Reading the Church Fathers discussion
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Recommendations For Our First Read of 2019
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I have never read City of God by St. Augustine. I am new to the group and you all may have read it. I recently finished Confessions (the Sarah Ruden translation) and it was excellent. It is the first bit of Augustine I have read outside of a handful of quotes.In any case, I would love to read City of God, have a copy of it on my shelves, and know that it is considered one of his most magnificent works!
I was just going to suggest exactly that! It fits the description of a classic quite well, since I want to have read it, but its length daunts me.I was planning this year to listen to audio course by the great courses first, because their course about the confessions was also such a help to me.
Now here is a Sunday afternoon's interlude, 1100 pages, we'll get that in before dinner ;)Seriously, if we choose City of God, I'd suggest we break it up into manageable segments with breathers in-between. Otherwise I fear it becomes too much of a marathon for moderator and reader alike. And in the same vein, Nemo could ask for volunteers to guest moderate some segments, so he isn't always on-call either.
I do want to read it, though right now I don't have time for it. I would join you at a later date.
From this list here: http://www.ccel.org/index/subject/cla...I am also interested in the book 'Life of Our Most Holy Father St. Benedict' http://www.ccel.org/ccel/gregory/life...
I am interested in knowing more about this rule, and the description of Benedicts life seems also interesting, especially when it is written by Gregory, (this is the same Gregory who wrote moralia in Job, I think?)
Although I have to say the first page is not really encouraging:
THERE was a man of venerable life, Benedict by name and grace, who from the time of his very childhood carried the heart of an old man. His demeanour indeed surpassing his age, he gave himself no disport or pleasure, but living here upon earth he despised the world with all the glory thereof, at such time as he might have most freely enjoyed it.
Then I'd think Chesterton's Orthodoxy is interesting, but of course no old church father.
Caylon wrote: "I have never read City of God by St. Augustine. I am new to the group and you all may have read it. I recently finished Confessions (the Sarah Ruden translation) and it was excellent. It is the fir..."Welcome to the group, Caylon!
I read City of God immediately after Confessions, to begin the year of 2010. After I had finished them, I remember wishing that the books I read for the rest of the year would be as excellent as those two.
Ruth wrote: "I was just going to suggest exactly that! It fits the description of a classic quite well, since I want to have read it, but its length daunts me...":) I know how that is, though, come to think of it, wouldn't we want a good book to be long, so we can read and enjoy it as long as possible?
Kerstin wrote: "Now here is a Sunday afternoon's interlude, 1100 pages, we'll get that in before dinner ;)Seriously, if we choose City of God, I'd suggest we break it up into manageable segments with breathers i..."
The Penguin paperback edition on my shelf is 1100 pages. I suspect it would be twice that long, if sufficient notes and indexes were included.
What I'm concerned about, is not the length of the book, but how to help the group benefit the most from reading it. I don't think I'm qualified to lead the discussion of a book of this stature.
Nemo wrote: "The Penguin paperback edition on my shelf is 1100 pages. I suspect it would be twice that long, if sufficient notes and indexes were included.That's what I was thinking!
When I read the Confessions I chose the Ignatius Press Critical Edition, and the footnotes were fantastic. Unfortunately they only have a handful of these annotated classics. Penguin is hit or miss. All too often the footnotes are colored by modern-day ideas rather than explaining the historical context and meaning. I've been known to throw such books through the room ;)
What I'm concerned about, is not the length of the book, but how to help the group benefit the most from reading it. I don't think I'm qualified to lead the discussion of a book of this stature. "
There is that. The inquiring mind has so many follow-up questions that could only be answered in part or left hanging.
Some more suggestions:Lacantius: The Divine Institutes
Athanasius: The Incarnation of the Word
Augustine: Of True Religion
Benedict: The Rule of Benedict
Kerstin said, "I've been known to throw such books through the room ;) "I'm reminded of a book review by Dorothy Parker: "This is not a book to be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force."
Clark wrote: "Kerstin said, "I've been known to throw such books through the room ;) "I'm reminded of a book review by Dorothy Parker: "This is not a book to be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with grea..."
LOL!
“With great force“.... Preferably intellectual or spiritual force, not physical force. But great force, nevertheless.
I’m also thinking about doing a series of group reads that are centrered on one topic. For example, the Doctrine of the Trinity seems to be especially important to our time. I would like to read all the early Church Fathers’ writings on the subject in some depth.What topics do you find fascinating?
Nemo wrote: "I’m also thinking about doing a series of group reads that are centrered on one topic. For example, the Doctrine of the Trinity seems to be especially important to our time. I would like to read al..."Great idea!
I would imagine there is a lot on the subject of the Trinity because of the Arian heresy in the 4th century, which has never left us...
Baptism might be another. I would really have to look what the different topics are and which ones pop of more frequently.
Yes, topics seem like a good idea. I am currently reading Augustine's The Trinity. Certainly I am interested more in how the ideas developed over time. Gregory of Nyssa also wrote about the Trinity, didn't he? I thought he was one of the first to spell out a more precise doctrine.Then, I have some very basic questions about why Jesus died. How does that help us in any way. I have heard all the explanations so often, but only get more and more questions on the topic. I think it would be refreshing to read what the church fathers said, because they were not yet hindered by so much history, and were making fresh discoveries, and explaining to people who were utterly new to faith.
This is perhaps also related to baptism and the other sacraments.
Augustine said something on this topic also in 'The Trinity' in book XIII. He explains about justice and mentions that it is just that we are delivered from the bonds with which the devil justly kept us, because the devil had no right to kill an innocent man.
Somewhat related but also a fascinating topic would be the incarnation.
I'm new to this group, and new to the church fathers altogether. Can anyone recommend something to get me started? (I know none of it will be as easy as Dr. Seuss, but hopefully something not too overwhelming like City of God lol)
Oh, to be clear, I meant something for me to look at on my own time. I wasn't demanding y'all cater to my inexperience in the group read.
Amber wrote: "I'm new to this group, and new to the church fathers altogether. Can anyone recommend something to get me started? ..."Welcome to the group, Amber! Your profile picture tells me that you're a fan of LOTR. :) Do you know which Church Fathers Tolkien read the most? That might be a good place for you to start...
I've become hesitant to recommend books to people. You need to know not only the book, but also the person, and whether s/he would benefit from what you recommend. "People do not read stupidities with impunity".
Having said that, I would venture to recommend Augustine's Confessions to anyone new to the Church Fathers. It's considered one of the great classics of the Western World, not only Christianity. I've enjoyed it immensely, and never met anyone who regrets reading it.
Ruth wrote: "Then, I have some very basic questions about why Jesus died. How does that help us in any way. ..."That's another topic I'd like to read in the Church Fathers. It is also one of the controversial issues today, I think.
"I think it would be refreshing to read what the church fathers said, because they were not yet hindered by so much history, and were making fresh discoveries, and explaining to people who were utterly new to faith."
I'm not sure what you mean by "hindered by so much history"...
The early Church Fathers were not Jews, unlike the earliest disciples, so they were indeed making fresh discoveries even for themselves. They had to dig deep, so to speak, and defend the faith against naysayers and persecutors. I think their own faith was strengthened in the process. In that sense, each believer is like a Church Father, a pioneer, of his faith.
Yes, I love Tolkien! I'm actually not familiar with the church fathers he read, but I'll look into it. I totally understand the hesitation to recommend things. Confessions does seem like a good place to start. I've been wanting to read it for a while. Thanks!
Nemo wrote: "I'm not sure what you mean by "hindered by so much history"How to put that... I think the words have become so much part of our culture that we sometimes use them without realizing what they mean. We can say: "Jesus died for our sins" without blinking an eye.
Also, every possible opinion is now already boxed with a name. If you think this, you're an Arminian, if you think that, Pelagian, or gnostic, or whatever. No fresh landscape for discoveries, just lots of signs 'forbidden to enter this heresy'.
Or perhaps you could see them (the heretics) as shipwrecks, warning us where the dangerous spots are. Maybe that's a better view of things. In that case, we can now journey the field more safely than the Church Fathers, thanks to their writings.
In City of God, Augustine expounds the doctrine of Original Sin, which is related to the question why Jesus died, and many other doctrines of orthodox Christianity.Augustine is such a great writer that his books, written more than 1600 years ago, are actually more accessible, and more coherent, than modern commentaries on him.
Let's read City of God together for our first group read of 2019. It will be time well spent, I think.
I follow the conversations but I’m not a frequent responder to this group. I read City of God 20 years ago alone prior to attending seminary. I’d love the opportunity to re-read it in community. Will we take turns moderating or Nemo, are you rolling up your sleeves and taking on the whole task? I have the Penguin 1987 edition which is the Bettenson translation from 1972. Will it be better to all read a common text or will we use citations when commenting?
John Angerer wrote: "Will we take turns moderating or Nemo, are you rolling up your sleeves and taking on the whole task? "Quite frankly, it would not be good for members of this group if I moderate the discussion of City of God alone.
One of the best ways to get the most out of a book is to teach it yourself, or lead a discussion, because it forces you to dedicate time to the book, really delve into it and think it through. So my hope is that members would volunteer to lead the discussion of a book (there are 22 books in City of God), or if you can't manage a book, even a few chapters is good, and then we can each contribute what we've learned to the group discussion. It is like a pot-luck, crowd-sourcing at its best.
Will it be better to all read a common text or will we use citations when commenting?
Let's use the NPNF text @ CCEL as our common text for reference, but members are welcome to choose their own editions and use citations when commenting.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf1...
I look forward to it! I think I could try to lead the discussion of a book, you are right that that is probably the best way to learn. Only I have no experience in these things. Don't know exactly what is expected. I will buy the translation by new city press, because I read 'The confessions' and 'The Trinity' also by that publisher, and I think they both had such helpful notes and introductions.
https://www.newcitypress.com/the-city...
What do you think about a 12-week reading schedule? It's about 14 pages/day of the Penguin paperback edition, or about 7 pages/day of the NPNF hardcover edition. We'll take a one-day or two-day break after finishing each Part. There are 5 Parts in total. Can we do this?
I think that is too fast. There will then be no time to stop and think. Or to discuss a particularly interesting section.I have an other suggestion which may seem shockingly slow to you :
Let's read one book per month. Then the total will take us nearly two years.
In the first three weeks of a month we can all just share interesting quotes or thoughts we have related to the book, and then in the last week the moderator can lead a more coordinated discussion about what came up most, or what wasn't mentioned at all, or some background,...
I'm also thinking that all this organizing and planning a reading schedule is only worth the effort if at least a bunch of people plan to join, say 8 or so. Otherwise I'm planning to read it anyway, and could just post my thoughts and see if anyone cares to join a conversation.
Getting a robust discussion together is hard with our current numbers. And you never know how many follow without ever saying a peep :)Whatever you all decide is best. I won't be able to join right away as I stated before, so it wouldn't be fair if I joined in the administrative input.
I’d agree with Ruth. The thought of reading City if God in 14 weeks tires me out already! I can’t speak for anyone else, but work, kids, family, and other books I read for business and pleasure kind of rules out plowing through City of God that quickly. It’s mostly the last one - I’m not interested in reading ONLY early church stuff which is what I’d have to do to read it that quickly. But I can integrate reading it on a slower pace, like one book a month.Please don’t schedule around me though. If everyone else is reading that quickly then rock on.
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I wasn't sure about the schedule either, and that's why I brought it up for discussion. The main purpose of a reading schedule is to provide a venue for bookish people to participate in a communal experience, like going to a concert or sports event. So I'll try my best to set a schedule that everyone in the community can follow. Even if only two or three people participate, it would be worthwhile, as it is written, "when two or three are gathered in my name ... ".
I read the City of God in a month or two in 2010, and it made me a fan of Augustine, but I probably didn't get as much out of the book as I could have. So I would agree to a (much) slower reading schedule, but I think a two-year reading plan is too slow for two reasons:
Firstly, every good book has some sort of internal structure, like an architect's blueprint, we need to keep it in our mind's eye when we read the book, to have an idea how everything fit together. If we drag on the reading for too long, we would lose sight of the overarching structure, and things would become fragmentary.
Second, I have a relatively short memory. If I finish a book in two years or more, I would not remember what I read in the first year, so again the book would fall into pieces for me.
How about reading City of God in one year? (It is about 2 books a month, or 3 paperback pages a day.)
I'm game for City of God, but with my current work and school schedule, I may not be able to contribute to the discussion.
Nemo wrote: "How about reading City of God in one year? (It is about 2 books a month, or 3 paperback pages a day.) "Despite what I said above ;) ... I think this would work. For one, the dynamic here in this group is a little different. Our reading material is rather esoteric compared to the popular groups, so I don't think we would lose momentum having a long-term read like this. Then the discussion threads are always open, so one can contribute however the personal schedule allows. And, we still move forward at a steady pace.
Reading City of God in 1 Year seems achievable and allows for time to think and comment. I will try to post and respond once a week (or more).
Agreed as well. Indeed two years is a bit over the top ;-)I do look forward to be reading and sharing together.
OK, I created a new discussion folder for City of God, and posted the reading schedule.https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...
Now we need volunteers to lead the book discussions.
We'll read only Book 1 in January. I'll get the discussion started, and give people enough time to prepare. Then we'll read two books each month till November, and finish the last book in December, before the Holidays.
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Are there any Christian classics that you want to have read, but never have? Would you like to share a book you’ve read or written on the Church Fathers with this group? Now is the opportunity to recommend it for our first group read of 2019.
Keep in mind that this group focuses on Church Fathers in the first seven centuries. We will consider other recommendations, however, if it generates enough interests/votes.