"Mistborn" Children of a Bleeding Sun - *spoilers* for Part Three

[Michael]

It should be easier to talk about this long book in sections. Post your comments about Part Three here, but please no spoilers for anything after Part Three!

[Michael]

Wow, what a mess! I did not see the destruction of the army coming. And I admit my first thought was, they're really going to need another 200 pages now!

I seem to have highlighted a lot of quotes for discussion topics in Part Three:

1) "It is a journal, Master Dockson," Sazed said. "A record that appears to have been penned by the Lord Ruler himself - or, rather, the man who became the Lord Ruler."

2) "I decided that I'd see her dream fulfilled. I'd make a world where flowers returned, a world with green plants, a world where no soot fell from the sky..."

3) "They killed him, she thought. Right here, just a few paces away from where noblemen wait for their carriages. As if... the death were nothing out of the ordinary. Just another skaa, slaughtered. Like an animal. Or less than an animal. Nobody would slaughter pigs in a keep courtyard."

4) "Don't forget the ash because you see a little silk. if those people in there knew you were skaa, they'd have you slaughtered just as easily as they did that poor boy."

5) "They can't all be like that, she thought. They're so beautiful, so distinguished."

6) "I have met many other Terris philosophers since that day. They are, every one, men of great wisdom and ponderous sagaciousness."

7) "He thought he saw a figure crouching atop a wall in the distance, but he couldn't be certain... The man in the distance burned tin..."

8) "The Hero of Ages shall be not a man, but a force. No nation may claim him, no woman shall keep him, and no king may slay him."

9) "Beside the beard, he had a fake, but realistic, nose, along with platforms in the shoes and makeup to lighten his skin."

10) "Once her problems had been things like starvation and beatings - now they were things like extended carriage rides and companions who arrived late for appointments. What did a transormation like that do to a person?"

11) "They're still noblemen. Perhaps they can't help what they are, but that doesn't change their nature." - Kelsier making the same argument nobles make of the skaa. Seems short-sighted.

[Michael]

Some thoughts on the quotes:

1) Looks like we've answered Edwin's question from Part Two! I love the contrast between this inept, insecure smithy and the bloodthirsty, tyrannical Godhead he becomes.

2) Um, not to rain (ash) on anyone's parade, but where in the first 380 pages has anyone talked about any sort of plan to restore the environment?? We don't even know if it's possible to restore anything, do we??

3 - 5) I love these commentaries on the superficial beauty vs. the underlying oppression and malice. That keep courtyard scene is so vivid, it is something we should keep in our heads in every scene with nobility present. Their society depends on the callous disregard of the raping and killing of humans.

6 - 8) Notice the prevalence of "men" in these quotes. I included these as examples of how male/hetero-centric this culture is. At times, like in quote 7, the message seems a bit muddied: earlier Kelsier says gender bias is not practical among Mistings, but he still assumes a Misting he can't even see is a man.

9) Skin color is so rarely talked about in this story, I thought it was interesting that he takes the time to mention skin-lightening as a way to look more like a nobleman. Because of the ash? Because skaa spend more time in the sun? Or is he just trying to change his skin color in general so he looks like someone else? I'm not clear why he mentions this here.

10) I'm wondering (hoping) she comes to some epiphany about how two-faced the nobility culture is. Coupled with the Lord Ruler's logs, this could be a powerful statement on how power/luxury corrupts...

11) Kelsier's comment here seems short-sighted to me. He is using the exact same argument the nobility make - the skaa can't help themselves, it is their nature! Does he see the trap in this thinking?

[Edwin]

Michael wrote: "Wow, what a mess!"

Yes, Part Three has thrown some real curve balls.

I continue to enjoy the way in which Sanderson metes out the story, giving us little tidbits of background and slowly evolving our main characters, Vin and Kelsier. My opinion and views of these characters continues to evolve with each part. I like this idea of breaking down the comments into parts, but find it difficult as the book progresses to see our discussions in the earlier threads in same light, and I find myself having to refrain from going back and adding to the previous commentaries.

I just finished part 3 and am about to start 4, so a couple of general observations about your comments:

1), 2), 8) Clearly there is the deeper back story of the Lord Ruler being slowly told here, and tied in with this are the ancient events that blighted this world, which Sanderson hints at in the commentary being doled out from the Lord Ruler’s book and in the snippets at the beginning of each chapter. I think that part of Kelsier’s vision, and Sazed’s as well, is to understand what happened in this distant past, and in this understanding hopefully find a way to restore this world of lost flowers and green.

6) Who are the Terris and what was and is there role in all of this? Why are they being hunted and controlled by the Lord Ruler? This too is slowly being told as the book progresses. And how did the rift between the Skaa and the Nobles come about? Why also do they need to be so held down and controlled?

10) I am becoming more rather than less troubled with Vin’s character. She grows stronger and more confident, and clearly is evolving from the mistrustfull and reclusive girl that she was. But she is not necessarily moving in a direction that I like. Her adolescent infatuation with Elend and her gradual embracement of the pleasures of the balls and the life of the nobility seem discordant and out of character. It does though seem that Sanderson continues to play on her internal conflicts about this, so probably there is more maturing still to come.

11) I find it interesting how Sanderson is clearly playing with the prejudices and preconceptions on both sides here: the notion of the “stupidity” and lack of intelligence of the Skaas held by the Nobles, and then the perception held by the Skaa, most seen with Kelsier, that the Nobles are all evil and controlling. Both sides seem “unable to help themselves” as you put it. Sanderson seems to be slowly having these preconceptions picked apart as the book progresses, making our characters see that perhaps the world is not so black and white, so to speak.

[Edwin]

I will be away and have limited internet access as you folks finish up the discussions here, so I will hop back in and look forward to reading everyone's final comments when I return.

Have fun and enjoy.

[Michael]

Thanks for your comments, Edwin! Yes, I too find my opinions revised and modified as things go. Having the different threads makes it harder to keep the discussion coherent, but I like that we can watch the evolution of opinions as the book unfolds. Wouldn't it be nice if we could reply to comments in previous threads and they automatically post here? Ok, maybe confusing...

You are raising many of the same questions I am. As for Vin, here are my updated comments after reading Part Three:

Vin's character development viz a viz Elend and the balls: One of my original thoughts when Vin started working with Kelsier and his crew was what a great spy/assassin Vin would make. Her character background has created some very applicable traits: making herself invisible, hiding her emotions, keeping herself disconnected from others, making use of very limited resources to survive. She flirted with this idea at the first ball, when she realized her noblewoman disguise was familiar, because it was like hiding in plain sight. I thought, wow, I can't wait to see how she sinks her teeth into this role. But then her time with Elend and high society seems to have changed her priorities, or her instincts. I do think her internal conflict is interesting, but I can't help feeling that a strong character arc was discarded here. As anxiety-provoking as it is to portray her soft spot for Elend as her weakness, I think it would be more authentic to portray her inability to trust others as her weakness. How would that play out? Wouldn't it be more interesting if Vin were to try to play Elend from the beginning, and perhaps the crisis of conscience would then be realizing that he is actually an ally she came close to destroying, or maybe even destroyed? Just some thoughts rolling around in my head, trying to put my finger on my uneasiness about her depiction...

[Valerie]

Again, it is difficult to comment without giving anything away, so I will try to limit my comments to concepts.

2) I think this was a statement of hope. The world history seems to take a turn toward darkness with the Lord Ruler, who is portrayed as a god king. It stands to reason that if once the world was green and beautiful, the environmental darkness coincided with the socio-political darkness that began with his reign. At least that is how I perceived this. I really liked the concept of the world being out of balance, and the hope that the balance could be restored.

3-5) 10) 11) I think that Sanderson is using Vin as a fulcrum between the two sides, skaa vs. the nobility. It is the youth and lack of worldly experience of this character that makes it work. As Edwin says, both sides have extreme prejudice toward one another. Clearly, the nobility are the oppressors, but does that mean that all of them are evil? Should they all die because of their lack of courage to act against society? Or are they, too, somewhat victim of circumstance, albeit less so than the skaa? Again, I liked Sanderson’s exploration of this concept within the books. Good vs. evil is rarely as clear cut as fiction makes it out to be, so I like when authors confront the issue head-on as with this book.

6-8) Good observation here about the natural inclination toward the male gender. Honestly, this type of thing is just white noise to me, so I only pick up on it when I perceive it to be an offense rather than just a mirror of society. It’s just hard for me to be bothered by this when I regularly receive calls at work asking for the IT Manager, Mr. Huffman. About that….sometimes I just tell them there is no Mr. Huffman or I am sorry, Mr. Huffman is not here. ;)

I still give mad props to Sanderson's depiction of a hero who just happens to be female. He also does not go overboard making a big deal out of the fact. “Hey look, the hero is FEMALE. A STRONG female!” There is too much of that going on these days, especially in fantasy.

And why does it have to be "strong female." Do we look for books with "strong male" leads? Ugh. So often, authors make such a big deal out of their “strong female” lead, that they often miss the mark by a mile. Um, just because she has a sword and talks trash does not make her strong. Again, this is a mirror of society. In real life I get invited to Women's Leadership conferences and groups all the time. I politely respond that I am not a Woman Leader, I am a Leader. Sheesh.

Oops, kind of got off on a rant there. Sorry, gentlemen. Now, where was I . . .


I have chosen not to comment on the Terris people because I just don't want to risk spoilers.


Finally, I have ask, in addition to all of the wonderful discussion, how are you guys enjoying the book so far?

[Michael]

Great ruminations, Valerie.

It's true we get a peek into the nobility that we wouldn't get otherwise without Vin.

And despite the constant global male usage/assumptions, it's true that not one person so far has said anything like "but she's a girl!" They focus on her skills, her background, and her experience (or lack thereof). That, at least, is refreshing.

And yes, the real world is just as bad, it would just be nice if authors who invent races and magicks and worlds would occasionally imagine societies that were egalitarian...

Good thought asking us if we are enjoying it!! I'm definitely enjoying it, despite the occasional complaint. This middle section felt a bit slow, but even in the slow sections I am often surprised by how many pages I've turned. His writing is very smooth and there are always little bits of information being eked out to keep me going...

[Hillary]

I did feel I missed out a bit by having such an important battle take place mostly "off screen," but I was interested in how it shook up everyone's plans. I've been intrigued by the hints that Kelsier may be going darkside.

Quote 10 is one that really stood out to me -- I liked that Sanderson brought this critical edge into the story, and yet in many ways it seemed a very middle-class-American. I was willing to roll w/the portrayal of Vin, but it did seem that she left behind any class warrior leanings awfully easily on the way to everyman stand-in for "First World" problems/guilt.

9)I wondered about skin color at times, particularly in thinking about the Terrismen. I kept picturing them as Sherpas, despite the fact that the oft-repeated physical description is that they're tall.

[Michael]

Hillary wrote: "I was willing to roll w/the portrayal of Vin, but it did seem that she left behind any class warrior leanings awfully easily on the way to everyman stand-in for "First World" problems/guilt."

That was part of it for me, too - she slipped into an entire new identity and attendant dilemmas unusually quickly I thought.