Richard III discussion

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Group Reads > In remembrance of Richard

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message 1: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (sharonk) | 43 comments I'm a new member to Goodreads, so I hope it is not inappropriate to discuss something not book-related. But today is the anniversary of the death of Richard III at Bosworth Field, and I didn't want that to go unnoticed. Richard's history was rewritten by the victor, but he deserves to be remembered for who he was, not for who his enemies made him out to be.
Sharon


message 2: by Susan C (new)

Susan C (somersetpurplegmailcom) | 40 comments Thank you Sharon!


message 3: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Thank you Sharon for reminding us.


message 4: by Jamie (new)

Jamie Collins (jamie_goodreads) | 5 comments RIP Richard.


message 5: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments :0(
Thanks Sharon.
Ikon would have really appreciate this post.
:0(


message 6: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Barb wrote: ":0(
Thanks Sharon.
Ikon would have really appreciate this post.
:0("


I was sooooo thinking of her yesterday when I was towards the end of The Lodestar and it was the eve of the last battle. She always had to put whatever book she was reading aside at that point and prepare herself.


message 7: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments :0(
I know she said she always did that...



message 8: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I miss her. She would have been sooooo tickled to see Sharon as a member of the goup.


message 9: by Pat (new)

Pat | 39 comments Thank you Sharon, especially for writing your wonderful book that brought Richard to life for all of us.
I miss Ikon very much too. I credit her for my interest in Richard3. She always brought such lively and interesting topics to our group.


message 10: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I posted on my blog about the anniversary of Richard's death. I also made sure to include some information about him (and about how the image of him created by Shakespeare is not very accurate!). I'll leave the addy for my blog in case anyone wants to check out what I wrote.

almostcrazymommy.blogspot.com


message 11: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (sharonk) | 43 comments Hi, Robin.
What an awesome website! I loved the Lorena Mckinna Highwayman song, and the visuals were great, too. And I didn't know that on today's date in 1305, William Wallace was drawn and quartered. "My" Davydd ap Gruffydd in The Reckoning had the dubious distinction of being one of the first to suffer this gruesome death. It had been done before him, but with Davydd, it became SOP for men accused of treason. Though how a Welsh prince and a Scottish lord could be guilty of treason to an English king is another question altogther.
I thought your thoughtful essay about Richard III was very well done, too, and you raised some excellent points. Would it be okay with you if I added your blog to my List of Favorite Blogs I've recently put up on my website?



message 12: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments Sharon wrote: "Hi, Robin.
What an awesome website! I loved the Lorena Mckinna Highwayman song, and the visuals were great, too. And I didn't know that on today's date in 1305, William Wallace was drawn and qu..."


Oh my goodness yes!



message 13: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (sharonk) | 43 comments Hi, Robin.
I just posted your blog URL on my Facebook page. I've only been on Facebook a few weeks; my publisher pushed me off the diving board into the water, to be honest. But I can see why it can become addictive, for it gives people a forum to discuss matters close to their hearts. For example, I got to mention Richard yesterday and to rant about my Philadelphia Eagles signing Michael Vick! And thanks to you, I just asked everyone to spare a moment today to remember William Wallace. I'll ask my web wizard to add your blog then, to my Favorites List and will let you know when it goes up. Sharon


message 14: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I am so honored!! :) This has made my day.

And being from Atlanta, I'm just glad Vick isn't still here (even though I'm not a Falcons' fan!).


message 15: by Bibliophile (new)

Bibliophile | 28 comments Although I too would of course want to mark Richard's Jahrzeit, I feel compelled to point out that it would have happened on a different date, because the Gregorian calendar (our current one) was not adopted in England until the mid-18th century. Before that, they used the Julian Calendar so the "real" anniversary of Richard's death is actually sometime in September for us (this is the discrepancy that causes the Russian Revolution in 1917 to be called the October Revolution - under the Julian Calendar - although for us Gregorian calendar-users it actually took place in early November 1917.)


message 16: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments Hi Annette, I'm so glad to see you here. Welcome!

Regarding the calendar dates, I too looked into this and did discover that there's a nine day discrepancy for 15th-century dates. This is because the Julian calendar didn't account for leap year overcompensating, which the Gregorian does by not having a leap year on the centuries that are not divisible by 400 (instead of 4). As a result, the seasons shifted and farmers had to adjust their planting and harvesting to meet actual conditions.

It's important to keep this shift in mind when reading about events of those times. For example, the myth about Richard asking for a "mess of strawberries" in that fateful June 13th council meeting is more likely to have been possible if the Gregorian date were really June 22nd in order for the strawberries to have been ripe.

However, my understanding for historical and practical purposes is that we use the contemporary dates. So Richard's birthday is still October 2nd and the anniversary of his death is still August 22nd. Another complication is that England adopted the modern dating system more than 100 years after the rest of Europe did (having to do with the Catholic churches involvement in the change and England now having split from them).


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) The changeover in British America took place at the same time as in England - 1752.

Most of Catholic Europe adopted the Gregorian reforms in the 1580s.

The first shots were fired in the American Revolution in 1775, independence was declared in 1776, and the peace treaty ending the war with Britain was signed in 1783. But the revolution was brewing for most of the 1760s and the first half of the 1770s.


message 18: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments Annette wrote: "I have also read accounts of people going to a certain historic place on a certain anniversary and feeling something extrasensory, whereas if the event in question happened before 1752, in most parts of the world it wasn't an anniversary at all ...

This aspect has always intrigued me. For example, Anne Boleyn's ghost is supposed to appear around Blickling on the anniversary of her execution. But if you go by present dating, her anniversary isn't her anniversary, if you see what I mean. Maybe a memo was sent around ghosts advising them of changed working hours...




message 19: by Joan (last edited Sep 22, 2009 08:26AM) (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments *LOL* Brian. I'm very skeptical about reports of ghosts, etc., Ghost Hunters notwithstanding. IIRC, so called "ghost" sightings have been shown to be phenomena having to do with the physical and electro-magnetic properties of the particular surroundings. The tests for these properties are repeatable.

Actually, another physical reality that is usually ignored is that the earth, and indeed the solar system and galaxy are not in the same point in space of even seconds ago, so the earth would have moved trillions of miles through space over the centuries.

That won't, however, stop me from writing a "ghost" story should one come to me. :-o


message 20: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (sharonk) | 43 comments Brian, that is so funny! I love the image of ghosts wandering around with blackberries tucked under their arms, making sure they get their haunting dates right. BTW, how is your fictional Richard doing these days? (Brian is working on a novel about Richard III, which is very good news for those of us who loved his Within the Fetterlock and The Adventures of Alianore Audley.)


message 21: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments Thanks Sharon - it's made more progress in the last month than in the previous year, although since my recent brief visit to Wales I've been too busy day dreaming about a house in Llandudno to do much writing. I will be back to the keyboard soon though as I seem to have found my Muse again - or she has found me, whatever.

The ghost thing does puzzle me, in all seriousness. The Anne Boleyn haunting at Blicking is often referred to, she is supposed to go around the lanes in a coach, although I must say I have never actually met anyone who has seen her. One of my unfulfilled ambitions is to do a stake-out at the relevant time, though this would probably be prefaced by several hours at the Buckinghamshire Arms, Blicking, one of my all time favourite pubs. Her father is also a ghost in the area, apparently.

Another (more relevant) haunting of interest is the ghostly music/chantings that apparently happen at Fotheringhay Church - however, I don't think that's date related, so the musicians probably didn't need a memo!


message 22: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments I love the talk of historical ghosts. ;)


message 23: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (sharonk) | 43 comments Me, too, Robin. I can think of so many historical ghosts I'd love to be haunted by!


message 24: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Robin wrote: "I love the talk of historical ghosts. ;)"

I'd love to see a ghost or two as long as someone is hanging around with me :)

Anytime I've stayed at a B&B that's supposed to be haunted I do ask to have a room far far away from the ghost. I've seen one too many episodes of Haunted Travels on the travel channel.


message 25: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments My mother swears that her dead cat's ghost haunts her apartment and that the dog sees her by the food bowl occasionally. That's about as close as we can get in our unhistorical part of North Carolina!


message 26: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments That is why I would love to stay in historical buildings that have been turned into hotels or B&Bs when I can finally travel to England again. :)


message 27: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments The hard part about ghosts is dividing the fact from the absolute fiction. Some pub landlords, for example, have invented ghosts to boost trade, and I suspect the same is true of some 'stately home' owners.

I don't speak as an utter sceptic by the way. I come from a family that was as much Spiritualist as Church of England, and I know a real life version of Melinda from Ghost Whisperer. I believe something is 'out there'. But I also believe that many alleged hauntings, including the historical ones, are bogus or simply the product of over-active imaginations.

One ghostly experience Chrissie and I experienced was at Gainsborough Old Hall. We felt a distinct chill in the room where their 'White Lady' appears, before we knew about the said 'White Lady'. Of course it could just have been bad insulation, but that was interesting.


message 28: by Laura (new)

Laura Willson | 1 comments I just finished "Alianore Audley" and still have a cheesy grin plastered to my face. My favorite dig... Edward stops eating his orange and throws it out a window where it hits a passing Woodville. Knowing I'm one of a relatively small group who would actually get that makes it that much better. Glad the muse is back, Brian! Also, it makes perfect sense to me that ghosts seeking attention (or why else would they haunt?) would have adjusted THEIR calendars for maximum exposure.


message 29: by Kellie (new)

Kellie (kellie35) | 3 comments Hehe when I was in England a last year I went to Hampton Court (A few times :P) and got separated from the tour group and was in the only part of the palace (Apparently) that is haunted by Catherine Howard and.... someone else, oh gosh how bad is that? I forgot the other ghost! Whoops :) Anyway, as much as I don't want to believe in ghosts that is all that I was thinking about as I tried to find my way back :) Stupid over-active imagination, the slightest thing became a ghost following me :S I'm weird, (so I am told anyway) but you'll get used to me :)


Susanna - Censored by GoodReads (susannag) Possibly Anne Boleyn - I think she's supposed to haunt Hampton Court.


message 31: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments The Duke of Buckingham is supposed to haunt Debenhams department store in Salisbury, built on the site where he is said to have been executed.


message 32: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments Susan wrote: "The Duke of Buckingham is supposed to haunt Debenhams department store in Salisbury, built on the site where he is said to have been executed."

IIRC, you wrote a spoof about that haunting. I'd love to read it again.


message 33: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Joan wrote: "Susan wrote: "The Duke of Buckingham is supposed to haunt Debenhams department store in Salisbury, built on the site where he is said to have been executed."

IIRC, you wrote a spoof about that hau..."


Here's Harry!

http://susandhigginbotham.blogspot.co...



message 34: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments Laura wrote: "I just finished "Alianore Audley" and still have a cheesy grin plastered to my face. My favorite dig... Edward stops eating his orange and throws it out a window where it hits a passing Woodville. ..."

Thanks for those kind words Laura. It's the encouragement (even more than the money!) that makes writing worthwhile.




message 35: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments To try to bring this a little nearer topic, I recall that someone wrote a book based on making contact with Richard via a medium. I think his name was Dedham, or Dening, or something like that. It wasn't fiction, or a wind-up, it was meant seriously.

In this account, 'Richard' owned to offing the lads, but he rather cravenly blamed the priests who *really* ran things, a la mode Sir Humphrey Appleby.

My knowledge of spiritualism made me doubtful of this, because the whole theory is that the spirits come to prove that life goes on. My mother, for example, could tell me things that only she and I know. 'Richard' could be anyone, as we have no way of testing what he 'said'.

But some of you may find the book interesting, if you can find it, if only for the novelty value.


message 36: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments Found it:
SECRET HISTORY: THE TRUTH ABOUT RICHARD III AND THE PRINCES by Dening, J. & Collins, R. E
ISBN 13: 9780952810704
ISBN 10: 0952810700

Have fun, if that sort of thing floats your boat!



message 37: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments Annette wrote: "Interestingly, John Dening was a Reverend: unusual, I believe, for a pillar of the Christian church to hold such firm beliefs in spiritualism. I use the past tense because he died a little while ag..."

Well, Annette, the Church of England is an extremely broad church. We even had a senior bishop who doubted the resurrection, which is about as 'heretical' as you can get.

I must admit, I am tempted by the Edward was poisoned idea, as it explains a great deal.




message 38: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
IIRC, you wrote a spoof..."

LMAO, that was one of your better ones. Loved Piers at the end :o

I am going to have to reread Alianore soon, and see how many jokes I missed the first time around.


message 39: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments When I first heard about the poison theory, I dismissed it because I couldn't figure out who Edward IV trusted potentially had more to gain than lose by his assassination. Now that I've read the case for poisoning that you've put forth, Annette, I think it's entirely possible that he was poisoned.

*But* could it have been unintentional? As Brian pointed out (either here or on another board), the doctors then used arsenic to "cure" those illnesses that they didn't know how to treat. Suppose EIV had contracted an STD or some other sudden and severe illness and the doctors over-zealously treated him with arsenic? Then the scenario could have unfolded as you described, Annette, without it having been a plot to assassinate the king. The doctors could have even known what EIV had, but because they were the ones who killed him, they covered up their mess by calling it an unknown illness.


message 40: by Joan (new)

Joan Szechtman | 401 comments While I'm by no means a medical expert--not even close--I do understand that the effect that certain chemicals have on the body is related to the person's physiology, mass playing an important part. According to everything I've read, by the time of his death, EIV was very large, even for someone of his height. So, maybe the doctors had to extrapolate dosage from what they'd give an average man to one of EIV's size and they got it wrong...twice.


message 41: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I'm not a doctor (nor do I play one on TV), but I used to read a lot of true crime and of course death by arsenic comes up pretty regularly. I seem to recall that the affect of arsenic poisoning are pretty excrutiating, not an easy death.


message 42: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments Today is October 2 (Happy Birthday Richard). I prefer to remember birthdays rather than mark the anniversary of deaths.

;-)



message 43: by Robin (new)

Robin | 142 comments Beat me to it Jenn!! Lol.

And I do realize that when he was born they used the Julian calendar so technically his birthday isn't for a few more days...but since we don't use that calendar anymore...:)


message 44: by Brian (new)

Brian (brianwainwright) | 149 comments I'm particularly grateful to Richard for all the friends he has led me to; people I would almost certainly have never known but for him. Some, like the legendary Geoffrey Richardson, are no longer with us. Some (in fact many) I have never met face-to-face. I value them (including you) so much, and yet but for Richard we would probably never have met.


message 45: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments Brian,
That's a lovely sentiment.
Thanks for sharing it.

And it reminds me of Ikon who is sadly missed
And always marked Richard's birthday, once with a surgery to implant a pace-maker.



message 46: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Barb wrote: "Brian,
That's a lovely sentiment.
Thanks for sharing it.

And it reminds me of Ikon who is sadly missed
And always marked Richard's birthday, once with a surgery to implant a pace-maker.
"


I agree, thank you Brian. It's funny how many people found this little group here. Originally it was just a way for Barb, Pat, Ikon and myself to chat away about Richard to our heart's content and I still miss her nattering very much.




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