"Brown Girl in the Ring" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

What did you think of Ms. Hopkinson's first book? Did the blend of cultures and genres work for you?

[Christopher]

I gave this one a 3. I enjoyed the creativity of the setting and world-building — not sure I’ve ever encountered anything quite like it in my previous reads. The issues it raises regarding extreme wealth disparity and abandoned urban areas feels relevant. I’m glad this was selected as a group read as I probably wouldn’t have chosen it on my own and I’m glad to have done so.

The prime driver holding it back from a higher rating for me was just that it edged too close to horror for my tastes with a few scenes I found disturbing (others might not mind it, but I have a tough time). Also it felt a bit small, not sure the exact word count, but felt like it was a novella.

One question I’ll throw out there: at the end, Ti Jean’s baby’s soul gets replaced with that of Denton. Am I the only one who felt bad for the previous soul that inhabited the baby? Or are we to think that it had none, being an empty vessel intended for Denton all along? Also do we know who Ti Jean’s father actually is? The Jib Jab is her spiritual father, but did he somehow manifest physically to be her actual father too?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Great thoughts, Christopher!

I think you're right, there was a lot of darkness in her books--lots of body horror and torture and stuff.

I think but don't quote me? that it isn't uncommon for Afro-Caribbean people to believe souls recently departed join the bodies of new babies. I've heard folk stories about believing the soul doesn't find its home for a few days after birth which is why you don't name the baby immediately--you're not sure a soul will come to it. That's all tenuous folklore though, so I would welcome any clarification on that!

I don't think we hear anything about Ti-Jeanne's biological father! I got the impression it was sort of a Ti-Jeanne/Tony situation where he wasn't around after conception, but again that's conjecture.

[Paul]

I liked this novel. I cared about the characters from the beginning. Although it was short, I think it was paced very well.

I thought the horror elements worked well in the story and were necessary. That's probably just me being desensitized.

I was also wondering about Denton and the baby at the end. I think Allison's explanation makes sense, because Nola kind of highlights that the baby has no name until after all the events.

[YouKneeK]

I enjoyed this quite a bit. I actually enjoyed the horror aspects since it wasn’t a tedious monster book (zombies, vampires, etc. with characters endlessly running and finding refuge and then running again). I enjoy the spirits, possession, and séance-type stuff more. I gravitated toward books like like that when I was a teen but I haven’t read much of it as an adult, so I enjoyed revisiting some of those themes.

I had the same question as Christopher regarding the impact of Dunston’s soul going into Ti-Jeanne’s baby, but I agree Allison’s explanation makes a lot of sense given how much emphasis there was put on the baby not having a name yet.

I rated this at 3.5 stars and chose to round down on Goodreads. I had a really hard time deciding whether to round up or down. I think I might have rounded up if it hadn’t been for all of Ti-Jeanne’s monotonous mooning over Tony. It was definitely relevant to the story, but I thought there was more of it than necessary to get the point across and I got tired of reading about it. My other main complaint was just that the story felt a little predictable. I would have enjoyed some twists and turns.

Despite my complaints, it was a fast and enjoyable read. I’ll probably try reading something else by the author in the future.

[Kate]

I was intrigued by the world building around the cultures and physical locations of Toronto. Having visited a few times, it added to the impact of some of the scenes. I would not have picked this book out for myself but am grateful someone did. Interesting mythology.

[Ellen]

I enjoyed it. Using it as my ugly cover. I've had this on my to read list for awhile and always thought the cover unattractive

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ha! It's a very strong stylistic choice for sure, Ellen!

John, yes, I love the use of obeah in this book. I thought Hopkinson did a great job making it feel scary and "different" but also perfectly mundane. Why wouldn't you run into a Jab Jab on the way home from your errands? Of course you just need to break a bowl and it will free the souls and Soucoyants within. Natch!

I also agree that for all the horror in this book, and all of the awful things we have to confront, it does feel like the end is pretty chipper, which is nice. I read her book Midnight Robber which I think was in many ways stronger, but also the horror bits were just so tough to read, and she stopped pulling her punches. Oof it was hard to read.

[Oleksandr]

John wrote: "Didn't really feel a true mix of Canada and Jamaica, it just felt like Jamaica in the snow. "

This was my impression as well.

For me the book was interesting mainly in that it is not what I usually read - I don't like horrors and I don't know much about voodoo, only superficial info. I was distracted by Caribbean English - for me it sounded just like 'bad English', which denigrates characters as too simple to 'speak properly'. From Wiki I understand that this is a stable dialect, but it just 'sounds wrong' for me, maybe because as a non-native speaker I learnt rules consciously, unlike the native speakers.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Creole isn't just broken English, it has rules, too! There are some really interesting videos and articles on AAVE (African American Vernacular English), Creole, Acadian/Cajun, and other American dialects out there, if you're interested.

It's a common misconception in the States, too. People think everyone talks like them everywhere you go :) I can imagine it being more difficult if English isn't your native language though. I feel similarly reading other French dialects.

[Oleksandr]

Allison wrote: "Creole isn't just broken English, it has rules, too! "

I noted this I assumed quite explicitly:
Oleksandr wrote: "From Wiki I understand that this is a stable dialect, but it just 'sounds wrong' for me"

Quite often in other novels you have people speaking to each other is their tongue, different from the language of the novel and they are translated into the language of the novel.

I don't say that the author ought to write differently, no way. I only said that is was a bit upsetting for me. It just broke my immersion, like for other people grammar errors do

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Ah gotcha, sorry for misunderstanding.

[Oleksandr]

Allison wrote: "Ah gotcha, sorry for misunderstanding."

Ok, no problem, maybe I wasn't clear enough :)

[Chris]

I liked many aspects of the book - Caribbean culture, Ti-Jeanne and Mami, the portrayal of racism. Yet it really dragged for me. I'm not sure exactly why. I guess it was hard for me to imagine a way forward for Ti-Jeanne. Her success against the antagonist mostly seems to be deus ex machina. Pray and stay on the spirits' good side and you will prevail.

What did people think about Ti-Jeanne and Tony after Tony murdered Mami? I couldn't buy that Ti-Jeanne wouldn't refuse to help him, or at least a major confrontation between them would have to happen first.

[Anna]

OK, let's not make fun of anyone's accent or broken English, please!

I personally love Nalo's creole in all the books I've read by her. It helps with the immersion and I happen to enjoy it. But like I talked about when I read Karen Memory, I do sometime have problems with non-standard English in books, and I do think that in those cases the audiobook is the way to go. It's harder for me to do the accent in my head if it's something I'm not familiar with. But the Caribbean creole is (for me) a perfectly logical combination of French and English, so I enjoy it, especially the rhythm of the language.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Thanks, John! All good!

Chris, I saw that part of the story as part of her very strong desire to put this story to rest somewhat hopefully. It felt less natural, but it was aesthetically pleasing (is that what I mean?)--it brought a balance to the story and said more things about the world and writer than I think a more retributive ending would have gone. I think it's clear that she and Tony are through, but that Ti-Jeanne knows that she doesn't get to say who the spirits value, and that kind of brings it full circle for me.

[Megan]

I really liked this. (Though, like others here, what I disliked the most had to do with the more horror & graphic violence aspects; I'm a lightweight, and I hope this'll be the most frightening book I read this year.)

I think my favorite aspect was the worldbuilding. Loved the mythology, and I wanted to know so much more about this broken Toronto. I was kind of charmed by the way Hopkinson provided the explanation for the dystopia through a series of newspaper headlines that the self-appointed community librarian was featuring in his library. The explanation also hit me hard: an economic and societal collapse where an indigenous tribe's land claim was used as the scapegoat. :////

I can't speak to the Toronto-specifics, but it felt like a realistic multicultural urban community to me, from the mixes of types of medicine/healing (and acknowledging that there were no more imported ingredients, that Gros-Jeanne was learning about native/local ingredients), the roti shop, the characters from diverse backgrounds, the way different buildings got repurposed in this new world. I loved that Ti-Jeanne and her family lived on a former educational farm.

Aaaand I also thought the ending felt so optimistic after all the pain and terror, but I kind of liked that. The premier's "change-of-heart" and plan to try to revitalize the community from within was promising, but I was also left nervous about what happened with the remains of the posse and if any other criminal organizations stepped up. Without Rudy's spirit connections, they probably couldn't wreak as much damage, but it still can't be a good situation. But I liked where Ti-Jeanne was left, and I was feeling more confident about her and Mi-Jeanne and Baby, too.

[Chris]

I would rate this a solid 3.5. I really enjoyed the elements of mixed culture. I found it fun how the characters would switch voice depending on who they were talking to. Pace of the story line was also good for me. A few of the general comments for this book had me thinking it was going to be a rich VS. poor book. (done that cliche enough) Quite pleased that it was only the spark that set off the main events of this book. So I liked the world the author created and the general story was quite enjoyable.
Where I stated to have issues was when there were a few holes in the logic of the story. I really don't like it when I have to start thinking up excuses for why what is going on in the narrative. For example, Ti-J and Rudy are both in the between place and hence not visible to others but when the thugs come back up the elevator they are totally visible. So I now need to make up reasons they are no longer "inbetween" Ok I can do that, but I don't think I should have too. Ti-J knows that the bowl is the key but she shoots Rudy and then just hangs out while he gets better. What? So now I am sort of making up excuses for why she is so lame. There were quite a few of these holes and I don't like having to be making up stuff for them.

I also struggled with Ti-Jeanne's reaction to Tony after he just beat her grandmother to death. They sort of blow it off as a "he didn't have a choice" moment. BS, he totally had a choice. It wasn't a good choice, but if your past has caught up with you, you deal with it, not beat a women too death with a hammer. But they all seem to just more of less let it go. Maybe I am just not that forgiving. I kind of expected he would make good somehow in the final confrontation. Nope, he just gets off. Ok making up stuff again, he takes a bullet saving T-J so she can finish off Rudy, Ok I feel better now.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Haha! Yes, Chris! I had similar thoughts! I like your "headcanon" of Tony taking a bullet. I will co-sign that :-)

[Paul]

Really enjoyed this book. I get the horror bits would put people off. I don't read much horror myself but like a good Stephen King story so this worked for me.

Didn't know anything about carribean magic so this was new and interesting too me.

Agreed that it didn't ring right that Tony could be forgiven. It would perhaps have worked better if he'd died saving ti Jeanne or something similar. But then Mi Jeanne was also forced to do some horrible things and survived, so it is a mirror to that.

Yeah, the Baby sole thing was confusing. I read it as Dunstons sole was put into Baby from the start which is why he hated Tony, and was released at the end allowing Baby's real sole in

[Dawn F]

This book was a complete surprise to me. I’ve recently come across Carribean folklore, mostly through Nnedi Okorafor’s Nigerian-set books and The Black God’s Drums, so I recognized names of deities/spirits and their characteristics. I’m completely fascinated by it which should be no surprise really and I’m heavily into Greek and Norse mythology and folklore in general.

This was the most fleshed out and utilized story of West Indian/Carribean folklore I’ve read yet and I thought the story was captivating and the plot fast driven. I also do like horror, so it was a nice and fitting addition to the story, but I definitely think it should come with a warning for the sensitive and it’s quite graphic at times. I kept thinking it would be excellent as a horror movie.

I’m definitely going to read all of her work now!

[Oleksandr]

Dawn wrote: "I’ve recently come across Carribean folklore, ... I’m completely fascinated by it."

I agree it is fascinating, but I'd like to know more about their deiology, like can gods be killed (yes in Norse and no in Greek mythos), what are their limits, what are their relation with Christianity, etc. In short, I'd like to see more rules

[Bonnie]

I am sorry to say I did not like Brown Girl in the Ring at all. Not even enough to say “It’s OK” and give it two stars... and this from someone who will round up if I’m on the cusp bc what will the Cool Kids think! I think I saw Nalo Hopkinson at a convention some years back, and I certainly expected to enjoy her book.

I myself would categorize this as Horror, not even Fantasy, due to the witchcraft, voo-doo/Obieja, spirits, Tarot cards, monster things with clacking claws, possession, flaying people alive and whatnot.

If you liked it, you might like “Song of Kali” by Dan Simmons? That is what it recalled for me... horror cult with mythical background (Indian gods) in a vividly described city, Calcutta/Kolkata.

I like the idea of the SF aspect of a dystopian Toronto. But it seemed extraneous to the story — the story could have taken place in any poor locale anywhere; didn’t seem like Canada/Toronto connected to the narrative at all. All you’d have to do is start with a different instigating incident: instead of the request to find a heart for transplant, it could be any order from a gang leader to a reluctant gang member (and Tony didn’t seem that reluctant to me... he took the measure of Ma mi’s tissue match potential quick enough, even before he ran away and was captured, didn’t he?).

I found the dialect exhausting to read. I had to force myself to keep reading. There was not one character I liked.

And for all Ti-Jeanne’s lack of interest and training from her grandmother, she did pretty well with the dark spirits in the CNN Tower. Didn’t seem to need all the training. Or were the spirits doing most of the hard lifting?

I don’t even feel like Ti-Jeanne learned much: still mooning after Tony. Hormones apparently dissolve all of her brain power.

I’m glad you told us about the Caribbean soul thing, otherwise I felt like to top it all off, book ended with a character we never knew (the step-grandfather) possessing an innocent baby and renewing a dark cycle of abuse.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

There are certainly a lot of horror elements, though I tend to put witchcraft/invocation of gods in fantasy as that's pretty common trope throughout, I think.

I'm sorry you didn't like it! I do find it interesting how differently we read it though! I really found the Toronto element to be critical to the story--it really adds a level of "otherness" and the feeling of being outside of two cultures for me.

I do agree some things felt a little too "easy" and I attribute most of that to this being Nalo's first book.

Hoping your next book goes better!

[Dawn F]

This was as graphical as The Ritual, so I definitely would also put it under the horror tag, but a book can fall under more than one genre as this one does. I do like horror so I personally didn’t mind it, but I’m sure it’s not for everyone.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Just finished this up, after reading the last 20 or so pages surreptitiously at work. It wasn't that I was so into the book I had to finish it, though. More that I just wanted it to be over so I could move on to my next book...

I agree with Bonnie that I felt that Toronto aspect felt sort of extraneous, and it could've been any fallen city. That aspect didn't really have much of an impact on me - and I kept wondering why it was Toronto at all, and why it wasn't, say, New Orleans - but, then, I guess that would've been cliche, so there's that.

I wasn't overly bothered by the horror aspects. I have a hard time knowing where that line is drawn, tbh. I mean, Game of Thrones has some graphically depicted violence, but it's still considered fantasy/ There's a whole GrimDark subgenre of fantasy, but I suppose GrimDark could be said to straddle the border.

Anyway, for me it comes down mostly to the telling and the level of graphicness. I didn't find the flaying seen overly graphic, personally... at least not in a Clive Barker kind of way.

But, yeah, I'd say it definitely straddles the border, but not as much - for me - as I feared when I read the comments about the horror aspects going in.


The most interesting thing, for me, was the depiction of the belief system. I'm a little bit familiar with Vodoun from reading, and I know the very basics of the loa and being ridden and whatnot, but nothing overly specific.

I was especially glad to see it not depicted as something evil, though, but which had both it's good and bad practices. That, for me, was a highlight of the book. One of the benefits of the story being written from someone of the culture instead of the colonizers...


But, by the end, frankly, I just grew kind of bored. I felt like, for as short as it was, it could've been shorter. Maybe better served as a novella. There just felt like too much repetition, I guess, at parts.

The ending battle felt very Deus ex Machina, and I've yet to decide how I feel about that. I mean, in a story where you are dealing directly with spirits, maybe it makes sense?

But I got so annoyed with Ti-Jeanne almost agreeing to be a duppy until she was stopped. Like, girl, did you learn nothing?

I had to keep reminding myself that she was under the effects of the drug, but I would've much preferred if she'd actually overcome it with her own willpower... which I guess we're meant to think she does, in the end, but only after Papa Legba pulled her ass from the fire.

Anyhoo...

I also agree that the thing with Tony at the end was meh. I did feel that she wasn't still moon-eyed over him, though. She did say didn't feel tied to him anymore, and she was still mad at him, but she might be able to forgive him someday.

But I agree that he did have a choice, and he was gonna kill her, too, because he'd rather kill 2 people, one of whom he professes to love, in order to save his damn self, and that is a choice and I do feel like he got off way too easy with it.


Last thing -

About the transplant. When it looked like Uttley was going to reject the transplant - or the transplant was going to reject her - I was kinda glad, to be honest. She didn't deserve it. Like, she didn't seem to care where it was coming from, and that's a choice, too.

But I think I'm happier with the way it turned out, at that Mami will have influence over her going forward, and hopefully some good will come to the city from it all.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Also, while I did struggle with the dialect at times, especially in the beginning, I really appreciated the representation of code switching between the types of speech.

[Valerie]

I loved this book. Unlike most, I did not see it as horror at all. Dark fantasy? Absolutely. But I don't consider urban fantasy featuring witches as horror, either.

I loved the exposure to magic and fantasy of Caribbean roots. It felt fresh and exciting. I also thought the patois enhanced the story.

Also, for such a short book, it packed a powerful punch. The world building was fantastic. The characters were complex.

I am a total fangirl, now.

[Shomeret]

I read this when it was first published because it was recommended by someone I trust. It's the only book by Nalo Hopkinson that I've read all the way through, and I hated it. It disturbs me when African diasporic religion is presented as horrific. We get enough of that in bad movies. That's my perspective on it.

I've been attracted to the subject matter of Nalo Hopkinson's books since then, tried to read them and continued to find them too dark for my taste.

[Oleksandr]

Shomeret wrote: "It disturbs me when African diasporic religion is presented as horrific. "

I understand why it can be disturbing but in the novel I don't think that it is presented in negative light - after all the protagonist is a practitioner

[Kaia]

I read this for the August 2023 group re-reads, and I flew through it in a few days. I guess I'm in in the minority in this discussion, but I loved this book. I loved the incorporation of Caribbean beliefs (which were mostly new to me), the dystopian Toronto setting, and the characters (who irritated me with their choices at times, but those choices still felt realistic). The dialect took me a bit to get used to, but it didn't detract from the story for me. (I normally choose audiobooks for stories with a lot of dialect or names I'm unfamiliar with, but I didn't this time.)

The horrible parts were really horrible, but I thought they fit with the story. Even without a magic system, I could believe a person like Rudy running that type of organization would be ruthless and cruel in dealing with subordinates and people he saw as foes or competitors since he was ruling through fear.

It didn't bother me that the gods stepped in to help Ti-Jeanne at the end either. I felt like there was a closer relationship between people and their deities in this belief system, and with Rudy's power enhanced through magic, it took more than just human strength to defeat him.

Allison's explanation earlier about recently departed souls joining a new body / baby made sense to me, too. I felt like Baby had always had part of Dunston's soul in him, and just wasn't truly complete until the duppy bowl was destroyed - after which the book says, "Dunston's soul and his new body finally were truly one."

I do agree that the end seemed a bit on the rosy side, especially with Ti-Jeanne's treatment of Tony, but I didn't mind. There was enough that was difficult and horrible in the story that having a kinder ending was nice.

All in all, I'm really glad that I was finally nudged into reading this book, which had been on my to-read list for a long time. I'm curious to read other books by Hopkinson now.

[CBRetriever]

the ending was a bit pat though with Uttley's change (with Gros-Jeanne's heart in her).

[a.g.e. montagner]

I've finished it a few days ago, and I'm here to unpack it. At some length. I'll try to engage with what other members have written so far, even though they might not read my rejoinders; some seem to have left Goodreads... for good.

I'm happy to have read it.
I needed something short and quick to break my current habit of re-reading sections of a book even before I finish it... Which is also a double-edged commentary on Brown Girl in the Ring: it's a fast-paced jaunt that I'm not encouraged to retread.
More to the point, Hopkinson is on my long-neglected afrofuturist list, and this is a good opportunity to discuss her debut novel. Jumping to conclusions, I'll admit I was partly disappointed by it, and I will elaborate in a moment; any insight into the rest of her production is valued.

One thing this novel did was blur boundaries: I find tags very useful in sorting my shelf, and I don't remember ever reshuffling them so often for any other book. Afrojujuism seems to fit best, with a focus on the supernatural and African diasporic folklore rather than on genre boundaries.

The premise of urban collapse was interesting. As I mentioned in the other topic, it reminded me of a less extreme In the Country of Last Things: a city closed off and left to spiralling social decay. Hopkinson is making a point on her adopted city, and the portayal of wealth inequality is even more poignant today than it was 25 years ago. It is also, of course, an opportunity to imagine an Afro-Caribbean ucronia (well, dystopia, with Rudolph Sheldon around) in the heart of Toronto. The wealthy, powerful and privileged have literally opted out, and the novel is concerned with those who are left: the Black, poor, disabled, orphans, and an intersectional jumble of the above.

Laying the blame on the Indigenous tribe land claim at the beginning felt uneasy; my takeaway is that capitalism makes the wrong things happen for the right reasons. On this regard, at least one review argues that both the political and the religious dimensions of the novel are underdeveloped. I agree that I would love to read more on both... but maybe not in this book. Too many speculative novels are burdened by awkward worldbuilding, and to Hopkinson's credit she streamlined this tale around a core group of characters (it is, at heart, a family saga) and kept the context to the essentials. Besides, what there is of it occasionally feels like too much already. Characters in particular seem stocky, especially at the beginning: the baby chortles, Gros-Jeanne kisses her teeth and Ti-Jeanne oscillates between loosing all sense over Tony and being afraid of basically everything. Rudy is so evil that he comes off as cartoonish: his action were for me the real horror of the story, more than the gore (which was so over the top that it never registered as realistic). I realise that all of this is set up to give the novel an arc, and the end does feel satisfying, but my impression is that my issues with the novel eventually boil down to the fact that it works too much, for my taste, like a fairy-tale, with shoehorned changes in the status quo.

Shomeret wrote: "It disturbs me when African diasporic religion is presented as horrific".

I don't think that's the case. The novel goes to great lengths to make a point that you can use the power of the spirits either to heal and bring harmony or, well, to turn your own daughter's soul into a bloodthirsty fireball. Incidentally the grandparents' "lost generation" is given a literal second life at the end of the novel, either through... reincarnation or transplant.

There are more topics I'd like to discuss, especially the Creole (as a linguist), vodun/vodù/vudù/voodoo and some of the plot points, but I'll post this much for now.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

very in depth! great thoughts. I'm on my phone now, but am letting you know I've seen the comments and intend to respond later

[a.g.e. montagner]

Did we know a prequel film was released in 2017?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_G...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "I've finished it a few days ago, and I'm here to unpack it. At some length. I'll try to engage with what other members have written so far, even though they might not read my rejoinders; some seem ..."

Okay, sorry for the delay, I've been under the weather and thoughts have been hard to come by. But here I go, trying to rally some!

I really liked that we imagined urban collapse in what is seen as a very safe, very protected city from many North American perspectives. It seems to indicate that the author knows that the status as "civilized" and "cultured" and all of that stuff is always temporary, and is seeking to make us a bit uncomfortable at the realities of that cycle.

I don't particularly recall the part about the land grab, though given her other works I have to think it's more a nod in solidarity than a shrug and a toast to the dead. I do think this is under explored, but I also think that, as her first book, she was trying to appeal to what publishers see as the masses--which is to say white colonizers in North America and the UK. I read Midnight Robber first, and then this, so I offer much grace to her based on what her very blatant thoughts are later. Either she was radicalized between this book and that one, or she was being very cautious here. I'm inclined to lean towards the latter.

I agree that I think the conclusion was a bit pat, but here, again, given my introduction to her thoughts in a much darker book, I wonder...is it pat? Or is it actually a very intentional happily ever never? I think this could have been done with sharper lines, but I do keep chewing on this. Are we meant to be happy they've come to some arrangement? Or are we meant to think huh...she is way too good for him and too powerful and yet here's a cycle that's harder than vodoun to break?

I do agree that the evil here is too cartoonish. I heartily encourage you to read Midnight Robber where the evil is...way, WAY too close to home! I want to read Sister Mine, too, very badly. I think it will savage my heart.