The Trollope Project-Final Thoughts

[Frances, Moderator]

Now that we've come to the end of our 2 series, here is our chance to discuss the entire project.

Did you have a favourite series? A favourite novel? A favourite character or couple?

Are you hoping to read more Trollope soon, or do you feel you've had your fill for a while?

What did you particularly like about Trollope's style? What didn't you like?

What are your thoughts on Trollope's politics? What would you imagine his views on an increasingly egalitarian society would be? His views on the role of women in society?

Lots to consider, please share your thoughts on any or all of the above.

[Madge UK]

Re Trollope's politics: I think if Trollope had lived in our times he would have involved himself in the Brexit debate as a Remainer because he was very attached to Ireland. Although Phineas Finn shows a distrust of Home Rule and Republicanism I think Trollope would have wanted to have free movement between Northern Ireland and the South, Eire, as he lived and worked in both areas. He and his wife also frequently travelled to Europe so he would have appreciated the advantages belonging to the EU would bring, including cheaper wine! He would also like the idea of pet passports should he wish to take his beloved horses or dogs to the continent.

Trollope was very much in love with his intelligent wife, who helped him a lot with his work. I think that she might have become a feminist and that he would support her and equal rights for women if he was exposed to such ideas.

(My favourite novels in the series are Phineas Finn and Phineas Redux because of the Irish politics.)

[Lori, Moderator]

I enjoyed the politics in the Palliser series, but I didn't enjoy the novels themselves as much as the Barchester series.

My favorite, by far, has been Barchester Towers. The rivalry between the archdeacon and the Proudies/Slope simply cannot be matched. The archdeacon is someone I probably wouldn't like if I knew him in real life (pushy, overbearing), but he is one of my favorite Trollope characters. Sometimes the hero, sometimes the villain, often wrong, and always entertaining. I found myself wishing we had him around in Phineas Redux (though he was probably really old by then) to comment on what the politicians were trying to do with the church. I imagine he was a Tory, and he must have been angry with (was it Daubeny?). And there were so many other good characters in Barchester Towers.

I enjoyed the politics in the political novels, but not always the other parts of the books. I think The Prime Minister was my favorite as far as politics go, but I can't say I liked the book as much because there was more "Emily/Ferdinand/Arthur" than prime minister in it. As for the Palliser novels, my favorite was probably Phineas Finn overall. Phineas Redux was also interesting, but the way Trollope ruined Lady Laura killed it for me.

I might read some other Trollopes, but not anytime soon. I agree with Madge on Trollope's probable modern-day views.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I enjoyed the Barchester series more than the Pallisers too. But I did like Phineas Finn, the character and the book.
I did get attached to Plantagenet towards the end, when he finally started realizing that he needed to get closer to his children.

[Lori, Moderator]

My least favorite was The Eustace Diamonds. I just couldn't bring myself to care about the characters, and it was too long for the story it told. The one character I found mildly interesting was the young woman who didn't want to get married (forgot her name), and her story was resolved in probably the second most boring way possible (the most boring way would have been to resign herself to her fate and marry the guy). For some reason I thought Trollope had a more interesting fate in store for her, but then Trollope was neither Dumas nor Hardy.

[Trev]

Unlike most other contributors, I was not convinced by Phineas because, despite his convincing oratory, his sincerity always seemed to be wavering, either within his politics or in his relationships with women. I'm surprised his second marriage lasted so long. I would have liked to have seen some sort of redemption for Lady Laura who just faded into a miserable obscurity.

I thought that Trollope's portrayal of Plantagenet was probably his greatest achievement in the Palliser novels. I would guess that he was modelled on someone Trollope knew or a least an amalgam of a few politicians/peers of the realm. I was less impressed with Lady Glencora and their spoilt children. Lady G's impulsive and often misguided actions caused so much unnecessary trouble that by the fifth book I was glad to see the back of her.

I thought that The Eustace Diamonds was the most melodramatic of the Pallisers and verged on the sensational. In fact most of the Palliser series had more melodrama than the Barchester series including shootings, a duel, accusations of infidelity and an audacious robbery.

My favourite novel by Trollope is still The Way We Live Now but of these two series I think the one I enjoyed the most would be Can You Forgive Her.

[Robin P, Moderator]

My favorite by far is also Barchester Towers for the great humor and satire. I liked Mrs. Proudie and Mr. Slope, also the beautiful seducer who managed to get herself carried from place to place (I've forgotten her name!) In general, I liked the Barchester series more than the Palliser series. It's partly that all the books started to seem the same to me after while.

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

The relief to the rest, this should be my last word on the topic:

In these books, politics, in its conventional meaning as in national politics are background noise. At most a meaningless topic about which characters can talk, when there is nothing else about which to talk.
For evidence.
1. Politics was the main thing cut from book six.

2. All politics could be likewise removed from the other books at a total page cost of less than 1 book. Maybe as little as ½ of one book.

3. Politics as an active plot driver almost never happens.
a. Elections matter in that that election is Trollope’s short hand for which male is at least minimally worthy. Fail election and either disappear or worse.
b. Finn losses his job for lack of party loyalty, and later gains advancement by selling out on the topic of Church independence. A topic for which he had no original opinion. (multi-layered cynicism?)
c. Political inability ends the young Duke’s ministry
d. And maybe at a stretch one or two more.

4. Politics does serve as a comedic target as Trollope pounds his various drums, belittling the process, the voters and the rituals.
a. Note that every opening day and many another key moment in the Commons is a staged affair. Almost nothing said about the issues and all of the descriptions about how predictable and foreordained the speeches.
b. We are given a detailed description of exactly one cabinet and its members, all for comic effect
c. Finn with zero related experience become First Lord of the Admiralty
d. The Great Duke of Omnium has exactly one contribution to political thinking: the fruitless case for decimal coinage.
e. Several more of the like.

5. Not only are large numbers of issues of the day ignored, war among them, no important topic is given more than a cursory coverage.
a. I think we learn what a rotten borough might be (one where the number of qualified voters has dwindled to near zero) but not how to tell it from a pocket borough, one where the influence of this or that single person can guarantee election to anyone. The two can be the same but they need not be.
b. England would have had troops fighting in any of several locations, matters of state importance, but we get pages on decimal currency (Again a gag item)
c. The Irish Question and Church Independence are mentioned but never in a way that defines, describes or clarifies what these topics mean.
d. The election reform in book one goes without explanation.

All of that said, these books are about Politics. Domestic Politics, Politics of the family, home and hearth.

Remove the dialogue, maneuvering and plot action directly related to the politics of the heart; love marriage, fathers and sons, women, widows, money, and the 6 books become at most 2. Nearly as much about fox hunting as the Commons. I think the remainder pages would be:
Crime, Politics and Fox Hunting, in that order.

This would be the outline of my paper on these books.


Side not:
I keep going back and forth on Phineas. Mostly I like the guy. But the thing I either got wrong or think most others overlooked:
PF had, that is “had” to marry his first wife. He put it off as long as he had any other chance, but it was marry her, or have a nameless offspring.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I could have done with a lot less talk about fox hunting, my least favourite parts of the book.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

Were there any events that made you cringe?
For me, they occurred in Framley Parsonage when the young clergyman signed his friend's notes.

[Lori, Moderator]

Phrodrick wrote: "Politics does serve as a comedic target as Trollope pounds his various drums, belittling the process, the voters and the rituals."

But that's exactly what I liked about it. The way Trollope satirized politics and showed how much of it was form.


And yes, Rosemarie, I cringed whenever anyone signed a friend's note. And whenever a woman referred to a man as her "god" or something similar.

[Robin P, Moderator]

One of my favorite scenes in all of Trollope is in Framley Parsonage, when the hero is trying to get his group to leave for an event and they just keep delaying. As someone whose spouse always thinks there is plenty of time, I could so identify with that!

[Phrodrick slowed his growing backlog]

Lori wrote: "Phrodrick wrote: "Politics does serve as a comedic target as Trollope pounds his various drums, belittling the process, the voters and the rituals."

But that's exactly what I liked about it. The w..."

To be clear, The satire is funny. Uncomfortably apt. And often a very useful way to lighten the mood. Also true in some of the comic romantic parings

[Trev]

Most of the events in the Eustace Diamonds made me cringe. The rock on the beach incident and Lizzie's frequent reminders of it set up a repetitive cringe moment throughout the book. Although not exactly an event, Lady Glencora's befriending of Lizzie was particularly cringeworthy.

Another Lady G cringe inducing moment was her befriending of Ferdinand Lopez just because he was a 'looker.' I would imagine that's why she also approved of Frank Tregear for her daughter - I really felt that marriage either wouldn't last or Frank would do an S T Coleridge and abandon her while he focused on his own pursuits. Plantagenet wouldn't have said 'I told you so,' to his daughter Mary, but the look on his face would have been enough.

[Frances, Moderator]

Trev wrote: "I really felt that (Tregear and Mary's) marriage either wouldn't last or Frank would do an S T Coleridge and abandon her while he focused on his own pursuits."

I'm not so sure-I think Tregear is a Phineas Finn type who has a bit of the "love the one you're with" approach to romance. I imagine he will now settle down quite happily with Mary and play politics, particularly as his good friend Silverbridge is going to be a sparring parter now that they're on opposite sides of the house. I see the two couples rubbing along quite nicely together with Papa Plantagenet as a benign head of the household.

[LiLi]

I also saw Tregear as a Phineas type: thankfully not a Lopez type. (Although _The Prime Minister_ was my favorite of the Palliser series.)

I haven't yet read thr Barsetshire novels.

[Rosemarie, Moderator]

I hope you get a chance to read them, Elizabeth. I will be rereading them some day, but not the Palliser novels, which are still fresh in my mind.(for now, anyway)