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Servant of the Underworld
Group Reads Discussions 2020
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"Servant of the Underworld" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*
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I'll be starting this over the weekend. Really looking forward to talking about it here!
Mod
I’m getting it from Audible so I’ll start as soon as I’m done with Neuromancer.
I listened to this last year and will be lurking a bit in the thread to see what all of you think of the book.
I started this yesterday. So far so good :)
I'm a big reader of mysteries and I am super interested in the combination of a mystery investigation set in the Aztec culture and mythology. I read the first chapter last night and feel like it is a promising start. Happy to find a glossary and cast of characters in the back of my copy too.
*opens cover**flips pages*
*double checks for map*
*confirms absence of map*
*flips more pages*
*double checks for prologue*
*confirms absence of prologue*
Such radical alterations of the fantasy genre!!! :)
I'm through chapter 4 now and mostly enjoying it. I didn't realize it would be such a standard who-done-it detective narrative.
Mod
*flips pages*
*double checks for map*
*confirms absence of map*
*flips more pages*
*double checks for prologue*
*confirms absence of prologue*
Such radical alterations of the fantasy..."
LOL!
How can we know where or when or who we are without at least a dozen pages of reference materials before the story starts!
Allison wrote: "How can we know where or when or who we are without at least a dozen pages of reference materials before the story starts! "Dramatis personae, maps, epigraphs, prologues, prologues to the prologues, appendices, glossaries: I want it all!
There is a nice cast of characters and glossary at the end of my edition of this novel, which I only just found. It's proving very useful for figuring out this really fascinating world and magic system.
I blazed through this and am almost done. I am really enjoying it! I also hadn't realized it was a mystery, so that was a little disorienting at first, but it's a very vivid world.
I'm through Ch 4 also, and really liking it. I enjoy fantasy-mystery stories, and this one so far is great.
24% (a little ways into chapter 6), still having fun seeing the details in this world, (view spoiler)
Meredith wrote: "24% (a little ways into chapter 6), still having fun seeing the details in this world, [spoilers removed]"I’m about halfway through and also really enjoying how the mythology and culture is coming to play in what would otherwise be a run of the mill murder mystery. It makes me wish I had more than a passing recollection of Aztec history from middle school.
I also totally agree re: main character! (view spoiler)
Lesley wrote: "Meredith wrote: "24% (a little ways into chapter 6), still having fun seeing the details in this world, [spoilers removed]"I’m about halfway through and also really enjoying how the mythology and..."
I agree, I wish I had more background knowledge about Aztec history. I love the many details in the story, making the scenes and people very real, (view spoiler)
End of chapter 7, (view spoiler)
Mod
I'll get back with questions when I can think straight, but please share your thoughts or your own questions!
Done, let me know if you want anything else added in the first post.
Okay, this is an all-time first for me. Having listened to the audiobook this time for a re-read, I actually liked the book significantly less than when I read it the first time. The first time through it was 4-5 stars for me. Now, I gave it 3 stars and felt like I was being generous. The narrator for the audiobook had an English accent, as I mentioned in the spoiler-free thread, and it gave an overall Sherlock Holmes-y quality to the read that felt totally inappropriate given the setting. But going along with that, listening to the book instead of just reading it (often late at night in bed with my Kindle Paperwhite) made me much more aware of how the conversations played out and the dialogue felt super anachronistic and just... not what I wanted throughout the whole book. I know this isn't trying to be a super accurate historical novel or anything, but given the setting, it was jarring how often phrases came out in very modern and even American the characters sounded.
Placing these words in the mouth of an English accent exacerbated the problem to the point where it was almost grating to listen to as I went on. It just made everything feel off and wrong.
I went in expecting to clarify whether it was a 4 or 5 star read for me and probably read the rest of the series and now I don't think I will. Like I said, this is the first time -ever- that I've liked a book less on a re-read in which I listened to it. Normally my perception is minimally improved slightly. I feel frustrated and disappointed by what I was expecting to be one of the more enjoyable reads of late in any book club I'm in.
Edit: I just thought of another word I wanted to use! Generic! The book felt much more generic this time around, which was hugely disappointing to me. I studied history in college and would read books on Mesoamerica in my free time (I still do, on occasion), and to have the Aztec culture boiled down into a somewhat generic soup of generic mystery with the occasional Mesoamerican word or theme thrown in was just so disappointing. In fact, I want to go back and downgrade it another star now. Sorry I'm such a downer.
I abandoned it, but this was my problem too. I almost felt like it was a random mystery novel with various words search and replaced with Aztec names and words. Of course there were some unique elements like the magic, etc. but not enough to make this feel worth it for me to spend more time on.
The book is currently on Kindle Unlimited as Read & Listen. When I checked last month, it was just the ebook and the whole series was available to read on KU. Now the 1st book is available as R&L and the rest have to be purchased. I listened to the audio. John Telfer is a good narrator but a bad fit for the story. His narration threw me out of the setting on a consistent basis. Until I realized that the setting I imagined was more like a Greek/Roman mythology than Aztec lore. Once that was put into place, I just went with the flow and the story became a modern Greek/Roman style myth.
The parts I enjoyed the most was towards the end where Acatl deals with the underworld.
I liked Acatl & the ideas for the book but I had to turn my brain off to listen to it.
Despite the use of Aztec names for the characters and city, I did not feel like I experienced a tale within the stated time period. There were attempts to make it a natural part of the story but I did not think it was well established.
So I'm about 30% in, and I have to say the story so far is interesting. More so than I thought. 1. I hate how many poor living souls have to be hurt in the making of this tale. All those beautiful animals just slaughtered. Ugh. I am glad there's not much human sacrifice, but my mind just goes there every time something, anything, is being killed for no real reason. (Okay, magic is a reason, but still).
2. Right now the story feels quite aimless. Acatl is running around, from one place to another, usually too late to do anything significant. The stakes are going higher and higher. We finally have a true culprit in sight... but this is only 30% into the book so I'm open for a bait-and-switch.
3. I'm loving all the little Aztec tidbits that immerse us into this world, but I'm also super duper creeped out by this entire society. The misogyny, the weird class system, how the priest is looked down upon (I thought all priests were especially important in Aztec society?) and so on. I'm a bit tired of these things in the books I read. I think I might need to take a break soon and read some Becky Chambers or something.
I'm only about halfway, but favorite part so far is that capybaras are mentioned! I watch capybara videos in extreme times of anxiety, preferably ones where they are bathing. It relaxes me and makes me feel like all is well in a world where these magnificent creatures exist ^_^
I'm warning you AdB, if you kill off even a single capybara, I'm two-starring this!
Mod
Enjoyed the first half a lot then it sort of sputtered along. the bickering between Acatl and Neutemoc got really old to me. On the whole it was an interesting story.The large number of animal sacrifices bothered me.
Mod
1. Did you learn or feel like you learned anything about Aztec/Nahuatl culture and mythology?
2. Would you call this urban fantasy, pure fantasy or historical fiction/fantasy?
3. What worked for you? What didn't?
4. Overall thoughts?
I nearly didn't pick it up cause of the mostly negative impressions in this group. But I'm really glad I changed my mind (after all, I already had bought it). I enjoyed the novel a lot! In the afterword I read that the author was inspired by Christian Jacq's Egypt novels. I've only read one of those quite some time ago but I read a lot of Lindsey Davis' Roman detective novels in my 20ies and "Servant of the Underworld" reminded me a lot of them (plus the magic). So I instantly got that well known, settled in feeling while reading which made it into quite a comfort read. It is much lighter than most of the books I've read during the last year(s) and I hadn't realised how much I craved for something light.Plus, I liked the take on mesoamerican mythology here a lot, lot more than in "Gods of Jade and Shadow". I'll definitely get the next one.
It definitely picked up for me. I struggled at the beginning, but now I've finished up with the trial and the mysterious attacks on the estate. The story has a new energy and seems to be moving in a better direction for me. I'm eager to see what's next.
1. Did you learn or feel like you learned anything about Aztec/Nahuatl culture and mythology?I read the afterword when I was about 30% into the book. I am glad that Bodard researched the Aztec empire so extensively. I had previously read the Diana Tregarde mysteries which are the only other books I've read with Aztec culture, so this was a nice revisit for me. I felt there was far too much blood sacrifice for my personal tastes, and so I support her decision to tone that down a bit from what history tells us. I felt there was a lot of little details and nuance to the world-building that I enjoyed. However I would have loved a bit more broad brush strokes to fill in the rest of the canvas as well.
I found the detail that the sacrifices to the gods are mostly volunteers quite interesting. It's a way to run and hide from a mistake you made, but mostly the people lead to sacrifice that we see seem to be content with their lot. I wonder how much it would change our society to have this exodus from a hard life available to those who wish it?
Also, why is it called The Fifth World? I guess the others are Mictlan, Tlalocan, the Heavens, and...? Interesting to me that multiple gods can reside in one of these worlds, and yet not only be consorts. I feel like reading a book on Aztec religion now.
2. Would you call this urban fantasy, pure fantasy or historical fiction/fantasy?
I think I would call this pre-historic fantasy mixed with urban. Mostly because we in the western world have this idea that without modern day cities it's not real history, no matter that Aztec's appeared quite late in all timelines considering. Urban because we actually spend more time in a city-scape that is left to our imagination, with a few nuanced details thrown in. I would have appreciated more building / street / market / people descriptions from when Acatl is walking around. Just to narrate a bit more of what he was seeing overall.
3. What worked for you? What didn't?
In particular all the sacrifice was too much. I don't like seeing so many creatures being killed. I get why Bodard made the decision to link her magic system with that, but I would have wished for less.
I am not loving the genderist society either. I've been reading too many books of late in which women are kept under the boot heel of men and are not allowed to do their own thing. It's no longer interesting. The fate for Huei when Neutemoc's death was pretty much set in stone was just so saddening. I'm annoyed that Huei's decision was to punish her husband mistress rather than look to him directly. It's a classic: blame the other woman when you should be blaming your own marriage choices.
And since Acatl is a priest, he makes no money? He has no respect? And thus no power aside from magic? It is all a bit strange. That is part of reading about a different culture, of course, though it doesn't seem very logical to me. I really did think that the high priest of the god of death and the underworld would be the most feared in Aztec culture before reading this book.
I do love a lot of the weird stuff of the magic system. The way Acatl described waiting for the hits of cold to his system to announce the approach of the Wind of Knives is just great. How he's just randomly followed or attacked by strange creatures he has heard of or never knew existed is wonderful. I love the weird prayers that don't rhyme (I feel like most authors would have made them rhyme) and can do so many varied things. This is a mix of hard and soft magic in which a lot is possible, but not everything - as fickle as the gods who supply the power.
On that note, meeting the goddess who lives in that hidden house just felt so *wrong*. Long-lived all-powerful beings are always whacky, but she was so creepy. In comparison, the literally gods of death were fine.
I think it's a testament to how well Bodard can write characters that I can say I really despise Neutemoc. He is everything that is callous evil: arrogant, letting his ego guide him, prone to violence, wanting to twist the world to fit his viewpoint, not changing his mind even when presented with facts and so on. You'd think he'd care more about being sentenced to death... like it might change his mind on a few things.
I like that I have another book to recommend for long-lived gods now, though!
4. Overall thoughts?
I'm glad I joined in with a read-along again! I would never have picked up this story on my own, even though Bodard did an AMA on /r/fantasy recently (I'd have picked up some of her newer stuff instead). I do love visiting a completely different culture to the one we typically see in fantasy, even if I don't agree with all their choices. Once I got the hang of the names and the major deities it was easy enough to read as well (although the names really are a mouthful). I feel like this culture badly needs something else for men to do, that isn't just killing for war or killing in the name of religion. Perhaps art? Theater? Financial acquisitions and mergers? (Though I imagine all that is done by slaves).
I feel like Acatl was an interesting but good protagonist choice: although a farmboy-turned-would-be-hero trope hides under his veneer, he is mature enough, and has a high enough position in the social hierarchy so as not to make this another coming-of-age novel where someone is just discovering their magical talent. But he also did not want the position of High Priest, and thus neglects a lot of his duties and the life outside of what he directly has to do for his god. Because of this it is still interesting for us as we discover a lot of the city with him, the courts, the other temples, etc. At times I was wondering how much he really ought to know... he really ought to apply himself to be a better socializer for instance. And his major flaw of never asking for any aid is quite irksome, especially when he literally had no one left to turn to, but could not face the world-ending threat on his own.
I love a good detective novel. Most of them are garbage, since I can predict the ending a mile off. This one, however, kept me in suspense for a long time. It threw a lot of red herrings around, but in a fashion that it wasn't apparent which is a herring and which is the true path. A bit like a real life investigation. The story itself was well written, with an interesting plot that I thought was done with when I was only about halfway through reading the book (I really did think they would find the priestess before Neutemoc was released).
I didn't much enjoy a lot of the dark stuff: ritual sacrifice, blood magic, female subjugation to the whims of males, and so on, so I will only give this 4/5 stars. I might continue the series, but perhaps not. The constant death is quite dreary.
And with that, let's have a spelling competition! Whoever can spell 3 of the god(des)s names without looking them up, wins an obsidian dagger.
Mod
When my IRL book club read this one, I felt decidedly meh about it. I enjoyed the Aztec setting, but the main character is overly reluctant and the language was stiff. I think her Universe of Xuya work is better.
Allison wrote: "Xeni, the Nahuatl religion believed that the world had been made and destroyed 4 times. Interestingly, like in the Bible, there is a water genesis and a fire genesis. And this is the fifth time the..."That makes so much more sense. Now I understand why the water-world goddess at the end mentioned how she had ruled a world, but flooded it. And also her husband Tlaloc had done the same. I thought they might have been talking about the Myth of the Great Flood but it didn't quite fit.
Mod
Like others, the main character and story feel a bit flat.
I just finished it. It was an interesting read, but didn't inspire me to continue with the series. I am a fan of de Bodard's SciFi books, but this one just didn't ha the same impact which is odd because I love mysteries. The ending also seemed a bit to implausible and too pat.
I also like de Bodard's space stuff but DNFed this. So please spoil the ending to me: who dunnit?
Eva wrote: "I also like de Bodard's space stuff but DNFed this. So please spoil the ending to me: who dunnit?"(view spoiler)
No need for spoiler tags in this thread! :)
I read this two years ago, back then my review was : I mainly picked up this book because it is extremely rare to find books with an Aztec setting. I liked the original world building/story elements in this book. I can imagine that for someone who likes the blend of mystery/historical fiction this is a four/five star read.
One of the reasons I rated it three stars is that for me alone the main character's arc was very slow paced dragging the plot with it. I couldn't understand why Acatl acted the way he did most times, always in doubt whether he should act, blending aloofness and insecurity with resourcefulness. It was part of the story, but it was also shocking how Acatl and others sacrificed animals all the time without a second thought on the waste and cruelty of their way of life, and how quickly they dismissed people's deaths as an every moment occurrence. I wonder if the Aztecs were really like that or if they were more like us, willingly ignorant of the brutality of our world most of the time? An original, thought-provoking and interesting read in any case.
I see that I agree with several of you here. :) I finished this a couple of days ago, and I liked the premise of this story, and I loved how it was set in a magical version of the Aztec world. I particularly liked the use of Aztec words and names. And, even if I'm not a big fan of crime mysteries, it was interesting in this setting. So, I felt the start was promising, but in the end, it felt a bit like something was missing. I think I'd like to see the characters a bit more fleshed out, or perhaps I would have connected more to them if I got more under their skin or understood their motives a bit better, I'm not sure. Also, Acatl's thoughts got a bit repetitive at times, and I felt like some of that could have been tightened up. All in all, it was entertaining, though, and I gave it three stars. I've not yet decided if I'll read the whole series or not.
I thought the book worked really well as a whodunnit, as I really wanted to get to the end and find out (even if I didn't totally enjoy the ending).I enjoyed the descriptions, and definitely remember the fact that they ate worms and frogs.
The main character is interesting but I read another review that said he whinged a lot (family, brother, job, etc). I agree.
This is possibly the reason I might not read the other books in the series though I'd be interested in knowing if he starts appreciating life more.
I am happy to have read this book though - a good way to escape into another world.
Lili wrote: "The main character is interesting but I read another review that said he whinged a lot (family, brother, job, etc). I agree."I feel like I understood where Acatl was coming from a lot more than most of you guys. He is also a bit of a cliche main character: a Richard Mayhew dragged into London Below, or a Zacharay Ezra Rawlins pulled into the Starless Sea. Things happen to these people, and they react, try to catch up, but are just as content to sit in a room and wait for someone to pull them out if that is what the story needs.
It can be really annoying to read this kind of character (I really could not stand Mayhew) if they don't even act with a bit of agency. For me, I could understand Acatl's family problems on a deep level. I could understand why he was so loathe to accept the mantle of power, after we were shown how his parents couldn't stand his existence.
The culture that couldn't accept him as a non-warrior still exists. He is given a place where he need not actively fight, but in a way his spirit is broken; he took in a lot of those toxic messages his parents tossed his way, that his brother espoused for years. If the culture was more accepting of other roles for their citizens, if there weren't such strict gendered roles, if there wasn't so much sacrifice and death everywhere, perhaps his parents could have raised him to be more open and thus willing to be more active in life.
I don't know if I'll continue the series either, but it isn't due to Acatl for me. He works well with what he has been given.
♥Xeni♥ wrote: "Lili wrote: "The main character is interesting but I read another review that said he whinged a lot (family, brother, job, etc). I agree."I feel like I understood where Acatl was coming from a lo..."
This is a great description and I agree largely, but its also part of what I think made it fall a bit flat for me. Because of the ideosyncracies, the language quips, his internal thoughts and processes, etc. it played liked an english mystery with aztec curtains. I will not go so far as to say Square peg - Round hole, but I did not feel immersed in aztec culture. Again it felt like a dressed up english mystery.
I read this a couple years back and really enjoyed it. I think my 5 stars were largely influenced by the world-building which I really got into. Here's my previous review. I think it echoes some of the comments above, especially about Acatl. "A few weaknesses, including the main character is whiny and takes a while to get his act together (though points for when other characters call him out for that) and a 'cast of thousands' which makes it hard to remember when someone comes back into the story line: who are they? where did I see them before? what is their motivation? But, the world building is outstanding, I enjoy the fluidity between the regular world and that of the gods, plus the many details of beliefs and politics and every day minutiae makes it worth following along the mystery to its resolution. I do wish there had been a map of the city since the main character travels around to many districts."
This was formerly a buddy read so there's spoiler tags on some early posts, but they should not be used for the group read discussion from here on out! Share and enjoy!