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The Raven and the Reindeer
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"The Raven and the Reindeer" Full Discussion *Spoilers*
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rated it 4 stars
May 22, 2019 06:01PM
This thread was previously a buddy read thread, but is now the spoiler thread for our group read of The Raven and the Reindeer. There may be spoiler tags in the early posts, but they are not required for any new posts. Comments for the group read start at comment 18.
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I started this a bit early and am enjoying the writing. The tone and details give it a rich fairy tale feeling that's working well for me.Chapter 5: I've done this. (view spoiler)
I just started the first couple chapters, and I'm really enjoying it so far. Like Raucous said, it is told in a way that calls back to the original fairy tale, but it also has added (and sometimes quite pointed) feminist commentary. I think the author does a good job of blending the two.
It's more like the original than the ones I grew up with. There are some bits in the later chapters that I never heard of. I did some research and found out they're from the original. But it's also not at all like the original, and I love that!
I grew up with the original (in translation) - my uncle gave me a book of HCA fairy tales when I was born and I read it cover to cover countless times as a child - so I love the parallels. And yeah, the differences are also great, and I'm looking forward to more of them.
I can't remember how many different editions I encountered as a child, but I did have a HCA book. I have no memory about any mentions of (view spoiler) in the later chapters, and I think I'd remember that? It was a fun surprise when I first read this, and I confess I didn't remember when I reread earlier this year :D So maybe it *was* in the stories I read as a child?
I remember that we also had a collection of Hans Christian Andersen fairy tales in the house when I was growing up. Someone must have read it (the binding was falling apart) but I don't think that it was me. I don't recall anything with this storyline. Yeah - I know that I should. That didn't keep me from enjoying this retelling immensely but I was also left wondering about details on how this differs from the original and how she got there. The author's comment on this in the acknowledgements ((view spoiler)) helped there. The acknowledgements are also where I learned that the author and I would practically be neighbors if I were still in North Carolina. There's a missed opportunity for author readings.
I started this yesterday. Also really enjoying it. I read a ton of fairy tales when I was little, but I don't remember this one specifically. Maybe it'll start to seem familiar as I get father in.
Ok, now I'm both curious to see what I do and don't remember from the original, and also very tempted just to go re-read the HCA story. I dunno about Andersen being (view spoiler). (only spoilery for very, very general plot elements)
I did end up reading The Snow Queen after I finished The Raven and the Reindeer. It was fascinating to see how many of the details from the H C Andersen story ended up in T Kingfisher's retelling, despite the different tone and focus of her version. (view spoiler)As far as (view spoiler)
I'm at 20% in The Raven and the Reindeer. When I got to the point dealing with (view spoiler), I was wondering if this was a secondary re-telling--introducing a revised version of Rapunzel (view spoiler)But then I re-read the original version of HCA's Snow Queen and realized that it was part of his story. Yet I wonder if HCA was influenced by Rapunzel.
OK, now I got to the reason why this book was nominated for Pride month and (view spoiler) I've also just gotten to (view spoiler)
I finished this a few days ago. I thought it was very well done as a retelling - as Raucous said, it managed to stay close to the original in many ways despite its differences. Like Shomeret, I loved both (view spoiler)
Shomeret wrote: "I've finished it and [spoilers removed]"Ahhh, yes, this would be amazing! I've always found it a shame that there isn't more (view spoiler)
Mod
Some questions to get us started:
-Who were your favorite characters?
-What did you think of the twist on the traditional story?
-What did you think of how it ended?
-What did you think of the setting?
Done! I love the Snow Queen story, and I loved this adaptation of it. T. Kingfisher has an amazing voice, and I really liked the way she wrote most of the characters. I thought the setting was great as well. I'm hoping I can get this from ILL to do a re-read soon, but in the meantime I'll look forward to what others have to say!
This was a fast and delightful read! I love the light tone of the narration, the humor. It was fun to follow Gerta's journey of selfdetermination.
I can't say anything about twists on the traditional story, I can't remember it well enough (is the part with the witch and the garden work in the fairy tale? This was one of my favourite scenes). The setting was lovely. As with the Winternight Trilogy I'm reading (Russian snowy forest setting, also retelling of fairy tales) I love reading about the white winterworld (as long as I'm on my comfy couch with my fluffy blanket).
The ending was open enough for my liking, a bit more dramatic on the actual victory over the Snow Queen wouldn't have been bad.
Favourite characters are, of course, Mousebone and the otters! All thumbs up for them.
What I could have done without (as so often) was the romance part.
But the foremost question on my mind arose when I read the acknowledgement: what is a German chocolate cake?
Gabi wrote: "But the foremost question on my mind arose when I read the acknowledgement: what is a German chocolate cake?"I can't remember that, but I'd guess Schwarzwälder Kirschtorte? I've seen people call it German chocolate cake as well as Black Forest cake.
Mod
https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/ger...
Well, you learn something very important about baked goods every day! :D
Thanks for the information, Allison. I've never heard of such a cake before o.O
Gabi wrote: "...I can't say anything about twists on the traditional story, I can't remember it well enough (is the part with the witch and the garden work in the fairy tale? This was one of my favourite scenes)...."The witch and the garden appear in the original tale as well although the details of that section are different. Instead of gardening (a theme in T Kingfisher stories) Gerta spends the time under the witch's spell in the original playing in the (mostly) flower garden. There are also changes in how she communicates with the garden, in the garden's motivation, and in how she escapes the witch. I found T Kingfisher's version clearer and more powerful (at least to my contemporary viewpoint).
Thank you, Raucous! I have to read the story. So far I could only find Grimm's fairy tales in our household, but I haven't been through all the shelves yet.I loved the recurring theme with the plant dreams a lot and how it helped achieve the victory in the end.
Allison wrote: "no, black forest gateau is black forest. German chocolate has coconut. https://sallysbakingaddiction.com/ger..."
I loved German chocolate cake growing up in Minnesota and had it for my birthday every year. Our version had the coconut chocolate buttercream frosting over the entire cake. More was better. But that was a long time ago. We made it for a recent birthday and I found it offensively sweet. You can't go home again...
Thank you for the link, Anna!The most prominent twists for me were:
Kay - in the original he was a kind one till he got hit by the shards. In Kingfisher's take he is just a selfish guy and Gerda therefore feels more naive in the beginning.
Gerda's journey is more by chance in the fairy tale, whereas Kingfisher lets her make a conscious decision to go looking for Kay. In this case Gerda feels more self-assured.
The killing of the reindeer and Gerda's shapeshifting is a heavy change. The scene of course has more emotional impact this way, Gerda's role is stronger and it gives an excuse for Jenna being on the journey.
And I'm very pleased that the tacky angels were replaced by talkative otters and the role of the raven was a more prominent one. :D
Gabi wrote: "... But the foremost question on my mind arose when I read the acknowledgement: what is a German chocolate cake?"This might make more sense under its original name: "German's chocolate cake." Samuel German was an American baker in the 1800s who developed a sweet baking chocolate that became a key ingredient of the recipe:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...
Raucous! You're terrific! THIS makes sense indeed.
I found it a beautiful tale as well. Can't really say anything about the original as (yes, hard to believe) I don't know it.What I liked most about the story was the similarities between the joys and perils of travelling and especially in the people you meet.
I also really liked how persistent Gerda was and how she kept on going - pretty hard nowadays to persist despite obstacles...
What a perfect first-of-December read this was. I found it thoughtful and funny, and a good story even though my only knowledge of the Snow Queen fairy tale was through the Wikipedia summary. XD I thought the descriptions of Gerta-as-a-reindeer and the reindeer road were so vivid, and those will stick with me.I loved the story's quiet kindness in how Gerta untangles her default assumptions about herself--like in the beginning, thinking she's not-like-other-girls, or how surely she's in love with Kay, or that anything asides heterosexuality exists--and creates new narratives in her life. It was a very lovely coming-of-age story, I thought.
Yes, I *loved* how affectionate Kingfisher was towards her characters and their foibles, and how realistically Gerta grows up psychologically. But was I the only one who thought "he had a FATHER this whole time?!?" at the end, wondering why in the world that father didn't help Gerta in the slightest, didn't give her a ride and some camping gear, didn't help her fight off bandits, etc.?
Of course, the story wouldn't be the story if he had, but still! It should have at least been explained that e.g. he doesn't believe in her Snow Queen story or something. And Kay's family doesn't look who brought him back, doesn't hug Gerta gratefully, nothing: they spot him, snatch him into the house, and bang the door closed again, without a single look for Gerta and Janna!
Even though I complain about this point, I still gave the book 5 stars. Especially for love-struck teenagers pining for someone who never cared for them, this would be such an amazing read. Also loved the way Janna showed her good qualities and feelings through action, through the way she supported Gerta to the literal end of the world.
In terms of why Kingfisher thinks Anderson would have been shocked: I believe it was because she changed the ending to a happy one (and it made total sense, too!), since she mentions his attachment to tragic endings in particular.
Thanks for picking it, everyone - I really enjoyed it. :)
Done! My favorite characters were Livli and Janna, and I particularly loved Gerta's link to plants. I wasn't familiar with the original, but the way the pieces fit together for the romance was immensely satisfying.I also found it a bit frustrating in the same way I've found some of Patricia A. McKillip's novels frustrating. Without more details -- about both Janna's inner experience of the events as well as the setting -- it felt opaque. This is one of those rare times when I actually wish the novel was just much longer: longer paragraphs, longer chapters, more background.
Mod
I just finished this earlier today and enjoyed it a lot. It’s always a little iffy whether I’ll enjoy fairytale-based books, and I felt some trepidation when I realized that was what I was getting into, but this one worked well for me.I’ll use Allison’s questions as a jumping-off point again. (I really appreciate these; they help me come up with something to say that isn’t just a rehash of my review.)
Who were your favorite characters?
Kay. No, no, I'm kidding! I liked Gerta quite a bit, despite not always thinking she made the best decisions. I loved Mousebones; he was so funny. I also adored Gran Aischa, the woman who told Gerta about Livli, and wished we had seen more of her. I liked Livli too.
What did you think of the twist on the traditional story?
I’ve never read the original story, at least not as far as I remember, so I can’t speak to that.
What did you think of how it ended?
I liked the happy ending, and that Gerta still managed to accomplish her original objective despite how little Kay deserved it. However, I was annoyed that we didn’t find out if the grandmothers were still alive. I was sad near the end when we found out Gerta couldn’t understand raven speech anymore, so I loved it when we learned Mousebones could speak human and just hadn’t wanted to before.
What did you think of the setting?
I didn’t have any strong feelings about it one way or another, really.
Other Thoughts
Was anybody else bothered by the introduction of the romance at all? I really wished the kissing part had come later, after the girls had gotten to know and like each other. I thought it was a little disturbing in the order it happened with Janna kissing her when Gerta still considered herself Janna’s captive and was still afraid of her. It seemed like Gerta was overwhelmed with the novelty of discovering girls could kiss each other and that she liked it. Given her history of questionable relationships (her infatuation with Kay despite his coldness), it didn’t feel like a good or healthy start for a relationship. Although I do believe they developed a closer and more genuine relationship as the story progressed, there was always some doubt in my mind as to whether it would have been happened the same way if Gerta had been more experienced or if Janna hadn’t started in with the kissing before they even knew each other.
Also, this thread has been very educational for me. I had no idea German Chocolate Cake was named based on a person and not the country. For the record, I hate coconutgunk, so I avoid German Chocolate Cake much like I would avoid any other plague.
YouKneeK, I had the same feelings about the romance. Not only the forced beginning (just imagine the robber girl would have been a robber boy, I guess there would have been an outcry), but I would have dearly loved if this would have been shown as a strong female friendship instead. Perhaps at the end with the hint of a romantic development in the future.This way it felt too much like Gerta stumbled from one heteronomy into another.
YouKneeK wrote: "Who were your favorite characters? ..."Mousebones (and Gerta)
Concerning the romance: I was a bit put off at first as well, but then I remembered my first kiss. It also happend so unexpectedly and I didn't even like the boy. And yet - it was amazing how good it felt. Still, it did not turn out well. However, back to Gerta and Janna, I liked how their relationship progressed - despite starting with a kiss it soon went deeper. Therefore, I was not bothered for too long...
Sabrina, I think that it does make sense to read it that way, and I agree that what started out more as a physical exploration eventually became deeper which is true enough to how some real life relationships start. I think it was Gerta’s status as a captive at the time that creeped me out the most, but also a wish to see Gerta learn from her experience with Kay and exercise some more caution in her relationships. Although I guess at that point in the story she still didn’t see anything wrong with her relationship with Kay.Gabi, I like your idea of it just being shown as a strong female friendship. It would have been awesome to see Gerta break off her infatuation with Kay of her own initiative, instead of it coming across as if she ditched Kay only because she found another relationship that she liked better.
I read the original story this morning. I got to it through a different link than the one provided above, and just comparing the first couple of paragraphs it looks like some of the wording was translated a little differently, so I’m not sure if there were any more significant differences. It has many of the more annoying fairytale traits that I typically dislike, but it was worth reading to better appreciate Kingfisher’s cleverness. She took little elements from the original story and wove them into her own version in what was usually a completely different way. I particularly laughed at (super minor spoiler for the original story) (view spoiler).
YouKneeK wrote: " ...I particularly laughed at (super minor spoiler for the original story) (view spoiler). ...":D Yes, I was so surprised that this idea came from the original. The only thing I liked in the HCA fairy tale better was the prologue with the spirits and the shards.
Gabi wrote: "YouKneeK, I had the same feelings about the romance. ... hereronomy ..."First, I agree about the romance with Jenna. Second, thanks for spurring me to look up the word "heteronomy".
Third, I don't have much else substantive to say about this book, except that I'm grateful the SFFBC is reading it this month -- I decided to try it, and really liked it. I'm woefully unfamiliar with Andersen's fairy tales (beyond the usual cultural background) and really enjoyed it.
I found the lyrical, poetic language similar to This Is How You Lose the Time War, which I also enjoyed. If you liked this book and are looking for a more quote-unquote adult novel and love story, I'd check that one out.
I finished it and liked but not loved it. I fully agree on "why cannot they be just friends" attitude but I thought it's just because I'm a grumpy old male, obsolete in my preferences :) I think Kay was done not very well - we see what he doesn't like and for whom he doesn't care but is it too hard to give something positive to his image? :)
Dan wrote: "Gabi wrote: "YouKneeK, I had the same feelings about the romance. ... hereronomy ..."First, I agree about the romance with Jenna. Second, thanks for spurring me to look up the word "heteronomy". ..."
^^' It was the only translation my dictionary gave me for the word I would have used in my own language. I don't know if it even is correct.
ETA: Thanks for the heads up with "Time War". I should pick that one up again.
Very interesting point with the heteronomy or Fremdbestimmtheit. But the way I read it was that Gerta was a very empathic personality type, always wondering very much about other people's opinions, concerns and well-being to the detriment of her own - a personality type that has strengths as well as weaknesses. Kay and the first witch represent characters willing to prey on those weaknesses and manipulate her through them (the book even mentions that the witch needed only very little magic because Gerta's wish to help and serve others was so strong that only a tiny extra push was needed). Janna is also one of those strong, decisive personalities Gerta likes, and kind of overwhelms and overpowers her at first - which is kind of questionable due to this also appealing to Gerta's tendency to be too compliant, but at the same time is the very way to make Gerta fall in love and forget about the guy who doesn't really care for her. But Janna (through her actions) then shows Gerta what it's really like to be cared for and sacrifices *for her*, always putting Gerta's wishes before her own, and allowing her to lead and make decisions, supporting her in being more assertive and self-assured. This helped Gerta stop being heteronous and start being autonomous. So overall, that made me very happy with the relationship and I thought it was fine. Plus: can you really expect a girl raised by cannibalistic bandits to understand the fine points of consent and subtle, polite wooing? I don't think so.
Also: I'm entirely hetero and yet this lesbian love story really moved and charmed me anyway, so that must mean the author did something right.
It was too sudden for my liking. Perhaps I'm too old to feel myself back into a teenage mind.YouKneeK had a strong point that this way it just felt that Gerta replaced one romantic notion with another, instead of freeing herself emotionally from Kay all on her own, which would have been the much more powerful message.
Mod
"pleasant easy-going prose"
It really was an easy, fun, story that you could picture reading again every winter.
Hank wrote: "Even though Oleksandr only gave it three stars I think what I liked best was what he said in his review"I try to use GR system with 3 stars "liked it". It was maybe more of 3.5
I really enjoyed this. For me, the romance didn’t seem too rushed, maybe I was thinking of it as a fairy tale where these things all go rather quickly. It was a quick easy read and enjoyable throughout.
I discovered Ursula Vernon (T Kingfisher) earlier this year and have read several of her books. If you've read "Minor Mage" and "Summer in Orcus" then this book will feel familiar -- adolescent walks a magical road with a variety of characters.The plot is secondary to the characters, as with other books. The books are all on the shorter side.
But even so, I have to give this 5 stars. The writing is great. The characters are very relatable and fun and quirky. The prose is descriptive and imaginative without being pretentious (IMHO). Somehow Vernon keeps everything earthy and grounded despite the fantasy setting. I never tire of how animals pop up in rich and varied caricatures. And I remember the characters and stories well after I finish reading.
I felt like this book in particular (Raven and Reindeer) had a strong narrative theme that kept a strong pace and Greta's transformation felt very real.
For me, Vernon's works are like a very rich dessert. It's probably best that they aren't too big :)
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club
Books mentioned in this topic
Breadcrumbs (other topics)This Is How You Lose the Time War (other topics)
The Raven and the Reindeer (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Anne Ursu (other topics)Patricia A. McKillip (other topics)
