Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Group Reads
>
Sylvester Group Read May 2019 Chapters 1-14
When I first listened to the Nicholas Rowe unabridged version I was taken aback by the rather heavy rural, uncultured accent he gave to Tom; but then it turns out R. Armitage does the same thing in the abridged version. Definitely lacking some town bronze! Rowe's version came out after Armitage's so perhaps they just decided to stick with the status quo? Jackie, I also have pretty much given up on the abridged version. As you say, frustrating. I've sort of gotten sucked back into listening to the unabridged audio... and I just listened to it less than a month ago!! Only Georgette Heyer books would have me doing such a thing!
I don’t understand giving Tom Orde such a strong accent. He was educated at Rugby.
Sometimes I wonder in amazement at how some of these audio narrators give voice to all the secondary characters in a book. I guess, for the most part, it's better to give them all distinct - and often odd! - voices, even if they're not quite accurate to the book. I suppose it's more entertaining for the listener to do it that way, as opposed to just reading in a monotone voice. (Although, some of these affected voices they use can be like nails on a blackboard for me!!)
That's a good point, Jane, it might just be a way to make sure listeners can easily tell who is speaking.
I've got the same cover as you, Rosina! SylvesterI've been so caught up in the story I didn't even notice the typos.
I think a heavy country accent would be a mistake for Tom (does he do a very funny one for Alice, though?). But I think the linking of class to accent didn't happen too much until the Victorians? I seem to remember Bill Bryson saying that the posh 'aaah' instead of 'a' (like in bath) was a Victorian invention, but it's been a long time since my last Bryson binge! Wikipedia isn't vey helpful, although it does tell me that Gladstone, Prime Minister in the 19th century, had a regional accent. Every day's a school day!
Jay-me (Janet) wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Hi we are getting a bit off topic here.:)Would anyone like me to start a thread for Heyer names?"
Yes please - and names used in other Regency books (I have a bee ..."
Ok - I'll put in in General so we aren't restricted to Heyer names then.
I don't understand the pronunciation of John Keighley's name. Sounds like "Keithly"?but then, I am surprised by what I assume is spelled "Ma'am" pronounced as "Mom" (not even "Mum").
I am finally to the Blue Boar Inn where the real fun begins.
I think it would be pronounced KAY-ly.Funny factoid about “Ma’am”: for ordinary people, it’s MAHM (closer to Mom), but for the Queen it’s pronounced more in the American style, like MAAM.
Jackie wrote: "I don't understand the pronunciation of John Keighley's name. Sounds like "Keithly"?but then, I am surprised by what I assume is spelled "Ma'am" pronounced as "Mom" (not even "Mum").
I am finall..."
Keighley is a town in Yorkshire near Haworth (Bronte sisters lived in Haworth) and is pronounced Keithley.
Jackie wrote: "I don't understand the pronunciation of John Keighley's name. Sounds like "Keithly"?but then, I am surprised by what I assume is spelled "Ma'am" pronounced as "Mom" (not even "Mum").
I am finall..."
Add me to the Keighley is pronounced 'Keithley' group. At least that's how friends of ours with that last name pronounced it.
very good info, thank you all. so it is worth listening to the audio version even if abridged because I am learning!
On this reading I am being blown away by the detail and precision of Heyer's characterization. Both hero and heroine are unique and complex people, with triggers that we understand because Heyer has filled in their backgrounds and the textures of their lives. For me, this is Heyer at the top of her game. What a change from the last book!I loved the moment when Phoebe went from being "Sparrow" to being "my Sparrow."
Interesting about "Keithley"! Thanks for the info. British names are sneaky that way: in the area I'm writing about, there's a village spelled Leigh. LEE, you'd think, right? But no, it's pronounced LIE.
Am starting this today. From the comments here sounds like it's enjoyable.
Abigail wrote: "On this reading I am being blown away by the detail and precision of Heyer's characterization. Both hero and heroine are unique and complex people, with triggers that we understand because Heyer ha..."Good point, Abigail! Definitely a good change from the last book!!
And, "my Sparrow"..... so sweet. Do you know when (page/chapter) he added the "my"??
I live near a village called Leigh and it is LEE... I don't think there's a rule, you just have to listen to the locals lolI still 'Keithley' as Kaylee, it's stuck in my head even knowing it's wrong.
Not sure which chapter, Jane, bit it's very early on--when they are still at the inn.
I am just starting chapter 9 and I'll be interested to see what I think by the end of the book, but my current feeling is that this section of the book at The Inn (The Blue Boar) is the very best part of the book. I just finished the chapter where Phoebe tells off Sylvester when he assumes Keighley should go for the doctor and she spells it out: he can't care for the man at all or he wouldn't have taken him in the open carriage with his "epidemic" cold. He realizes she's right, too! So they are just getting to know each other, which is fresh and interesting, and there is a lot of humor in these scenes.
Abigail wrote: "Not sure which chapter, Jane, bit it's very early on--when they are still at the inn."they really become close very quickly at The Inn.
how many other Heyer books have a similar situation? Sprig Muslin comes to mind, and The Talisman Ring.
Frederica? or am I thinking of Arabella. Many books have scenes in an inn but I mean where The Couple ends up somehow stranded in one and that's where they really get to know each other.
Agreed, these are some of my favorite scenes in the book! So much fun, and being away from the Ton allows Sylvester to see Phoebe’s humor, warmth, intelligence- she does much better out of the censorious glare!
Susan in NC wrote: "Agreed, these are some of my favorite scenes in the book! So much fun, and being away from the Ton allows Sylvester to see Phoebe’s humor, warmth, intelligence- she does much better out of the cens..."So true!
Not quite the same situation, but in Devil's Cub the hero and heroine are traveling together and staying at inns for most of the book.
it might be harder to find a book where the characters aren't staying in an inn for part of the book!
Susan in NC wrote: "Agreed, these are some of my favorite scenes in the book! So much fun, and being away from the Ton allows Sylvester to see Phoebe’s humor, warmth, intelligence- she does much better out of the cens..."this is so true: he would never have fallen for her if he'd only seen her in her home or in society.
Abigail wrote: "Not sure which chapter, Jane, bit it's very early on--when they are still at the inn."I just found him saying "my Sparrow" in Chapter 11. If he said it earlier, I didn't notice.
Keighley is a town in Yorkshire, west of Leeds and it is pronounced Keithly. I have always assumed John's surname was pronounced the same way. There is another place Leigh which is pronounced Lee. When horses neigh - it's pronounced 'nay'. Go figure!
We have some odd pronunciations and often there are no real rules to help. I mean why would you pronounce Leicester as Lester and not Lie-Sess-ter or Ma'am as Mum or Kirkcudbright as Kikoobree?
reply | flag *
Jackie wrote: "I am up to chapter 7 where it's a very funny scene [spoilers removed] and Sylvester comes off as likable here by enjoying the whole thing. I am basically READING now as I find the abridge audio v..."
I love this masterly scene! All that was needed was the news to be brought to Austerby but Heyer turned the situation into an opportunity to produce these lovely little insights into the personalities of her characters. And to give voice, through Mrs. Orde, to the reader's feelings about Lady Marlow. Wonderful!
I have just begun, and I am already liking it better than my first or second reads.Especially love when the unnamed (for the moment, at least) spaniel recognizes that the clothing Sylvester is wearing indicates that he will be attending to business inside rather than adventuring outside. My puppies always give my pants a good sniff and can tell whether I am planning to stay in the house, work in the yard, go to work or out and about, or take them for a walk.
And GH is certainly dropping a lot about how unpleasant Sylvester is within the first ten pages. We hear that he has spoken out of irritation about his nephew, is irritated by his sister-in-law, and speaks insultingly towards his cousin (his mother's companion) and considers her an inept servant.The Duchess, on the other hand, is kind, patient, loving, and not overbearing at all.
Only on chapter three but I'm already drawn into the story.
Critterbee, I also loved the dog knowing they weren't going out by what Sylvester was wearing. I liked the part where Phoebe tells Tom she felt much more comfortable with Sylvester once they had argued.
I am enjoying this part of the book so much I almost don't want to move on, but I'm in chapter 12 and Phoebe is headed for London so I might as well keep reading.
Sylvester thinks he doesn't like Phoebe and keeps listing her faults in his thoughts, but he should have realized it wasn't true by the fact that he was ready to help her get to her Grandmother despite all the inconvenience and embarrassment, not to mention Tom's father telling him how wrong he was to do it.
The scene where Tom's presence keeps Sylvester from snubbing his father is complex and a good indication of the good affect both Tom and Phoebe are already having on him.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Keighley is a town in Yorkshire, west of Leeds and it is pronounced Keithly. I have always assumed John's surname was pronounced the same way. There is another place Leigh which is pronounced Lee...."
Very true- the unexpected pronunciations are really noticeable on audiobooks! I’ve read books two or three times, but not realized until I listen to a British narrator on an audiobook say a person or place name that I’ve been mispronouncing it.
Mod
.... or a farmhouse! (Thinking of Frederica in particular but are there are not others?) As Jackie says, a favourite GH device for getting the couple on more intimate terms - as like as not with someone injured.
Susan in NC wrote: "Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Keighley is a town in Yorkshire, west of Leeds and it is pronounced Keithly. I have always assumed John's surname was pronounced the same way...."I suspect there must also be quite a few regional variations in the UK, as in the US. In NYC the Tremont section of the Bronx is pronounced "TREE-munt", while in Boston Tremont Street is pronounced more like "Treh-mont" with a short e and no emphasis.
I don’t know if I have just fallen into her thread of books that use inns & such locations to allow the characters to become acquainted without the formal restrictions of society, but this about the fourth one I’ve read in recent months to use that, and an injury. I don’t mind the repetition though, each one plays out in different ways, and is always enjoyable. I started this last night, got home from lengthy travel. We took train from Emeryville, CA, to Salt Lake City, the California Zephyr. Got into SLC @ 3:15 a.m. My daughter flew in from NYC, rented a car, & picked us up. We drove up to Park City, Utah, to stay in a time-share. She got a special offer through her vacation company & invited us to stay. We went from sunny, upper 60s/70s in the Bay Area to snow, we had snowstorms while we were there & was on the 20s at night. Wasatch Mountains are quite beautiful, but I had a case of Acute Mountain Sickness, first time in my life, I’ve been up & down mountains throughout my life, but this knocked me out. I did feel well enough on John’s and my 37th anniversary to have dinner in The Tree Room at Sundance, it was perfect. The three of us had a lovely evening. Train home was delayed 3 hours by a “cornucopia of disasters” as the engineer put it, which did not help my feeling of exhaustion. We had a weekend in Sacramento, John is a U.S. Rowing referee & worked the Southwest Regional Junior Championship all weekend, dawn to dusk. I went straight to bed upon arrival home, my cat was very pleased to see me (well taken care of by my son, but it’s not the same) and she has been glued to my side ever since I got home. She keeps pushing my book out of the way to get more “scritches”.
It is grey & cool today, feeding my backyard birds & watering my flowers. Going to put back to my zero gravity chair to read, recover from my vacation.
Just started this today. Sylvester is a favorite of mine but I was undecided whether to go for another read this time around. I thought, "I'll start and see" -- yep, I'm in! A thought that I don't think I've noticed or explored before -- in many of Heyer's books, the hero (if he has a title) is referred to by his title: Alverstoke, Cardross, Rotherham. Sylvester is just Sylvester. That tells me, right from the start of this read, that we are to be interested in the person, not the duke. His title (Salford) is mentioned only once in the opening chapters, and is not used by anyone connected with him.
And Heyer does a great job of making him appealing and unlikeable at the same time.
He is nice to his servants -- because it benefits him. His "singularly charming smile ... ensured for him, no matter how exacting might be his demands, the uncomplaining exertions of his servants. He was perfectly well aware of that ... ."
He loves his mother -- and he has probably the best mother Heyer ever wrote -- but he is irritated by her patience and kindness to her companion. He tolerates his sister-in-law but has no respect for her. And he fully expects that any woman he offers marriage to will be thrilled to accept him. "He knows his worth too well!"
I can't count how many times I've read "Sylvester" since I first picked it up along about 1790-ish, but I've so enjoyed re-reading it! I haven't read it in a good 30 years, so it was a delightful voyage of rediscovery! We have a heroine who is a little shy, but NOBODY's pushover...except for her overbearing stepmama, perhaps, AND we have a hero who is actually pretty nice, has a good sense of humor (most of the time), and who is just flat a lot of fun! AND the supporting cast of characters are very well done, too.
Question - What is a Recency "country dance"? Sylvester is not so insensitive as to not participate in the country dances at a ball. Would they be like what we know as a square dance? Or?
Mary wrote: "Question - What is a Recency "country dance"? Sylvester is not so insensitive as to not participate in the country dances at a ball. Would they be like what we know as a square dance? Or?"From an interesting site on the history of Regency dances: "The dances of the Regency era come from the long tradition of English Country Dances and share their inheritance with Scottish Country Dancing, but the dancing is smoother with an impression of swift lightness. Partners face each other in a line, and dance a sequence of elaborate figures as they work their way from the top of the dance to the bottom and back again. These are known as longways dances, or long dances. There were also round dances of various forms, though most of these were not danced by the Regency period."
https://www.regencydances.org/history...
This is really fun! Demonstrations of individual Regency dance steps: https://www.regencydances.org/steps.php
And an animation showing the patterns of a longways country dance:
https://www.regencydances.org/index.php
I think once he 'gets over himself' he'll be ok. He had come to 'look her over' made me think of being at a horse sale!!
Chapter 14 ends with Phoebe and Sylvester meeting again at her grandmother's house. He is gone dancing with one of his possible wife candidates, and found her too complacent!
Jackie, gotta love it when a man realizes that all the qualities he thought he wanted in the "ideal" wife just plain bore him silly!
Yes and at the same time, Phoebe is innocently realizing how much she wishes she had Sylvester there to share humorous stories with, as her grandmother does not appreciate them!
I'm jumping into Sylvester now - better late than never! Second-time read for me. I got up to Chapter 5 last night.
I envy you, Tadiana, only the second time. You'll love it, I suspect.
I'm getting through this very slowly and I don't know why. I'm enjoying the story but not inclined to pick it up too often in the day.
Hi to get the ball rolling, I've moved some of the name comments to the new https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... thread.None of the comments were spoilers - I just thought they would be happier in their new home. :)
I've finally caught up and read 1 to 14. I'm not taking time right now to read everyone's comments here but will share some thoughts - this is a reread for me although my memory of it is more general than specific. I don't think I have any spoilers here -- if anyone thinks so, I'll hide whatever is the problem.
I'm enjoying it immensely, but then when I re-read it a couple years ago (for first time since the 1970s), I was pretty much enchanted by it. It was practically discovering it again for the first time. This time, I'm reading more critically, and with an eye to discussing it.
I love how Heyer holds off introducing Phoebe until Chapter 4 - only having her vaguely mentioned earlier. Having it start with Sylvester gives us a chance to make our own judgment about him, to see the warmth and humor that isn't so evident to outsiders. We next see him from his mother's eyes - someone who loves him and sees perhaps his best side. But we also see the flaws and shields, the impatience, aloofness, and arrogance that so many only see in him.
Only after this are we introduced to a true outsider view of Sylvester, and as the Wicked Uncle indeed! Ianthe and Sylvester are 2 people who never could get along. He does not fall for her stratagems, and she is everything he dislikes and isn't the brightest bulb in the deck either. They grate on each other like nails on a chalkboard. Reminds me of a partner in my old law firm - the man aggravated me to no end. I have to say, I see myself in Sylvester!
And now enters Phoebe, who has cast him as the villain in her soon to be published book. Do we love Phoebe and her spirit?! Again, Phoebe is introduced while among those who know her best -- and we see her strengths and weaknesses. Again, Heyer is giving us a chance to form our own opinion of Phoebe - and a sympathetic one at that. Her spirit is suppressed but not completely, strong enough to plot her escape from her bad environment and make her own way. Phoebe's youth and inexperience create interesting hurdles for her, but from the minute you meet her in the schoolroom with her sisters, you just know that she's going to somehow succeed and we're going to enjoy the adventure.
The whole visit by Sylvester to Phoebe's home really is just the catalyst to get them out of their milieu and into an adventure where they can take the true measure of each other, plant the seeds for the future.
And what a milieu it is! I adored the whole time at the Blue Boar! And Alice the Landlady's daughter! I could just see and hear her!
Now we are in London, the time at the Blue Boar provided the foundations for Sylvester and Phoebe to find their way to each other. Phoebe needs to find her feet, mature a bit, and get some 'town bronze' if she's going to end up as Sylvester's duchess. Right now they are too far apart in experience with society and life and the world that Sylvester inhabits. Plus there is that book to contend with...
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Devil's Cub (other topics)Sylvester (other topics)
Sylvester, or The Wicked Uncle (other topics)
Sylvester or The Wicked Uncle (other topics)
Sylvester: or The Wicked Uncle (other topics)
More...
I am basically READING now as I find the abridge audio version so frustrating.