Religions are at the service of patriarchy... So, what choice is there for women around the world who want to practice a religion and at the same time turn away from patriarchy?

[I]

I recognize that all religions have a sexist component. The Catholic Church, for example, created the inquisition. Where thousands of innocent women died. The evangelical religion sometimes preaches the submission of women. And the religious organization called Jehovah's Witnesses preaches the submission of women. And being honest, also the Catholic Church preaches the submission of women. Even pagan religions are sexist. In Ancient Greece and in Rome where there was paganism, the woman could not be a citizen and was a kind of slave to the husband. In India, where Hinduism is practiced, the woman is, sometimes, treated as a slave. In China, they are pagans and they are extremely patriarchal. So, what choice is there for women around the world who want to practice a religion and at the same time turn away from patriarchy? I repeat to you, I believe in God, in Jehovah and in his son Jesus Christ. But I'm not going to any church. And I interpret the Bible myself in direct communication with God. That is my option, the option I have found for believe in God and not submit to men. What is your option?

[Sara]

Not all religions are formed through patriarchy. I'm a practicing Baha'i. One of the key tenets of the Baha'i faith is that men and women are equal. We also believe in progressive revelation, so we do believe in Jesus Christ and in Mohammad, in Moses and Krishna, and the Buddha.

While the faith was brought to mankind through a male prophet, He left his followers the framework for a unified system where men and women consult together in interpretation of the holy texts. Also, there is no designated Church. We have prayer books and worship can be done anywhere (home, work, outside, etc). There are no congregation leaders and everyone is encouraged to seek out the truth for themselves and communion with God is purely on a one-on-one basis, not through a middle, human, man.

[I]

I respect your beliefs, Sara. I send you love and hugs. It's your choice, Sara. And I love that you answered me. You are a valuable and honest woman.

[Maalavika]

I& wrote: "I recognize that all religions have a sexist component. The Catholic Church, for example, created the inquisition. Where thousands of innocent women died. The evangelical religion and the religious..."

I practice Hinduism but I disagree with your view I.No religions call for maltreatment.It is a purely human concept,The moment you stop agreeing to sexism,there begins its downfall.And the fact that Paganism,Hinduism,Islam and all the other religions that had female dieties is an example of the woman being woshipped.I have not much knowldge of other religions though I wish to know more,but in Hinduism the most sacred and oldest scripture called Rigveda decrees that the place where women are worshipped would prosper.The Hindu concept of Shiva and Shakthi recognises the equal importance of women as the Shiva represents man and Shakthi or Power represents women.Never have I ever heard of women being seen as slaves in Hinduism and I am a feminist.But all cultures have the sexist views and the interpretations by these men have resulted in sexism being attributed to religions,So,I believe it is all in the minds of people and when thoughts change,cultures change.

[I]

Thanks for your answer, Avalonia. :)

[Karissa]

In regards to Christianity, I would say it’s not the religion that is patriarchal, but the church. Ancient Near East culture (from the Old Testament) and 1st century culture (New Testament) were both patriarchal, yes. And so the Bible which records history and letters from those times reflect the society of the period, but it does not condone it. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” ‭‭(Galatians‬ ‭3:28‬). Throughout Jesus’s ministry he consistently treated women with a respect for which his culture scorned him (The Woman at the well, Mary Magdalene). He also had women disciples as well as men (outside of the 12 apostles) which was counter-cultural for his day because women were not allowed to follow rabbis. When Jesus rose from the dead, he could have appeared to anyone, but he chose to reveal himself to two women. He sent them back to be a witness to the 12 disciples, even though at that time women were not allowed to be witnesses in court. I could go on, but you get the idea. “Patriarchy is not God’s dream for humanity” to borrow a phrase from Jesus Feminist by Sarah Bessey. As for submission, that is a verse largely taken out of context: the previous verse talks about how, as believers, we should submit to one another. Lots of people disagree on this point and to what extent should women be in leadership. I do believe that God created women and men differently with different skills and strengths, but that doesn’t mean women can’t lead or that men can’t be nurturing. I guess I’m saying this: don’t completely discount Christianity because of imperfect human interpretations. Not all denominations will agree on these points, but I think we are getting better. :)

[Karissa]

I should amend my last comment: I can only speak for Protestant Christianity, not necessarily Catholicism. :)

[I]

Hello Karissa. Excellent comment!

[Pippa]

I wrote: "I recognize that all religions have a sexist component. The Catholic Church, for example, created the inquisition. Where thousands of innocent women died. The evangelical religion sometimes preache..."

I also respectfully disagree that all religions have a sexist component. It's important to remember how much politics has influenced organised religion and still does. The Inquistion (from 'inquisitio', a Latin legal term) came from the governmental system of the Catholic Church, making it political by default. Mary Magdalene is frequently assumed to be a prostitute thanks to a smear campaign because the fact she was one of the only other women named aside from Jesus's own mother scared the everliving daylights out of the church. The social status of women in Ancient Greece and Rome was political and cultural, not religious. Likewise, the cultures and politics of India and China are very different. And the majority of the national religions recognised in the countries mentioned have multiple significant key figures who are female. Patriarchy is imposed upon religion by people. It's a web that desperately needs to be untangled.

[Khaola]

Pippa wrote: "I wrote: "I recognize that all religions have a sexist component. The Catholic Church, for example, created the inquisition. Where thousands of innocent women died. The evangelical religion sometim..."
I agree !

[Benarji]

What's wrong with patriarchy? Is it the cool thing to do as a feminist, to hate patriarchy? The male species is a member of the human race. You can't take them out of the equation, just because you don't know how to deal with the lot of them. Does that mean you can only work in a women only environment with a woman boss? It's absurd.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Benarji wrote: "What's wrong with patriarchy? Is it the cool thing to do as a feminist, to hate patriarchy? The male species is a member of the human race. You can't take them out of the equation, just because you..."

Patriarchy does not just refer to men in power, which is not in and of itself a problem. Patriarchy refers to the systemic power imbalance between genders that favors men over other genders, excluding them from power and creating unequal circumstances in everyday life. That's why it's a problem.

[Maalavika]

Benarji wrote: "What's wrong with patriarchy? Is it the cool thing to do as a feminist, to hate patriarchy? The male species is a member of the human race. You can't take them out of the equation, just because you..."
Every thing's wrong with patriarchy.If men are a part of human race,so too are women and they too deserve an equal share.It is when this share is denied to them that patriarchy becomes a problem

[Benarji]

@Katelyn @Avalonia Night

It doesn't favour men. Let's talk probability. What are the odds of finding a single black marble in a pool of white marbles? Even if you take a hundred tries, it isn't guaranteed that you would manage to pull out that single black marble. Women are fairly new in the (whatever) field so obviously the odds are gonna be against them. Men have been exposed to the social environment for much longer so some things comes more naturally for us. It's in a way, our unfair advantage.

It isn't as if men are against the idea of having a women-led corporation. It's just that the qualification aspect goes beyond being a man and woman. The function of those in power is to provide equal opportunity but it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be handed power based on your gender.

I think I've seen a few blind recruitment experiment on the internet which shows interviewers tends to lean towards men, even in a modulated environment (where women are made to sound like men). The truth hurts but there's so few qualified women. In a pool of a thousand, probably there would be ten women in contrast to a hundreds of men.

I'm not here to say that men are superior but there's obviously factors which leans towards men and like any other learnt skills, it's also possible for women to acquire the skill but you gotta learn, not ask to be spoon-fed positions just because you want an equal power balance. As long as you are able to receive education and the chance to pursue your dreams, I'd say that's pretty equal enough.

Now if we're talking faith, are you praying to God or are you praying to the male/female representation of your faith? Because we didn't had this problem 2000 years ago and nobody can get JC and Big G on the telephone. So it's an impossible situation. Either keep believing or create a new religion where women could be more involved in the servitude. We already have over 4000 religions around the world. So another one won't be such a bad thing.

[Maalavika]

Benarji wrote: "@Katelyn @Avalonia Night

It doesn't favour men. Let's talk probability. What are the odds of finding a single black marble in a pool of white marbles? Even if you take a hundred tries, it isn't gu..."
First of all,world isn't a pool and people are not marbles.If it were ,things would've been easier but it isn't.And no,men weren't exposed to social environments longer, women were just deprived of them longer.But,please point out to me any field today where women don't excel,I would love to know,And do a computer search of male female ratio of college graduates and the results would probably surprise you."The male-female ratio in higher education has been steadily moved in favor of the females ever since the 1970s. Total enrollment figures show that females outnumbered their male counterparts for the first time in the late 1970s, and they have steadily increased their numerical advantage ever since. The superiority first came in public universities, but soon private universities saw female enrollment surpass male enrollment."I just copied that from a forbes survey site.And it stands incontrast to your statement that "
In a pool of a thousand, probably there would be ten women in contrast to a hundreds of men. "
And no,I too am not here to say that women are superior to men,but I would like to know about those women asking to be spoon fed because none I know have ever done that but overcame all odds out of sheer hardwork and determination.
And,I don't suppose you are a History graduate,are you?Because we did have this problem 2000 years back but it went unrepresented because, again,of patriarchy.
And I don't think I have authorised anyone,let alone you,to tell me how women are treated in my religion and I don't think so of anybody else here too.It is not an impossible situation because I decide whom I pray to and what it symbolises.And if a bit more curious,I would suggest you to research(only if curious) on these so called world religions,4000,in number and you would find that most were a result of socio economic conditions of the area and the unfair representation of women,again,was a result of patriarchy and no.BIG G did not directly authorise to be like that.And,yeah,thanks but no thanks,

[Agnes Szalkowska]

OMG I can't believe that I write about religion . Oh well .

First we need to understand this :

First, we should define feminism, since the term can have different meanings for different people. Basically, feminism is a philosophy that advocates equal rights for women and men—socially, politically, economically, and in other ways. Early feminists fought for and won suffrage for women. Today’s feminism goes further than demanding equal treatment of men and women, however. Modern feminists fight for language equality (saying “chairperson” instead of “chairman,” even if the person in question is male) and gender equality (redefining femininity and masculinity). The more radical feminists actively seek to overthrow any vestige of male dominance in society, to the point of opposing the biblical roles of husbands and wives, defending abortion on demand, and promoting lesbianism. Radical feminists deny there is any difference between men and women, teaching that any perceived differences between the sexes are due solely to social conditioning.

Modern feminism is a counterfeit solution to the real issue of the inequality of women in a sinful society. Feminism arrogates to itself the right to demand respect and equality in every aspect of life. Feminism is based in arrogance, and it is the opposite of the call to the born-again believer to be a servant. The modern, militant feminists call women to rise up and rebel against the order that God has given to mankind. That brand of feminism seeks to impose humanistic values in direct opposition to the Word of God. Feminism was originally a positive movement, focused on giving women the basic rights God intends for every human being to have. Tragically, feminism now focuses on destroying all distinctions in the roles of men and women.

So

Question: "What does the Bible say about feminism? Should a Christian be a feminist?"

Answer: This question is especially important to Christian women. Does the Word of God address feminism? The modern concept of feminism was not present during the time that the Bible was written, but that does not mean the Bible has nothing to say on the basic issues of feminism. Even when the Scriptures seem to be silent on something that affects us today, there are eternal principles that speak to the underlying issue.

What then should be a Christian’s view of feminism? A believing woman, who is seeking to obey God and walk in peace and grace, should remember that she has equal access to all spiritual blessings in Christ. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28). A believing woman should not allow herself to be used as a pawn in the worldly agenda of the feminist movement. Men and women have a God-given privilege to fulfill the plan He has set for us. Rebellion against that plan and the arrogance that seeks to put self above God’s Word bring difficult consequences. We see those consequences in the destruction of the relationship between husbands and wives, the destruction of the family, and the loss of respect for human life.

“For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world” (1 John 2:16). The principles of the fall are present in this verse. Eve believed the lie that eating the fruit would bring her wisdom. She lusted, and she took something that was forbidden. This is the basis for the modern feminist movement. Women have bought into the lie that feminism will bring them the power and freedom they think they want and deserve. However, the promise is empty, for the premise is rooted in pride—and pride goes before a fall (Proverbs 16:18).

The last decades have seen the rise of a society that is so concerned with political correctness and so sensitive to being “offended” that civility has lost its way. However, this is really nothing new, for there has always been inequality in the world. It is sad but true that artificial barriers have always divided humanity—barriers that have no basis in God’s Word. It is sin in the heart that causes inequality. It is sin that causes men to treat women in ways that are meant to demean or objectify them. And it is sin that seeks counterfeit solutions to counteract these inequalities. The only true cure for inequality is obedience to God’s Word. If men and women would walk in obedience to God’s Word, radical feminism would be seen for what it is, and the harmony that God has ordained between men and women would result.

....... tbc sorry :)

[Agnes Szalkowska]

Bible Supports Feminism kinda :)

1. God designs females and males with equal dignity.

“Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion” (Genesis 1:26).

You and I have dignity because we bear God’s image as humans (Genesis 5:1-2). Male and female equally reflect God as unique persons; neither is superior. When we treat others with dignity, we value God’s image in them. Mistreating others is mishandling God’s masterpieces.

2. God assigns important work to all humans.

In one breath, God expresses mutual purposes for male and female: “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth” (Genesis 1:28).

Although different physiologically, God intends male and female to complete each other in a unity; children are the fruit of a couple’s union. Scripture also points at important work of single people and those who do not have children (1 Corinthians 7:8-9). Jesus never married, after all.

Clearly, God’s assignments include a range of possibilities. The Hebrew words for subdue and have dominion point at taking care of, serving, guarding, watching over, preserving and caring for others and the world. When we honor each other’s unique callings, we build God’s realm.

3. God intends male and female to contribute their unique strengths to benefit each other and the world.

God orchestrated a parade of animals to show the first man he could not possibly do all the work alone (Genesis 2:19-20). He was half a community without someone to help.

The description of the woman as “a help” is the same word used to describe God and military protectors and allies (19 out of 21 times in the Old Testament). God only declared humanity “very good” after completing the masterpiece. We do well to honor the strength of women working alongside men.

4. Humans are sinful, and Christians are called to fight injustices.

“Our offenses are ever with us, and we acknowledge our iniquities: Rebellion and treachery against the Lord, turning our backs on our God, inciting revolt and oppression” (Isaiah 59:12,13).

The Old Testament traces what happens as a result of humans abandoning God’s purposes. To this day, many experience less-than-human treatment, especially women and children. Attitudes of superiority play into devaluing others through stereotyping, minimizing, competitiveness, withholding resources, dominating, etc.

Sin is the belly of sexism, racism, classism and other forms of systemic inequality resulting in inequitable education/training/opportunity/pay; harassment; domestic and sexual violence; pornography; sex trafficking; slavery; and other crimes. As Christians, we are called to fight for justice in these areas (Isaiah 1:17).

It can be easy to criticize the way some people have gone about fighting for justice in various women’s issues, but Christians should respond to even misguided justice efforts graciously in Jesus’ name.

“Live wisely among those who are not believers, and make the most of every opportunity. Let your conversation be gracious and attractive so that you will have the right response for everyone” (Colossians 4:5-6).

Three main branches of second-wave feminism take differing approaches to overcoming gender inequality. Radical feminism, associated with deep hurt and anger, emphasizes female jurisdiction and overcoming evils of patriarchy. Liberal feminism, known for valuing androgyny, seeks reform through education, equal political rights and economic opportunities, and exploring terminology and values. Marxist feminism pursues economic opportunity, freedom from racial and gender oppression and prosperity to all.

Time does not permit critiquing each one, biblically, but we can be sure Jesus would not “throw stones” at secular feminists (John 8:1-11).
5. The spirit of Jesus can restore broken, divided humans to wholeness and unity.

“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me” (John 17:22-23).

Jesus brings divided humanity to a new unity. The world pays attention when we treat each other in the ways we want to be treated (Matthew 7:12).

Evangelical feminists believe there is hope for redeeming communities from age-old conflicts (Ephesians 2:4-9). God has given us power to incarnate Jesus. Doing so enables rising above attitudes of superiority that result in stereotyping, minimizing, competitiveness, withholding resources, dominating, etc. And it enlivens us to oppose structures supporting inequitable education/training/opportunity/pay, harassment, domestic and sexual violence, pornography, sex trafficking, slavery and other crimes. Ground is fertile for bringing light, hope and wholeness to lives and communities in Jesus’ name.

“But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light.”

So people we need to know correct interpretation of the bible compare to century . When the Bible was written feminism not existed well not in that form any way . Every years and century we got more to fighting for and complain . Because we living in the present with little step forward :) we cant' fight for the past. You don't change the past , you can make sure to change present and future.

Ok I hope you know what I mean . I hope so any way .

[Pippa]

Benarji wrote: "@Katelyn @Avalonia Night

It doesn't favour men. Let's talk probability. What are the odds of finding a single black marble in a pool of white marbles? Even if you take a hundred tries, it isn't gu..."

Patriarchy favours men by literal definition. To deny that it does shows a gross misunderstanding of what patriarchal society actually is: "in which males hold primary power and predominate in roles of political leadership, moral authority, social privilege and control of property."

Many civilisations have been patriarchal for millennia - covering the 2000 years you mentioned - and women have been expected to play very specific roles, to our detriment. Until comparatively recently, only men could inherit property and the dowry they received upon marrying, while theoretically intended to pay for their wife's needs, went into the husband's pocket. Men of colour were given the right to vote before women ever were. Only a matter of decades ago (70s-ish), pregnant unmarried women for whom abortion was never an option were locked away in asylums.

"It isn't as if men are against the idea of having a women-led corporation." -- You may be speaking for yourself here, but you'd be surprised how little truth there is to this statement in certain areas.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Wow, good work, Agnes! I applaud your deep dive here.

Benarji, there are also studies that show that individuals are less likely to pursue certain career paths and/or succeed in said careers if they have not been shown that others with whom they identify have succeeded in those areas. In this way, the lack of women (and other minorities) at the "top" in various sectors creates a cyclical disadvantage.

It's not only about perception of women pursuing jobs, or the very surface-level equality offered to women that allows them to apply for said jobs. The problem is with the systemic forces that prevent women from pursuing and succeeding in those areas in the first place. For example, various programs that work to give girls better exposure to STEM fields have drastically increased the numbers of women pursuing those careers and succeeding in them.

Patriarchy favors men and masculinity. Period.

[Kathryn]

Spirituality is the most empowering form of religion that I have ever encountered. The church may view men and women as semi-equal today but the history of Christianity was so patriarchal and even went as far as to kill thousands of women who were healers and who believed in the old religion. I love spirituality because many of the leaders of spiritual traditions are women, and empowerment is a theme with nature also being held in high esteem.

[Maalavika]

Agnes Szalkowska wrote: "Bible Supports Feminism kinda :)

1. God designs females and males with equal dignity.

“Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion” (Genesis 1:26).
..."
Agnes,I see what you mean.No religions,in my opinion,see women as particularly demeaning and no doctrine advocates this.It is the subjective interpretations that deem women unequal.We got more to fight and to complain because the wold,its views changed.Nobody now believes that Earth is the centre of solar system.Beliefs will and should be altered.A person not believing in evolution would be a fool today but that was not the case when Bible was written.And frankly,women and men are not equal.They are both sparklingly different,yet substantially similar specimens of craftsmanship.
And why does it have to be that every action of ours is guided by sin?I mean,what is this sin.A thought that attempts to question is sin?Why doesn't people have the right to choose what to believe and how to live?If we have think,live and move according to God,then aren't we all just slaves?

[Benarji]

Avalonia Night wrote: "Benarji wrote: "@Katelyn @Avalonia Night

It doesn't favour men. Let's talk probability. What are the odds of finding a single black marble in a pool of white marbles? Even if you take a hundred tr..."

There's 7.6 billion marbles in the world, my dear. It's your choice to see us as whatever you want but it doesn't change the facts. We, human can only be categorised when viewed from afar, when viewed nearer, we become characterised. If you do believe that woman is superior to men, why do you challenge patriarchy? Seems like you are a little uncertain yourself. The truth is that you are just a garbage truck. You have a tough life and you use feminism as a mean to dump your loads. You want to challenge patriarchy? Raise better quality women. You want to bring equal power balance? Educate women on leadership qualities. Nobody likes to work with idiots but nobody can recognise themselves as idiots. When problem exist in only one, we can rectify but when problem exist in a large volume, it becomes a generational issue. If you don't recognise it, you'll always be trapped in the limbo but you're really just a garbage truck, right? You just want to pretend that being a pain always gets you to have your way. So you prefer to live in denial.

[Benarji]

Katelyn wrote: "Wow, good work, Agnes! I applaud your deep dive here.

Benarji, there are also studies that show that individuals are less likely to pursue certain career paths and/or succeed in said careers if th..."

It isn't about education. Everybody have the right to study whatever they want. What people lack is the ability to deal with other humans. If you want power, you gotta learn man management skills. You cannot just say that, "Oh! I have a PhD. Therefore, I'm most qualified to assume the position of CEO". I believe in empowerment, not crybabies who always think that they'll get their ways by fake crying. You'll be surprise that man are more accepting of women than you give us credit for but women have to stop looking for excuses to self-sabotage themselves as if men are out to get them.

[Benarji]

@meelie
I've also heard of cases where women are asked if they're married, newly-weds or if they're planning on having a child soon. Although if we rationalize ourselves to see things from the company perspective, they would have to pay for her absence after her labor and some (I'm not saying all) would quit after their labor leaves is used up but it definitely dampens the chance for a women to secure a job, if she's pregnant, especially if it's entry level.

More women are educated these days and they definitely don't lack the talent and work ethics. Professionalism isn't an issue. Also, women these days are less superstitious and some even work until they're due to deliver. Yet many employers are still unconsciously bias when it comes to hiring women. It is a social stereotype that I hope could be rectified to provide women a better career opportunity, instead of jumping guns and seeing them as liabilities to the company. I believe that the only time it's reasonable for a company to turn down an application is if she's in her 3-4 months pregnancy. Otherwise, she can be trained to be an asset for the company in the long run.

[I]

Katelyn wrote: "Wow, good work, Agnes! I applaud your deep dive here". Yes, I agree. Good answer!

Meelie wrote: "Whilst not every company out there have patriarchal ideologies, some still do. And that’s where the problem is". I Agree.

Thank you very much everyone for comment. :) :)

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Benarji, the "social stereotype" that you refer to in your most recent post (Message 25 of this thread) is a perfect example of how patriarchy negatively impacts women's job prospects. I'm glad you agree!

And as for your suggestion that we "Raise better quality women" and "Educate women on leadership qualities", these are great examples of what feminism tries to accomplish, although I'd add that we'd like to raise better qualities in all people, not just women.

Also, please don't call other members "garbage trucks". I get the sense that you were using metaphor but it comes across quite rude.

[Benarji]

Katelyn wrote: "And as for your suggestion that we "Raise better quality women" and "Educate women on leadership qualities", these are great examples of what feminism tries to accomplish, although I'd add that we'd like to raise better qualities in all people, not just women."

It's not something that can be achieved in the next couple of weeks, months or even years. It might take a generation but ensuring that women are on the right track, is most important. Otherwise, they would all be derailed. Knowing what's to fight for and what needs to be rectified, helps to keep us on track.

I'll consider your piece of advice but I only treat people the way that they want to be treated and I can only reason with people who wants to be reasoned. Thank you.

[Maalavika]

Benarji wrote: "Avalonia Night wrote: "Benarji wrote: "@Katelyn @Avalonia Night

It doesn't favour men. Let's talk probability. What are the odds of finding a single black marble in a pool of white marbles? Even i..."
Okay,here's the deal.
Never in my post did I say women are superior.But your posts scream "MEN ARE SUPERIOR,its no use fighting"
And maybe,the garbage truck analogy is right,.Because the garbage in the truck are male chauvinists ,like you know who...???
And didn't you get it,or are you playing the fool?Didn't you get my answer for the twisted ratio of"one in ten men" you invented?Stats scream that the ratio of male female college graduates favour women.
Feminism is not something that garbage trucks use to get their way, dear.It is empowering women to throw off the stinking chauvinist garbage on their backs and fly,dear."Nobody likes to work with idiots but nobody can recognise themselves as idiots"
Great Mantra,BTW.I'm sure you repeat it to yourself every morning,dear.

[[deleted user]]

Hi everybody 😊

I'm taking a risk answering you and receive a lot of hate, but aren't we an inter-sectional feminist book club 🙈

I do not believe that Religions, in general, are correlated to patriarchy, even may-be in their strict application, Islamism or Judaism.

I also believe we shouldn't confound The history of feminism and the History correlated to religion.

I mean, Feminism is all about giving women the right to be equal to men... However we have to accept that women and men are different and have both qualities, that are necessary for certain jobs.

I take an example, where you will probably never find as many men than women, The S.W.A.T. The first reason, is Men and Women doesn't have the same Muscle capabilities, even if some women are stronger than men, most of the women, are weaker than men, and you can't really change that, because of our biological constitution. The second reason, is that you need to be interested in being a member of such a unit as a woman, and I believe that modern feminism, even if exemples of such a woman are taken regularly and shown to motivate, and reinforce women determination to fight for their right, is more focus on the "Average 30 New York Living young transgender or cisgender working and active mother or willing to be a mother ".
The Third reason is the fact that men doesn't carry children's, even if I believe that shouldn't be a problem, and be correlated to her salary, that's a matter of fact that a woman will have to take time for her new born baby and for recovery...

Sometimes I wonder if women are not paid less because of the fact they can do both speaking and working at the same time, according to "Men are from Mars and Women from Venus", which may lead, as women are always talking, to a lack of performance of the company's production... So may be for to compensate that disadvantage... Ok it's a joke but whatever...

If we agree on the fact that Women and Men are biologically different and must have the same Rights according to The Declaration of Human Rights, we should find a solution for to give every body the same right to access jobs or position, that were held by men for years, regardless of their religious appartenance.

For me, religion, were created for to allow people to live in harmony in a world were the Laws were different and there was a lack of knowledge (Lack of Education, to quote our supreme leader),by giving them rules to follow to avoid thief, rapes, crimes in general.

In my opinion today, the real subject is for me in eastern countries "The lack of representation", one more time, to quote our dear and fearless, I love to call supreme leader, to get her a little bit angry and I love to rag a bit... 😋🙈

Hope every one is having sun and love !!

Feministicaly yours

xoxoxo
Charles

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Charles, I agree with much of what you've said, but want to push back on the argument you're making that is borderline biological determinism (if I've understood you correctly). While there are certainly some jobs that may be easier for men due to muscle mass and other physical characteristics, that does not mean that women are incapable of them entirely. And more importantly, this is frankly irrelevant for most jobs.

And I'm not really sure what you're arguing when you talk about women talking at work? I find that pretty sexist.


Benarji, I was not offering advice. I am a moderator here, and if you continue to insult other members in this fashion, you will be banned. We are open to discussing different views here, but we will not tolerate disrespect. So again, please do not insult other members. It is not advice. It is a warning.

[[deleted user]]

@Katelyn : That was a joke, a witticism... I'm actually trying to figure out why is that a woman is paid less than a Man....

They can't be paid regarding their physical performance, because we all agree on the fact that women are also capable of doing some considered hard men work...

The fact that they will have to take maternity leaves, could be actually an answer but, i'm not sure it's a relevant argument...

I know it's not always easy for young mother that want have a career because of that, and they ofently have to choose between having a baby and a carreer... Which is around the world commonly "accepted" as a matter of fact for middle and superior classes well educated women... Can be taken as a result of patriarchy but also as a consequence of trying to be focus on their carreer... Because the society tells you, that you must first have adegree, then a job, then a husband and then a career or a baby... Or both for the strongest... (If you find me sexist, don't hesistate to tell me f(-.-;) ... )

Well, it's more like a "reductio ad absurdum" but not a "Reducto" on women capabilities 😅😂😋🙈

So, "Voilà", I tryed to be fun keeping an open mind while searching for an explanation of something a may be a "sexist white patriarch" defined years ago...

I think that it's really cool that Fierces Femmes try to demonstrate men that they are capable of doing jobs that are not "commonly" women jobs, one more time, I strongly believe for many reason that an objectif of "Parity" in certain jobs won't be easy to success, while proving it's possible is easier to obtain...

xoxoxo

[[deleted user]]

I am not a big fan of "considered hard men work.", why a work should be considered a man or woman work?

Not sure to understand the "maternity leave" argument.
Everything that will follow is about the French system I don't know about other countries. In France when you are having a Maternity Leave, different criteria need to be fulfilled. https://www.ameli.fr/assure/rembourse... (sorry it's in French). Everyone (who is having a payslip) pay contribution to CPAM (caisse primaire d'assurance maladie commonly called in France Social Security). Part of the contribution is used for "daily compensations" during Maternity Leaves. The professional contract with your employer is suspended during the maternity leave which means that you cannot be dismissed and that you will get back your position after your maternity leave is finished.
What I just wrote comes from the website I cited which is the Online Platform of French Social Security. I hope people will understand why I'm not planning to translate all of the information in that website :) at least you have the data so you can check.

So to conclude on that point I fail to see how Maternity Leave could be (in France) an argument.

If I was you I would be cautious with Jokes unless it's self-mockery. Indeed, when I read your Joke I felt it was not funny at all and that it was a sexist joke. Just an advice ;)

[Maalavika]

Even though I sometimes get hot tempered and makes it supreme to prove my point,I am immensely happy and surprised about the discipline and respect that people here have for each other(except some,yes I meant you).I applaud all of you and the moderators for this group beacuse by just having such a platform to discuss issues without getting at each others' throats might be enough for the world.
To all the moderate,radical and extremists
Avalonia

[Benarji]

Is that a threat, Katelyn? I suggest that you make your threat to count cause I'll never change to fit the bookclub. Maybe that's your ideology of feminism. So I'll take your advice into consideration because I know that I haven't crossed the line. You are biased and it shows. Do you really think that I wanna be here? You are free to ban me. I don't need to be here. Thank you for the opportunity to be a part of the bookclub. I think it's better that I see myself out than to allow myself to be treated unjustly. Hopefully you will be matured enough in the near future to actually be a true representation of a leader, not just a moderator in some bookclub. The same goes for the rest of you lots. Bunch of classless fools.

[[deleted user]]

Florian wrote: "I am not a big fan of "considered hard men work.", why a work should be considered a man or woman work?

Not sure to understand the "maternity leave" argument.
Everything that will follow is abou..."

Ok florian, I understand your "Jealousy", but if you take the time to read what I wrote, I try to be the more inclusive and generalist as possible...

I accept you may desagree with me, but it appears that every time you talk to me you seem to be a little bit frustrated not get enough attention, so i want to be clear on that point...

as it is a book club where i'm nobody, and really happy to start making "friends" i will appreciate, that you respect me as i do respect you... I take your advice as a violent threat, and that doesn't really please me, because we are a "book club" 😉

One more time, you should read my post again, instead of trying to get out of the sight of our beloved suprem leader 😉

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Benarji wrote: "Is that a threat, Katelyn? I suggest that you make your threat to count cause I'll never change to fit the bookclub. Maybe that's your ideology of feminism. So I'll take your advice into considerat..."

I believe I was quite clear that it was a warning. No need to change your views to fit the book club, as we are open to robust debate here, but we do expect our members to conduct themselves with maturity. Insulting other members is against our rules, and if you are unable to follow our rules, that is on you and has nothing to do with the moderation team's leadership capabilities. You're welcome to see yourself out, but if you continue to insult other members, we'll go ahead and do it for you.

[Maalavika]

Benarji wrote: "Is that a threat, Katelyn? I suggest that you make your threat to count cause I'll never change to fit the bookclub. Maybe that's your ideology of feminism. So I'll take your advice into considerat..."
Your words are a reflection of your true self.

[Sandra]

Benarji wrote: "Is that a threat, Katelyn? I suggest that you make your threat to count cause I'll never change to fit the bookclub. Maybe that's your ideology of feminism. So I'll take your advice into considerat..."

sorry to say, but it looks like katelyn was right on the money here. in your post, benarji, you called people 'classless fools'. that is both negative name-calling, and disrespect to other members here. not cool, and as you've discovered, not tolerated.

thank you, katelyn, for helping to keep this site safe for all. thanks to all the mods for what they do.

[I]

Benarji is full of hatred. He needs wisdom. He should read this biblical quote: Proverbs 3: 3-4
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:

4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.

[[deleted user]]

I wrote: "Benarji is full of hatred. He needs wisdom. He should read this biblical quote: Proverbs 3: 3-4
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine..."

I feel sometimes the wind of mediocrity, hatred and jealousy blowing on people having a real will to make things change...

Some doesn't recognize an old ofently-used patriarchist argument to discriminate women, and pretend to teach others "how it works" in their country, while some are speaking about another... (country)

Some doesn't accept the true patriarchist side of their religion.... And finaly reveal their pathetic and arogant frustated angry machist dominative male side while open minded women doesn't want to bend over their opinion.

And for to answer your very first comment on that topic : @I I believe that, for some reason, we can only consider a religion, a Patriarchist, when there are no women to teach it... ?

And may be and I appologize to insist, religions are partriarchist because of the fact, that when there were no schools and gyms, men were stronger than women... Some religions did evolve, some other took more time to do so, and some, did'nt even think about it ... 🤔

In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti 😉

xoxoxo

[[deleted user]]

In Star Wars: The Last Jedi, Rose asserts herself before Finn, "We will not win by destroying that which we hate but by preserving that which we love."

https://binged.it/2FhIwKi

https://open.spotify.com/track/4lPylL...

[Sandra]

Theodore wrote: "In Star Wars: The Last Jedi, Rose asserts herself before Finn, "We will not win by destroying that which we hate but by preserving that which we love.""

amen