Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 discussion
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Within a Budding Grove
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This Extension of Swan in Love also speaks frankly of Swann's death and gives very moving commentary on life and death with specific reference to Swann. This commentary carries through by implication to events that occur long after Swann's death. This is not a spoiler because I don't think the full implication of the commentary will be revealed until a reader has finished the whole book.It is this type of material, rather than just details I missed, which occurs fairly frequently and makes rereading so fulfilling to me.
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When the group read Vol. 2 was the continuation of the "Swann in Love" story in the middle of the Norpois dinner discussed?"
n.b. this comment has been moved from S&G thread.
I seem to remember this Dave; there's a big black hole in the narrative from the end of Swann in Love where Swann declares that he's not interested in Odette and then vol. 2 where they're married. It caused quite a bit of confusion.
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I slightly preferred vol.2 to vol.1; I think in part because we started to find out more about the characters introduced in vol.1 and that they were starting to interact and influence the other characters. I remember the Norpois scene as particularly good. In fact, it was when I compared the Penguin version with the MKE of that part that made me switch. However, I've switched back to MKE for Vol.4 and others.
BTW feel free to start new 're-reading' folders if you wish. The assumption will be that it may contain spoilers - though it may be a good idea to make it explicit in the opening comment.
I think this weekend, I'm going to re-read the opening chapter of S&G before advancing on to The Prisoner. If I have time I may re-read the section you mentioned above, from Vol.2.
I probably would have been better off if I had selectively reread as you do Jonathan. As I think I've mentioned before, the first three volumes were an uphill struggle for me. It took all that time to acclimate to Proust's syntax and style. I remember liking parts of Vol. I but very little of volume II. Whatever comments I have here I expect will be the type of fill-in-the-blank on plots and characters.
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Its not through direct comments Renato, its through passing reference by Norpois to Odette using "the child" for emotional blackmail by denying Swann access (Swann seems not to have noticed) before marriage. Then as the Narrator talks about the relationship's journey toward marriage, he makes reference to the "child" once or twice and to his "daughter once I believe.
To follow up on the topic of Gilberte's birth before Odette and Swann's married, the following is sentence infers it most definitively (Scott Moncrieff translation): "In so far as a mental picture which accompanies one of our resolutions may be said to be its motive, so it might be said that if Swann married Odette it was in order to present her and Gilberte, without anyone’s else being present, without, if need be, anyone’s else ever coming to know of it, to the Duchesse de Guermantes."
Continuing my reread, I read last night the section between where Norpois leaves and Francois and the Narrator encounter the "countess" at the toilet at the Champs Elysee park. I am just overwhelmed with realization of all the (what I call) "foundational" interior dialogue that is so much more meaningful knowing its significance to the whole book. For instance:- Father tells Mama to quit pestering the Narrator to be a diplomat when he wants to go into literature because "he will never change" and "he is old enough to know what makes him happy." Talk about irony! And that launches the narrator into monologues about never changing and happiness that say so much more to me know.
Mama "despises any spying at doors and windows". Hmmm, that rule is going to be broken a lot! lol
Francois was sent by mama for "training" at some of the best restaurants in Paris. Francois subsequently has a secere opinion of most fancy restaurants that father names.
I seem to have reached a certain level of accomplishment in reading Proust in that I can now successfully multitask watching TV with my wife while reading Proust. So far my wife is being gracious when I say "pause the television and listen to this." lol
I have finally pinned both the French and English versions of the text from the University of Adelaide to my iPad home page so I can copy and paste quotes. I don't know why I didn't do that until now.
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That's impressive Dave: simultaneously watching TV and reading Proust! Last week I actually read some Proust on the bus going to and from work which was quite impressive (for me). I usually read anyway but up until now I'd left Proust to the weekend or when I was at home.
What did your wife say when you mentioned that you were re-reading ISOLT? Did she groan? :-)
Lol, my wife passed groaning about Proust MONTHS ago Jonathan. She was incredulous that I was reading it again
But what Alain de Botton says about reading Proust is true. Now I have a Captive to read to! And since I've read The afugitive and know whats coming, I've taken extra precautions to make sure she doesn't escape.
Britain has such great public transportation! I'm envious of being able to read on the way to work. All I was ever able to do was cuss other drivers.
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It's actually quite nice reading on the bus in the morning...the morning is my favourite time for reading anyway...it wakes me up. It's not so good when there are noisy passengers though; there should be a 'reading section' on all public transport, where all idle chatter, leaky headphones and endless noises from electrical gadgets are banned! Or else!!...maybe a cork-lined bus?
Amen to that. Although now that I remember times past, I remember passing a woman in rush hour traffic once who was holding a book on top of the steering wheel in rush hour traffic. And the traffic was moving quite fast.
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I hope she wasn't reading Crash! I occasionally see people reading whilst walking...I find that really impressive.
Good Lord! The key to understanding "The Fugitive" is in Volume 2! Don't go look for this yet though as it is a major spoiler! When the Narrator recieves Gilberte's first letter inviting him to tea, after his initial reaction, there is a full page, third person digression which describes generically, but accurately, what happens in the first half of Vol 6. (in one sentence). Then he describes in one sentence his own reaction (which mystified me). Then he explains in a couple of sentences how events played out and explains his perspective on why. Then he philosophizes for a few sentences on love and life! Proust, you clever, clever man! Hiding exploding Easter eggs of explanation elsewhere in the text!
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I know you've read a lot of supplementary material since finishing ISOLT; did they comment on these 'Easter eggs'?
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Jonathan, I don't remember reading specifically about explanations early in the book for later actions, motives and events. The term "exploding Easter egg" is my own. We have a Fiesta in San Antonio in April where folks throw "Cascarones" - eggs filled with confetti - sort of like in Carnival or Mardi Gras I imagine. That was what came to my mind.I'm sure there is commentary out there on this point, I just have not come across it yet. I've mentioned several times how I find the text the second time through so "clarifying" of the whole book. Maybe Marcelita will pop by with guidance on this.
It occurs to me that the placement of this material is logical in the book's structure and content. Structurally, coming at the beginning of the Narrator's first love interest, it explains the end of the last love interest and provides comment and perspective on love. There is quite a bit of material in this section that is reflective on love. It is interesting that this passage is "motivated" by reading Gilberte's letter. There are several letters in The Fugitive, but the last one perhaps the most intriguing - as well as paralleling Gilberte's letter.
As for rereading, it is experiences like this that reinforce my belief in the importance of rereading, and sooner rather than later. If I rereading in a few years, I doubt I would remember the details that are allowing me to pick up all theses allusions to other parts of the book.
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I wonder if you'll keep finding these connections also in the next volumes. I guess you will!
It was a great idea to start these threads for rereading. I'm enjoying reading your comments now and I guess they'll have more meaning when I read them during my re-readings!
Speaking of structure, I had meant to mention that the recognized "middle" of the book is the five hundred pages framed by Grandmother's death and grieving for Grandmother at Balbec.
There are some great descriptive phrases and lines about Francoise. With reference to her killing chickens and rabbits for cooking he describes her as "our bloodthirsty pacifist". After her interaction and sympathizing with him while ill he notes "I decided provisionally that she was a social and professional pessimist."
And then there is this fascinating passage where Norpois, in the guise of his criticizing Bergotte, Proust pokes fun at his own book and then at himself. There was a footnote in the Penguin edition that put me onto this. Norpois is speaking to the Narrator concerning the "Martinville Steeples" writing he did in Swann's Way and gave to Norpois to read. The part of "never knowing an author except through his book" is a reference To Proust's argument for change in literary criticism he made in Contra Saint Beuve". "After all, others as well as yourself have such sins upon their conscience, and you are not the only one who has believed himself to be a poet in his day. But one can see in what you have shewn me the evil influence of Bergotte. You will not, of course, be surprised when I say that there was in it none of his good qualities, since he is a past-master in the art — incidentally quite superficial — of handling a certain style of which, at your age, you cannot have acquired even the rudiments. But already there is the same fault, that paradox of stringing together fine-sounding words and only afterwards troubling about what they mean. That is putting the cart before the horse, even in Bergotte’s books. All those Chinese puzzles of form, all these deliquescent mandarin subtleties seem to me to be quite futile. Given a few fireworks, let off prettily enough by an author, and up goes the shout of genius. Works of genius are not so common as all that! Bergotte cannot place to his credit — does not carry in his baggage, if I may use the expression — a single novel that is at all lofty in its conception, any of those books which one keeps in a special corner of one’s library. I do not discover one such in the whole of his work. But that does not exclude the fact that, with him, the work is infinitely superior to the author. Ah! there is a man who justifies the wit who insisted that one ought never to know an author except through his books. It would be impossible to imagine an individual who corresponded less to his — more pretentious, more pompous, less fitted for human society. Vulgar at some moments, at others talking like a book, and not even like one of his own, but like a boring book, which his, to do them justice, are not — such is your Bergotte. He has the most confused mind, alembicated, what our ancestors called a diseur de phébus, and he makes the things that he says even more unpleasant by the manner in which he says them. I forget for the moment whether it is Loménie or Sainte-Beuve who tells us that Vigny repelled people by the same eccentricity."
When the group read Vol. 2 was the continuation of the "Swann in Love" story in the middle of the Norpois dinner discussed?
Norpois mentions he was at the Swann's the night before, then starts talking about Swann and Odette's standing in society which leads him to speculate on whether Swann made a mistake in marriage. In the middle of a paragraph the narrator launches into a five page, third-person digression of events leading to Swann's decision to marry that is really a continuation "Swann in Love".
The biggest revelation - mentioned once by Norpois and twice or three times by the Narrator (always indirectly) was that Gilberte was born before they were married! But Gilberte was not the stated reason they eventually married.
I missed this completely the first read.