Fen - Story by Story Discussion (partial spoilers) (Mar 2019)

[Hugh]

If possible, I would like to discuss these stories one at a time, but a separate topic for each story might be too many.

If we space them out through the whole month, taking the length of each story into account, we get the following start dates. For now, let's try not to discuss the stories before these dates (I may change things if it gets too quiet!):

1st March - Starver
3rd - Blood Rites
5th - A Bruise the Shape and Size of a Door Handle
7th - How to Lose it
10th - How to F**k a Man You Don't Know .
12th - Language
15th - The Superstition of Albatross
17th - A Heavy Devotion
19th - The Scattering
25th - Birthing Stones
27th - The Cull
29th - The Lighthouse Keeper

I will create a separate whole book thread for anyone who wants to discuss things at a higher level without spoiling.

So let's start with Starver. What were your initial impressions? How did you find the writing/style? Anything else you want to say?

[Peter]

It's smart to start the collection with your strongest story, and I thought "Starver" fit the bill in that respect.

[LindaJ^]

I liked Starver. I found the eel story at the beginning intriguing. I confess that the significance did not strike me until the end, although as I thought about it, there were a earlier clues.

[Whitney]

Loved this book from the first story. Without saying too much about the other stories, they are all connected to a greater or lessor degree. This was the perfect story to start the collection and layout the themes.

I thought the Guardian review captured the feel of the book well by saying the stories are set in a liminal landscape. "Starver" gives us the initial description of the fens and their transformation; a landscape unnaturally dredged out of marshlands and at constant imminence of reverting back to its prior state. Adolescent girls are in the most liminal of human states, as well, for obvious reasons.

Spoiler for thematic through-lines only:
(view spoiler)[ The opening story introduces the recurring themes of liminality, transformation, and female sexuality. (hide spoiler)]

The only other place I've encountered the fens in literature is Graham Swift's Waterland, which I read too long ago to draw too many comparisons, but his landscape descriptions were memorable. I recall Swift also used eels juxtaposed with adolescent girls as not-so-subtle sexual metaphor. I suspect Johnson may have been making an intentional reference. Taking the agency of the eel metaphor away from the boys in Waterland, who use it to taunt the main female character, and giving its power to the older sister of "Starver".

[Marc]

Some other uses of the fens in literature:
http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/fens.htm

[June]

Marc wrote: "Some other uses of the fens in literature:
http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/fens..."

Thanks to you and Whitney for your comments re: the fens. I'm in the US, but my brother lives near Peterborough, and I've visited Flag Fen with him. The idea that the land there is on verge of reverting back to water at any time is fascinating to me.

I have a weird love of all things watery in literature and art and can recommend the following for any other water-lovers: Alice Oswald's Dart, which is told through the voices of those who live and work on the River Dart in Devon and Esther Kinsky's River. Of course, Everything Under is also wonderfully watery and liminal.

[Marc]

June wrote: "I have a weird love of all things watery in literature and art..."

There's something very primal about water. I don't know if that's because we start out surrounded by amniotic fluid in the womb or just because it's so essential to our daily survival, but I'd never even heard of a fen before this book and I'm smitten with the whole concept and how it's being used thus far. Thank you for those other suggestions, June!

[LindaJ^]

Marc wrote: "Some other uses of the fens in literature:
http://www.literarynorfolk.co.uk/fens..."

Thanks Mark. Very useful link!

[Marc]

Credit to Whitney--it was her post that inspired me to look up the connection between literature and the fens.

[Hugh]

Just been catching up with the discussion and it is fantastic - some really interesting thoughts.

[Hugh]

One more book in which The Fens play an important part is The Wake by Paul Kingsnorth.

[Hugh]

Thanks for the reminder David. Yes. we should start discussing Blood Rites today. Another pretty dark story - any more thoughts anyone?

[Marc]

I didn't go into this collection expecting any hard connections between the stories, but building on David's comments, we move from a story about a human female that refuses to eat and becomes part of the animal world ("Starver") to a story about a group of female predators (of unknown species) whose sole purpose seems to be feeding ("Blood Rites"). When they turn their attention to their favored prey (men), it ends up planting a kind of ghost of the animal world inside them... I'm not really sure how to characterize what happens. All I can really say is that I love the fluidity in these stories---a slipping from animal to human to other. There's seems to be a constant push-and-pull of desire in these stories laced with a kind of mystery...

That's not really the right word. It's like there's a dark, primal magic to both the sexuality and the physical manifestations/changes to these characters. Anyone have a better word for this? It feels vaguely threatening, a kind of dangerous power beyond control.

(I'm a couple stories ahead at this point, but was sold/all-in after reading the first one. This is my first time reading Johnson.)

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "I didn't go into this collection expecting any hard connections between the stories, but building on David's comments, we move from a story about a human female that refuses to eat and becomes part..."

There are people that reappear in different stories, but I also see the connections as mostly thematic in nature. The reoccurring characters show more than this is a shared world of transformations. Those thematic connections make it hard to discuss the stories in a vacuum, I'll probably hold most my comments for the entire book thread.

[Marc]

Eros might work, but it's the kind of supernatural element I'm struggling to characterize. Much like you, David, it also felt to me like the three women were sisters or somehow bound by more than just being the same type of hunters. It feels like there is a shared risk to all these encounters, like predator and prey are mysteries to one another.

It starts with the draining of the land in "Starver." The eels themselves will not eat after the land is drained. Then Katy decides not to eat and eventually becomes an eel. In "Blood Rites" not only do the men live on inside of the women once eaten ("their language stayed with you"), their knowledge/empathy for animals begins to invoke a kind of physical empathy understanding inside the "predator." It's like the nature or the land is pulling back, trying to reclaim something.

[Whitney]

One thing that did stand out (on second reading of this story) is that these women, contrary to their apparent age, are by their behavior adolescent girls. Their house is a mess of tossed aside clothing. They play dress-up, they lounge around listening to Leonard Cohen records, they have signed movie posters on the wall (from Director January Hargreave, who is fictitious, and also mentioned in the next story, fwiw).

I think they are an extreme form of Johnson's lead in all of these stories, adolescent girls discovering sexuality; its powers and pitfalls and the ways in which it transforms. The title "Blood Rites" is almost certainly doing double duty.

(Okay, maybe I won't hold my comments for the entire book thread.)

[Marc]

Are they, perhaps, perpetually young/adolescent? I'm asking because they speak of having "learnt men the way other people learnt languages or the violin" when they were "younger." And they've moved from Paris after, presumably, living there as a threesome.

Don't hold those comments! :D

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "Eros might work, but it's the kind of supernatural element I'm struggling to characterize. Much like you, David, it also felt to me like the three women were sisters or somehow bound by more than j..."

I didn't see your post before my previous one. I got the same idea as you and David, that they were sisters by nature if not by biology.

It's like the nature or the land is pulling back, trying to reclaim something. .

I love this, and I can see it as another through-line in the stories. It's in keeping with the central metaphor of the fens themselves and their constant pull to return to the marshes and ocean.

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "Are they, perhaps, perpetually young/adolescent? I'm asking because they speak of having "learnt men the way other people learnt languages or the violin" when they were "younger." And they've moved..."

Stop sneaking in posts while I'm typing!

And, yes, I think you're right. They are a sort of reverse vampire, outwardly aging while remaining fundamentally adolescent.

[Nadine in California]

Whitney wrote: "It's like the nature or the land is pulling back, trying to reclaim something.

I love this, and I can see it as another through-line in the stories. It's in keeping with the central metaphor of the fens themselves and their constant pull to return to the marshes and ocean. .."

Yes, and I get the feeling that the fen is malevolent and vengeful, but operating on a slow, vegetational (is that a word?) time scale.

[LindaJ^]

I reread this short story last night. I also felt they were sisters. I did not, however, feel that they were adolescents. They seem to be quite experienced in "capturing" men. What seems different to their experience now, as opposed to Paris, is that they are taking on the traits of the two men they have eaten since coming to the fens. And this seems related to the fact that these men, unlike ones they have previously feasted upon, keep their emotions more tightly bound up, except it seems when they are drinking.

Nadine, interesting that you are "feeling that the fen is malevolent and vengeful." I'm thinking more on the line that the fen wants to keep its own and is not going to easily let them go.

[Whitney]

I guess I should have said "adolescent by nature". They are certainly older in years and experience.

I also didn't see the fens as malevolent, although they might appear so to outsiders. It's just their nature to, as you say, to keep their own.

[Hugh]

Let's move on to A Bruise the Size and Shape of a Door Handle

[Whitney]

I love haunted house stories!

[Hugh]

Thanks David - I clearly need to read this one again to refresh my memory

[LindaJ^]

I just re-read this to see if I recollected it properly.

Is the house haunted or sentient itself? I'm leaning to the sentient side. To me, Salma stirred the house to action by telling it about Margot, because she had no one else to talk to whether it was about Margot or about starting to menstruate. Salma's father doesn't appear too engaged in parenting.

Is the house jealous or did it consume Margot to see if it could feel what Salma felt? Did the consumption of Margot change the house so that it is now jealous of the boys Salma brings home or is the house taking on some parenting responsibility?

I think this is the first mention of the Fox and the Hound and its pregnant barkeeper.

[Whitney]

Good Lord, you people are nit-picky! Yes the house is sentient. I put sentient houses under the general heading of "haunted houses".

As does Johnson herself in the following interview. Definitely worth a read, among other things she discusses some of her experiences that went into "A Bruise".
http://americanshortfiction.org/2017/...

[Hugh]

Now open to thoughts on How to Lose It

[Hugh]

After three stories with strong elements of fantasy, this one seemed much more grounded in reality...

[LindaJ^]

Whitney wrote: "Good Lord, you people are nit-picky! Yes the house is sentient. I put sentient houses under the general heading of "haunted houses".

As does Johnson herself in the following interview. Definitely..."

Thanks Whitney for the link to the interview, which was very informative. Interesting to me, in particular, were the authors she turns to. I look forward to her horror novel. Some of the stories in this collection show she has the potential for a blockbuster horror novel!

[Marc]

I went back and reread "A Bruise the Shape and... " with the above comments & questions in mind. The house doesn't come to life until Salma turns 13 and has her period. Although her mother had characterized her father as a horndog, essentially, he never brings any women back to the house and we never hear of any women in his life. Might be a far-fetched theory, but the house could also be seen as manifesting the father's sexuality and/or possessiveness... except that we never see any hint of this from him. And the house definitely has got a thing for Salma, especially after Salma confides in it about her feelings for Margot. In addition to the physically evocative descriptions of the house and its reactions, we get:

- [The house] loved [Salma] darkly and greatly with a huge, gut-swallowing want...
- The house did not have the human complication to worry that its love spun often into hate.

It's unclear whether Margot goes to the house on her own or is somehow seduced, but after the house swallows her whole, it still sort of ejects the boys Salma brings home:

The house showed its displeasure: her feet bloody, the sound of the boys falling with a whoomph from the drainpipe.

It kind of ends with the house assuming Margot's role by automatically turning on the TV and tuning to films Margot praised. Is it still a love triangle if one member has consumed another? A whole new spin on the term house envy!

[LindaJ^]

And the House, post the eating of Margot, seems to be acting like the girls in the previous story who ate the men and then started exhibiting their personalities. I for one think that existing in the fens brings risk.

[Marc]

I think you're right to resist linking the father to the house, David.

Linda, I think "existing in the fens" is what ties all this together. Inexplicable things happen there. And they're mostly hidden from view.

[Peter]

David wrote: "“How To Lose It”: This is the first story that disappointed me. I am not sure if my reaction is based solely on how I feel about this story in the context of the book overall, or if I would still h..."

Last night I wrote a brief review of the book, and like you I felt that this was the point where Johnson kind of lost her way. As you say, it's not a bad story, but it feels like a break from the entrancing feeling I had of being sucked into the borderline supernatural world of the fens by the opening stories. Indeed, I felt this every time Johnson included a purely realist story, as if she were breaking the rules she had set out at the beginning.

[LindaJ^]

I thought How to Lose it was a good story but agree that it lacked the supernatural vibe of the first three stories. It did have water, though!

[Hugh]

Thanks David - interesting thoughts. I only censored the title because it was in bold in the first post of the discussion.

[LindaJ^]

Like David, it took me a while to appreciate that we were going backwards in a relationship - from breakup to get together. I'm not familiar with Betrayal so won't be commenting on David's observation of the similarities. I did feel the supernatural here and wondered if it was the fens working its form of magic that caused the relationship breakup. I like the use of the Fox and Hound and the pregnant barkeep in the story - it kept me centered in the fens.

[Hugh]

Any thoughts on Language?

[Marc]

I don't know that this particular story lends itself to a really concrete explanation. I do think language itself is one of those themes that is sprinkled throughout these stories and taking on a larger role (In "Starver" not only does Katy stop eating but for short periods, she refuses to talk, as well; in "Blood Rites" they describe learning men the way some people learn languages, as well as commenting on how one of the men they lure online uses foul language to the point of making it meaningless--and in the end, it is the language of the men they've consumed that begins to come out of their own mouths; in "A Bruise the Shape Of... " Salma words burn inside of her to the point she must tell them to the house which has no words to respond, but certainly communicates through a kind of language of its own; in "How to Lose It" there's a fair amount of dialogue requesting things be done or clothes be taken off and the whole story revolves around telling the tale of "the first time," or, as the title says, "losing it".

While Harrow is alive, language fails him, Nora basically ignores every line he feeds her knowing that his desire and her physical presence will trump whatever he says about having other plans, not wanting to be committed, needing to go). Plus, he's not real smart, so she's not really able to communicate easily with him verbally, especially when she thinks of them as entangled particles.

I'm just sort of thinking through this one as I write, but a lot of these stories deal with shifting boundaries and power, especially when it comes to the body/desire/sex. Men and women sort of talking past one another or not necessarily speaking a common language but bodies being drawn to one another, leaving some sort of mark upon one another no matter who is the so called "victor." It's like a price is always being paid. Both Nora and Sarah basically control Harrow's body (Nora sexually and then Sarah through bringing him back from the dead), but his voice and language become a danger and threat to them. For them to live, he must be silenced.

I'm gonna go ahead and post this, but it's ramblings like this that make me wish someone was around here to silence me...

[Nadine in California]

I read this story a few weeks ago and don't have the book with me, but one thing I keep thinking about is that Harrow was buried in the ground (fen land) and returns with the fen somehow inside him and poisoning human language for him. Again, I'm going off of memory - I'm recalling him returning covered in dirt - which my imagination may be manufacturing.....

[Marc]

Appreciate you wading through my ramblings, David. I'm still thinking through how language relates to the collection as a whole.

I've been approaching this collection as if, as a reader, I'm expected to think the Fens effect everything to some extent, so Nadine's take makes sense. If we concentrate on the land, as well as Harrow's name, as David suggested, the connection becomes even stronger ("harrow (noun)--an implement consisting of a heavy frame set with teeth or tines which is dragged over plowed land to break up clods, remove weeds, and cover seed).

Two things that stood out to me upon rereading this story:
- Marriage as a sacrifice whose full extent Nora doesn't realize: "She'd never really given up something for anyone. You could do anything else, she told herself; you could break everything in half and scoop out the middle and put it back in. You could write a book or a play or cure infertility. She was eighteen and school was done and she could go to Cambridge or Oxford or London and study maths or English. She could travel. Except she had time for all that. And she had time for him." She sort of repeats this to herself when she's forced to counter him in the end: "She'd explained to herself before and---though the words didn't taste as good and fresh as they had that first time---did it again now: you could do anything." She gives up a huge part of herself to Harrow and not even death does them part...

- The other aspect I noticed was that she's "unfashionably" larger than the other girls at school in the beginning of the story, but then at the end, she's described as such: "The impact of his language on her over the weeks was clear. She'd never been bony before but she almost was now, the press of ribs more bruise than anything else, the stretch of cheekbone." Meanwhile, Harrow is getting bigger physically and more frightening. Kind of an inverse relationship going on between them physically (she's shrinking, but alive and sort of dying on the inside while he's growing, but undead... )

What did anyone make of the end where it's almost like she's grasping at any religious language she can to confront Harrow ("lines from the Qur'an", "phrases from the Torah and the Old Testament that she mouthed over, tried to hold onto")?

[Marc]

And thanks for that link, David!

[Nadine in California]

Marc wrote: What did anyone make of the end where it's almost like she's grasping at any religious language she can to confront Harrow ("lines from the Qur'an", "phrases from the Torah and the Old Testament that she mouthed over, tried to hold onto")?"

This felt like a desperate effort to ward off evil/danger. I keep returning to the idea of the fen as having a kind of barely sentient malevolence.

[Marc]

The Fens certainly don't give off a warm and friendly feel--that's for sure, Nadine!

[Whitney]

They make me think of some kind of alien intelligence out of a Stanislaus Lem book. Trying to communicate, but so alien that what results just seems weird and threatening.

Sorry I haven't been around, it's been a crazy couple weeks and I haven't had to energy to try and muster insightful comments, but I've been enjoying reading the ones from everyone else.

[Hugh]

Today we are open for comments on The Superstition of Albatross. I apologise for not finding the time to re-read this one yet.

[LindaJ^]

Nadine wrote: "Marc wrote: What did anyone make of the end where it's almost like she's grasping at any religious language she can to confront Harrow ("lines from the Qur'an", "phrases from the Torah and the Old ..."

What came to mind when I read this story was how like a golem the "arisen" Harrow was. I envisioned him as made of the fens mud. He seems to know how he is stripping Nora and his mother of the power they had over him but cannot stop. Nora's use of religious language seems an attempt to thwart the evil that has captured him.

And Mark, I think you are on to something about the men and woman in the stories talking at each other without understanding each other while their bodies are physically attracted - for better or worse. One without the other seems fatal in some respect in each story.

[Marc]

Seeing Harrow as a kind of golem seems brilliant to me, LindaJ^. I think the first thing Nora does is try and wash the dirt or mud off of him.

His mom won't let him die, his wife won't take him back as a muddy undead fellow--this guy can't get a break!

Need to reread the the albatross story again tonight before commenting, but I share some similar feelings/reactions as David (sans Stiller-Aniston naming theory, but only because I missed that movie completely!).

[Hugh]

Sorry David - it is easy to get distracted and forget that another start date has arrived. The Scattering is undoubtedly worth discussing at length if only because it is almost a novella, much longer than any of the other stories in the book.

[Nadine in California]

I'm still here! I had to return my copy to the library and request another. It arrived last night so I need a couple of days to catch up.