The Picture of Dorian Gray: Week 2, Chapters 4 - 6

[Kerstin, Moderator]

Chaper 4
Dorian meets Lady Victoria, Henry’s wife. Victoria and Henry don’t have what we would call a conventional marriage. Each do as they please, and only show up at certain functions together. Dorian proceeds to tell him he is in love with an actress of a third-rate theater. Henry thinks him overly dramatic. Such infatuations are only dalliances, and tells Dorian there will be more paramours. Once by himself, Henry ponders the day’s events. He doesn’t look at Dorian, or any other person for that matter, as true people. To him they are nothing but past times, specimens to study. Then a telegram from Dorian arrives announcing his engagement.

Chaper 5
The young actress in question, 17-year-old Sibyl Vane, is enraptured with the romanticism of her engagement, it doesn't even bother her she doesn’t know Dorian’s name. Her mother, a prematurely aged actress herself, is less than enthused. The younger brother, sick of the theater life, is ready to ship to Australia for a new start. He seems to be the only one walking on solid ground. The two women are so caught up in the life of the theater that role playing is more real to them than actual life.

Chaper 6
Basil is shocked to find out Dorian is engaged. The three, Henry, Basil, and Dorian, are meeting for dinner. The final goal being, to leave for Sibyl’s theater afterwards to see what all the fuss is about. An interesting dynamic happens once they do. Henry and Dorian leave in a two-seater carriage, while Brian follows in a hired one.

These, of course, are only the rough outlines of what is happening in these chapters. What were your reactions to this week’s segment?

[Bruce]

With the Vanes, I noticed not just that children’s lives back then were controlled and determined by their parents and those around their parents who they had arrangements with, but also that siblings were closer and more physically affectionate than they are today. James loved Sybil and was protective of her, but to modern readers, the scene in the park where they’re physically affectionate can seem incestuous. I personally don’t think it is, but teen brothers and sisters nowadays mostly have their own lives. Today, it would be more like the friendship two non related high school girls have than a brother and sister. I could be too American-centric on this because I’m in the US.

[Jenny]

We have read about 1/3 of the book and I feel that other than the way Gray physically looks, I know very little about him or his thoughts. The narration is pretty clear in describing the thoughts and motivations of Henry, Basel and even Sibyl and her brother, but very little, so far, is observed about Dorian. It's like he doesn't exist unless he's with one of these supporting characters.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

Bruce wrote: "With the Vanes, I noticed not just that children’s lives back then were controlled and determined by their parents and those around their parents who they had arrangements with, but also that sibli..."

Our culture today is so hyper-sexualized that public displays of affection have receded into the private sphere. The genuine public display of affection between friends has pretty much disappeared. This is especially true for men, women still have more wiggle room here. Three/four generations ago when men showed affection in public nobody thought this was homoerotic because it hardly ever was.

Now coming back to Wilde, the fact that we have three male friends here at the end of the 19th century, that in and of itself is rather unremarkable. Men of the upper class frequented their clubs, shared friendships, and their dalliances were mostly of a heterosexual nature. Then, and this is strictly my own observation, I find the bulk of English upper class men rather effeminate to begin with, which blurs the lines.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

Jenny wrote: "We have read about 1/3 of the book and I feel that other than the way Gray physically looks, I know very little about him or his thoughts. The narration is pretty clear in describing the thoughts a..."

Jenny, that's a really astute observation. Let's see how this develops, I am rather curious.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

Lucia wrote: " I am reading "Lady Audley's Secret" and noticed some similarities in relation to the way Dorian's and Lady Audley's characters are presented to the reader."

Ha! I never would have thought to put these two together. They both have a certain charm, or so it is claimed?

[Kerstin, Moderator]

In Chapter 4 Henry says to Dorian, " You will always be loved, and you will always be in love with love."

Is he saying Dorian is not capable of loving others?

Later Henry continues, "When one is in love, one always begins by deceiving one's self, and one always ends by deceiving others. That is what the world calls romance."

Here we have another "Henryism." Under what circumstances would he be right?

[Jenny]

Lucia,
I read Lady Audley years ago with a different Goodreads Group. I will have to pull it out again.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

Jenny wrote: "Lucia,
I read Lady Audley years ago with a different Goodreads Group. I will have to pull it out again."

We read it in 2016

[Brittany (Lady Red)]

I’m very interested in this theory, and I’m also seeing similarities.

[Brittany (Lady Red)]

Certainly the superficial blonde prettiness is a theme, covering a much darker soul.

[JJ]

I feel like chapter 4 changed drastically in the middle of it. It started off with Henry's wife saying how many "pictures" of Dorian that her husband had. Henry was even talking about his fondness of Dorian when all of a sudden Dorian is like "I'm madly in love with an actress" and then the last sentence of the chapter is that He's getting married. It seems like this is where Oscar Wilde must have heavily revised. I could be wrong, but this chapter just feels so abrupt and choppy. I don't like Henry, he was so sexist in this weeks reading. In addition, I don't like the actress Miss Vane at all. You can definitely tell that a man wrote her personality/character. Her only existence in the book is because of Dorian. There is no substance to her (so far).
Wilde can certainly come up with good lyrical lines, which shows that he is a poet. However, he is not a novelist. Personally, I don't really like this book or Wilde's writing of this novel.

[Bruce]

I agree about Sybil. As much as it’s one of my favorite novels, I was disappointed how there’s little substance to Sybil and Mrs Vane, and instead the brother has all the substance. I think the one thing Sybil does evoke is sympathy, at least. The reader feels for her in the book. I do think Wilde wrote better female characters in other works. An Ideal Husband has decent characters, although Miss Cheveley, the antagonist of the book, was a scheming and conniving character. I think Wilde was both misogynistic, but also hated powerful, rich, and brutal males of the time, which I suppose is better than most misogynists.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

How would you have liked Sibyl to be fleshed out more?

[JJ]

Like I mentioned before he only existence is because of Dorian. We are even introduced to her character through Dorian himself. ( I think it would have been better to introduce her through someone else.) She is immature and sounds like a child, we are not told of her age. She must be a teenager because Dorian is in his twenties if I'm not mistaken. Whenever Wilde writes of her acting it's as if she is only doing it for Dorian. Wilde could have focused on her talent in acting rather than just mention that she was gifted in acting. Why is she gifted at acting? What thoughts go through her head when she is acting? How does the audience respond or feel when they see her act? What are her feelings of being an actress? What does she like and dislike about being an actress? We don't know any of that. Although, to be far we don't know much about Dorian's aspirations either.

In addition Sybil seems to have no cares in the world. Even when her brother was leaving she was mostly concerned with him finding money in Australia and Dorian was on her brain. Her brother was concerned about leaving her because he thinks that she is incapable of looking after herself and that his mother is incapable of taking care of her. Sybil is just shallow and is treated as an object by those around her. Wilde has so far only written weak and flimsy women in this book.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

No, women are not portrayed very favorably. What kind of story is Wilde telling us? Into what kind of world is he dipping us into? This quote from the second chapter is, I think, illuminating:

"A new Hedonism—that is what our century wants. You [Dorian] might be its visible symbol. With your personality there is nothing you could not do. The world belongs to you for a season. . . ."

Here we have the two main players, Dorian and Henry, and Henry is sucking Dorian into a world of upper class male dissipation, to use the old-fashioned word for it. When we read Henry carefully, does he care about anybody other than himself? Even Dorian isn't a person he really cares about but an object to be observed, somebody he has chosen to be part of his inner circle to amuse himself.

In hedonism, is anything of importance other than the next pleasure to be indulged in? What gets in the way of these pleasures? And what about women in this context, what is their role? If they don't serve as objects of pleasure, they are dismissed as boring.

I don't think Wilde had a choice but to portray women in this unfavorable light if he wanted to be truthful the the setting. To me this goes even further than just women. Henry and his friends, and this ties in with the hedonism they exemplify, are perfect examples of upper class elitism. To them everyone outside their chosen circle is beneath them.

[Renee, Moderator]

I agree that Henry has no real affection for Dorian. His motivations seem to range from petulant to downright evil.

I think he gets a perverse enjoyment from taking Dorian away from Basil (perhaps why Basil did not want them to meet in the first chapter) and the distribution of conveyances is just more of that. (Also, it gives him the opportunity to further minimize any influence Basil might continue to have.)

I can’t decide if Henry has brought Dorian into dissipated society to watch its effect on his innocence and beauty. To watch society as it slavers over him. Or because he sees something dark beneath the innocence. Something even Dorian does not know about himself.

[Brittany (Lady Red)]

I’m honestly thinking all three, myself.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

At this stage all of these things are in play. Dorian has free will. He chooses which path is he going to follow. We see glimpses of conscience when he realizes he has treated Sibyl poorly. But once he has worked through the emotions by writing the letter, he goes back to where he was. It doesn't prompt him to change course.

Renee I think you are right, maybe Henry is just uncovering tendencies within Dorian that were already there, and gives Dorian permission, so to speak, to act on them.

[Suki]

Renee wrote: "I agree that Henry has no real affection for Dorian. His motivations seem to range from petulant to downright evil.

I think he gets a perverse enjoyment from taking Dorian away from Basil (perhap..."

Henry has certainly succeeded in bringing out Dorian's sociopathic tendencies. It is interesting that, later in the book, (view spoiler)[ Dorian seems to delight in leading others astray just like Henry did to him, although it is never clear to me if Henry is just twisting Dorian with words, or if he takes Dorian out and introduces him to some of his darker habits and perversions. (hide spoiler)]. I had wondered at Henry's motives regarding Dorian, and I think that a lot of it was an ego boost at having such a pretty young thing looking up to him and doing his bidding. I also think that Basil inadvertently set the ball rolling when he refused to tell Henry Dorian's name and said that he didn't want Henry and Dorian to meet because Henry would be a bad influence on him. Henry took this as a challenge, and things didn't turn out at all well for Dorian. Do you think Dorian would have been a better person for never having met Henry, or would these perverted tendencies have come out in him anyway?

[Jackie]

Suki wrote: "Do you think Dorian would have been a better person for never having met Henry, or would these perverted tendencies have come out in him anyway?"

Ah! I thought of this myself! Dorian is so easily influenced by Henry. Yet without his influence would he have turned out the same? This is hard to say. I think because Dorian met Henry and is so influenced by him, he would not have turned into such a devious person... Although, he seems easily gravitated to these notions and thoughts whereas others would turn them away. It's an interesting concept to think about.

Also, I agree with JJ that the chapters seemed somewhat sudden with the falling in love between Dorian and Sybil---Wilde may have written various revisions in the process. However, it makes sense of how almost "all or nothing" Dorian is! How easily influenced he is by others and the approval of others in the beginning of the novel...

[Renee, Moderator]

Wow, that’s a really good question! Hmm. Perhaps without Henry, Dorian might have remained undeveloped or, rather, underdeveloped. He’s such a child when we first meet him. And he seems fairly content to be so. Content to be admired. Content to enjoy pleasant things. I keep thinking of that character in Blake’s Songs of Innocence who remains in the garden and chooses to remain forever immature, forever limited by inexperience. But then I have to wonder... Is immaturity equal to innocence?

On the other hand, we have just enough background on Dorian to know that he has an emotionally dicey heritage. So maybe something darker was bound to come out eventuality.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

For Dorian to turn on a dime and follow Henry suggests to me that his inner moral compass is underdeveloped. His conscience does prick him a little when he thinks of how he treated Sibyl, but once the emotion is spent, he returns to "normal." This "prick" isn't enough to will a change course. All Henry has to do is to simply divert him, give him license, and he happily follows.

[Piyangie, Moderator]

Dorian is not innocent. There is a dark side in him that was yet to come out. When Henry meet him for the first time at Basil's home, he sees it through and realizes that Dorian's present childish manner is only due to his immaturity. Henry only shows him the way but it is Dorian's lack of morality that plunges him in to the dark and wicked path.

[Kerstin, Moderator]

I totally agree. Dorian is not innocent. This is what I meant when I said Dorian has free will in msg. 23. It is an act of the will to follow Henry. Nobody is forcing him no matter how persuasive Henry is.