative of the time both in which this book takes place and when Mitchell wrote it to leave it in.
Editing out the language was a decision made by white publishers to better sell this book to white customers, I do not believe any other populations were even considered at the time. As for Margaret Mitchell she openly speaks in different interviews about believing that the south won the war until she was ten years old. Considering how what we learn in our early years shapes us it is not surprising that she was a racist. Please do not think that I am justifying this racism to any degree in any culture in any time period is inexcusable!
Just went back and reread interview with Mitchell from 1936 from PBS website. When talking about research not one mention of any African American or even Northerners views. She may have done a lot of research but she was writing a book about the White confederates and that is all she cared about. Gone with the wind was the result of this very narrow view point.
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Note: Connie, I am not trying to single out your comment. I am referring to the general turn of this discussion. Honestly, I'm looking forward to watching that documentary and reading those write-ups but after the reading.
I think the more we learn about the inner world of GWTW, the more we can understand it’s complexity. The world was different in the 30s, when she wrote the book. Now, everything is diversity and subtle, which offers the world a better perspective on culture. If we sub topic anything, most members will miss the section, and, with it, more info. I am about to start part three. I am amazed, still, at the historical background added to the plot. And, lol, at Scarlett as she reads Ashley’s letters! Tom
Daniel wrote: "Although I enjoy this lively discussion about Margaret Mitchell, I think, for the preservation of internal analysis, there should be a separate forum, possibly one labeled "post reading", for topic..."I did not feel singled out but thank you for being so thoughtful. I am not an educated reader and a little unsure of myself so putting my thoughts out there takes a bit of courage.
I like you find both conversations stimulating. I like to do the research while reading but understand that not everyone does this.
Daniel wrote: "Although I enjoy this lively discussion about Margaret Mitchell, I think, for the preservation of internal analysis, there should be a separate forum, possibly one labeled "post reading", for topic..."Daniel, everyone's opinion matters and everyone should feel 'safe' to post here - even if they disagree with anything that others are posting. That's the value of this thread. And first, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you, but then I'm going to invite members to share their preferences and we will consider what the majority prefer. Fair?
As an English teacher, I always have students read and research the author before we start a novel. In order to truly understand a story, it's very important to understand the time and culture the author comes from. And in all anthologies, non-fiction texts that provide background into the time, setting, or topic are provided along with the fictional text. In my opinion, all this background information is critical to truly understanding the story. I love Margaret Mitchell. She eventually spent huge amounts of the money she earned from the book and the movie to secretly support the education of African Americans in Georgia - even funding the building of an entire medical school. She was progressive and a woman beyond her time. But I think it is extremely important that we realize she was a racist while writing the book. I don't like Scarlett and Rhett anymore - but I still love and appreciate the story - and the value of the novel. And I do believe it needs to be put in context so that people from around the world who are reading this and don't know American history understand that it is coming from the perspective of a white racist.
Does this make me mad? Yes. Does it make me uncomfortable? Yes. As a white Southerner, does this embarrass me? Yes. But, I can't change the past. I can only learn from it and be a more compassionate person as a result. And that's the value of fiction.
Given all this, I understand that this is not a classroom. I am very interested to know what other members prefer. Would you rather the discussion thread stick to purely the plot and the novel itself? Or, is all the extra information helpful?
I like having both discussions on the same page for simplicity. That being said I am ready for some discussion about Rhett Scarlett and Melanie. But will post my thoughts separate from this
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Connie, your thoughts were so on point and thought provoking that it forced me out of bed early on a Sunday to rant without coffee.
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Rhett is a bad boy. He is every woman's dream. But, most women know he is a fantasy. It is odd how the matron's can look over bad beahavior when the blockade his providing for their comfort. But, yet their social standing does not change.
Melanie is devoted to her husband. Which is good to see and read about. In present day, you do not see too many women devoted to their husbands.
Scarlett is very good at playing both sides. But, she still holds social standing. This is odd beacause being a good mother is very high on Southern standards and she leaves her child at will to be with Rhett.
Enjoy Reading,
La Tonya
Rhett's behaviour towards Melanie and Aunt Pitty is so "Gentlemanly" despite his supposed contempt for the southern way when speaking to Scarlett. So for those just finishing part 2 is Rhett's behaviour towards Scarlett trying to educate her, enjoying riling her up or are there deeper feelings. These were the questions I had at this point.
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It seems like theirs a lot of hot chemistry between him and Scarlett, and I feel he doesn't know what to do with it, but he enjoys the ride and thrill. It's like being attracted to someone in a wild relationship. You know its never going to materialize into anything substantial, but the ups and downs are somewhat exciting,
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The matrons are the most hypocritical of the bunch. They are so full of crap that they make me root for Rhett: a guy who is sometimes not worth rooting for.
I really don't know what to think about Scarlett. I just hope she doesn't have anymore babies.
As a total pacifist I tend to side with Rhett's take on the war and struggle to empathize with Melanie and the old ladies patriotism. There I have said it out loud!As for Scarlett I see her as self involved and very very naive I am looking forward to see if she grows up in part three. I have to admit that these comments are the result of notes made by me at the end of part two. As I am now just finished chapter23
