The Toll-gate Group Read January 2019 Chapters 1-9

[Critterbee❇]

Karlyne wrote: "Maith wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was thinking this morning about the use of language and how it tells one's social status. And, mostly, how we don't want to admit that it does (because we're not sup..."

I think that the school you go to and friends you have also influence your speech, as well as your job.

[QNPoohBear]

I do think Elizabeth and her mother knew why the invitation was extended at that particular time.

Nell's old nuse Rose has come to check out Jack as well. Nell is spunky and thinks she can look after herself. I think it's sweet how the servants care so much about her. Nell's cousin Henry is less intelligent and capable than she is. Oh how horrid that girls can't inherit! Nell would make a much better Squire than Henry. His choice of friends leaves a lot to be desired.

[Teresa]

I agree entirely.

[Critterbee❇]

QNPoohBear wrote: "...Nell's old nuse Rose has come to check out Jack as well. Nell is spunky and thinks she can look after herself. I think it's sweet how the servants care so much about her. Nell's cousin Henry is less intelligent and capable than she is. Oh how horrid that girls can't inherit! Nell would make a much better Squire than Henry. His choice of friends leaves a lot to be desired."

So true! Everyone who knows Nell realizes that she is very capable.

[Elza]

I do like this story, and I love Jack and Nell. I've always been suspicious, however, of the "leveller" scenario in which Jack and Nell take one look at each other and know, he/she is The One.
But here's what I've thought about on this read: When they have their first conversation, brief as it is, they find out some key truths about each other.

Nell learns that Jack chooses to delay visiting a friend to stay in uncomfortable housing and work at a menial job -- not just to have an adventure and satisfy his curiosity, but to protect and watch over a young boy who is terrified of being sent to the mines, or the workhouse. I don't wonder any more that Nell felt she could trust Jack on such short acquaintance.

And Jack learns that Nell devotes herself to her beloved grandfather, honoring him and preserving his dignity, even while she carries on as the acting "Squire." Jack knows that she is doing the heavy lifting at Kellands, without complaining or asking for help. His initial reaction is surely confirmed.

They don't know everything about each other, but they know some very important things and they know they can trust each other. It makes the "love at first sight" seem a lot more believable to me.

[Susan in NC]

Elza wrote: "I do like this story, and I love Jack and Nell. I've always been suspicious, however, of the "leveller" scenario in which Jack and Nell take one look at each other and know, he/she is The One.
But..."

So true, great points.

[Critterbee❇]

Elza wrote: "I do like this story, and I love Jack and Nell. I've always been suspicious, however, of the "leveller" scenario in which Jack and Nell take one look at each other and know, he/she is The One.
But..."

I love your breakdown of their 'instalove,' Elza. Attraction is instant, and sparks interest in getting to know each other, and then develops into something more.

It may seem like they only knew each other a short time, but a lot of it was one-on-one, when you can really get to know someone. At that time, how well did you really get to know your future spouse, anyway? A few dances, maybe a house party if you're lucky...

[Elza]

And Jack, at least, learns a lot about Nell from her faithful retainers who come to check him out.

Remember in Pride and Prejudice, when Elizabeth's opinion of Darcy really begins to change? It's when she hears nothing but praise for him from his longtime housekeeper. The word of someone who has known him -- and worked for him -- all his life carries a great deal of weight. You know that what Jack hears of Nell from Joseph and from Rose has the same effect.

[Abigail]

Great points, Elza!

[Amy]

I'm starting next week ...

This will only be my second (!) read. I should say listen since I'll be doing the audiobook again. I'm looking forward to it again.

I was wondering if this was the book where I could totally skip the first chapter and it sounds like it is!

[Amy]

Elza - I appreciate your comments. That helps me get over my initial turn off of the Insta Love scenario. Great insight.

[Karlyne]

Great insights, Elza! I'm guessing we've all met people who on first meeting are instantly friends or instantly I-don't-think-so types. And, it's very often that we get those instant attractions and repellences because of the way we see them treat others, especially those who wait on them, those who are dependent: restaurant staff, cashiers, lawn care people, children, etc. I know that I have been pretty much irrevocably turned off by the way people treat those who are "inferior" to them.

[QNPoohBear]

Good points Eliza! Heyer writes in such a way that we fully believe in her characters and believe in love despite the short amount of time they know each other. You're right in that most marriages of the ton were hardly better than arranged marriages.

Chapter 7 the mysterious Mr. Chirk finally shows up. He has a bad temper but oh my gosh I cannot help liking him. The situation is one ONLY Georgette Heyer could dream up and make funny.

We also meet Nell's grandfather. Sir Peter is a "downy one" despite having "notice to quit." I can see why Nell is the way she is being raised by him. Their relationship is sweet.

[Maith]

Jay-me (Janet) wrote: "The Earl's sister was described as masterful and there was also his formidable aunt Caroline (presumably one of his father's sisters) so it was possibly a family trait.

Jack's mother was wise enou..."

I doubt Elizabeth would still be there by the time Jack and Nell went to Mildenhurst....all of this book has taken a week or so - I'd say another week for the officialese to be done, the funeral etc. It seems like it's at least a 2 day journey to Jack's home - so you're looking at a full fortnight after Jack left Saltash's home - Elizabeth and her mother had been invited for the first time - would they stay that long?

However I imagine they did know why they were invited - mothers of single women usually do...

[QNPoohBear]

Jack's first meeting with Sir Peter is interesting. Jack reveals his family background for the first time since leaving home. (view spoiler)[It's a little too much of a coincidence that Jack's grandfather and Sir Peter were old carousing buddies! (hide spoiler)]

What are Henry and Choate up to and is Brean involved? If so, what does that mean for Ben? Poor kid!

[Critterbee❇]

QNPoohBear wrote: "Jack's first meeting with Sir Peter is interesting..."

In response to your spoiler about the meeting(view spoiler)[
I think that the landed families all went to school at the same places, so if they were of a similar age, it is very likely that they would have been at the same school together.

They all seem to know each other, or to at least have heard of the family of other aristocracy. Maybe GH thought it necessary to include to show that Jack and Nell were compatible from a lineage aspect.

GH never did write many cross-class relationships, at the moment I can only think of Chirk and Rose. Well, and a marriage from one of her contemporaries... It is certainly more difficult to write about. (hide spoiler)]

[QNPoohBear]

Critterbee
I don't question that they would have known or heard of each other but the frat boy BFF situation is a bit too much of a coincidence. Yes I do think Heyer was showing how compatible the families were but it always amazes me when characters go "name? I went to school with someone of that name/married someone of that name!" Really? How do you remember and keep track of someone you haven't seen or heard from in 20-50 years? I don't remember the names of people I went to school with and my elementary school was so small we only had 1 of each grade. I was in the same class with many of the same kids until I graduated high school. I choose not to stalk them on social media.

[Karlyne]

QNPoohBear wrote: "Critterbee
I don't question that they would have known or heard of each other but the frat boy BFF situation is a bit too much of a coincidence. Yes I do think Heyer was showing how compatible the ..."

Maybe it's more of a personality trait, the remembering of obscure names? I went to dozens of schools, and haven't been in contact with any of those kids since those days, but I still remember dozens of their names, not only high school but even elementary kids, too.

[Critterbee❇]

I still remember friends from my school days, though I do not participate in social media. I went to 9 different schools before uni, and certainly do not remember everyone, though, especially those I was not close with. And I do not communicate with them, other than a close friend from childhood.

Moving around a lot in a US military family, (the military in my experience is very classist) we would not infrequently encounter the same people or the same families, or hear about them from newly met people at different locations. (Oh, do you know Colonel Sutherland is at someplacenow and her son is attending somefancyschool... Major Packley's wife is expecting, General Muckety Muck is retiring next year, etc) I am not sure the population of US military officers vs the population of aristocratic sons in regency England, just relating in my experience how of people corralled into different social groups sometimes seem to all know each other, even placing great value on remembering others of common social standing. Name dropping!

At any rate, it is very convenient for the story.

[Critterbee❇]

Hmm, it might be that we all kept running into each other because of similar MOS!! Oh, that makes so much more sense, hahaha!

[Karlyne]

Here's a funny coincidence involving social media: I commented on a friend's post, and a woman I hadn't seen or heard from in over 20 years recognized my name and responded to it. The connection between the three of us? The first friend I know from the ballet school my daughter teaches at, the first friend and the responder have sisters who are best friends, and the responder and I used to attend the same church. All three of us live over 300 miles apart...

[Karlyne]

Critterbee❇ wrote: "Hmm, it might be that we all kept running into each other because of similar MOS!! Oh, that makes so much more sense, hahaha!"

What's MOS?!?

[Critterbee❇]

MOS is one of hundred or so over-complicated military acronyms, it means your job description.

Military Occupational Specialty

[Critterbee❇]

So, of course you would run into people in similar specialties! Duh, me!

[Karlyne]

Well, I keep running into people whose only claim to my knowing them is that they live in the Pacific NW. Seriously! I was standing on a street corner in Boise one day when a car slammed on the brakes and its owner jumped out and yelled my name. It was a man I hadn't seen since he was a young teenager, when his mom was a friend of mine. His family had moved from the tiny Oregon town we all lived in to Spokane, WA., and we had eventually moved to Boise, Idaho. 600 miles of distance and hundreds of thousands of people and yet...

You know what? I've just convinced myself that truth is stranger than fiction...

[Margaret]

I am on Facebook and a couple of times now have had some stranger pop up on my "People you might know" list with a couple of "mutual friends." Said mutual friends are people I am FB friends with, but who are from widely separated sections of my life, chronologically and geographically (and who I suspect are unlikely to know each other). Considering this can happen across 60+ years of time and thousands of miles of space, I don't find it at all surprising to see it happening within one small social group on one small island. :)

[Abigail]

I think it's also a feature specifically of upper-crust families, to know who all the other upper-crusters are, their genealogies and histories. The aristocracy's own version of tribalism.

I once dated an American aristocrat and the first time his mother met me, she spent a good twenty minutes probing me about my family tree. I tried to keep a straight face because it was obviously important to her.

[Teresa]

Karlyne wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: "Critterbee
I don't question that they would have known or heard of each other but the frat boy BFF situation is a bit too much of a coincidence. Yes I do think Heyer was showing ..."

Me too Karlyne. I remember all most of the kids I went to school with and people I worked with in my first jobs too.

[Ah]

http://randombitsoffascination.com/po...

'Whereas the peerage included about 300 families, the landed gentry encompassed: 540 baronets, 350 knights...'

So Jack and Sir Peter's families were within a circle of about 1,200 families at the top of society, who tended to send their sons to the same schools, to inter-marry and socialise together. The BFF thing is a coincidence, but not a huge stretch to be plausible.

[Teresa]

I agree Ah.

[Paullett]

Slow start! I was only able to begin this weekend. On Chapter 2. Slooow, but I'm here and catching up! Love the insights Elza made. Well said, Elza! Is it just me, or was everyone else rolling in laughter at the opening scene of the tedious party and the harp?

[Critterbee❇]

I do like the part where Jack dissuades the early, early morning, drunken testing of the hunting horn.

[Susan in NC]

Paullett wrote: "Slow start! I was only able to begin this weekend. On Chapter 2. Slooow, but I'm here and catching up! Love the insights Elza made. Well said, Elza! Is it just me, or was everyone else rolling in l..."

Yes! I would’ve headed for the hills like Jack after that gathering (*yawn*)...

[Sheila (in LA)]

I agree, Susan! It was a clever set-up to Jack setting out on his adventure.

This time around (my second read) I'm not minding the slang too much--only one scene that recalled my first time reading it where I just had to keep on going even if I had no idea what the characters were saying. I'm enjoying the mystery quite a lot.

[Carolm]

Ah wrote: "http://randombitsoffascination.com/po...

'Whereas the peerage included about 300 families, the landed gentry encompassed: 540 baronets, 350 knights...'"

Plus, didn't Sir Peter say that they were on the Grand Tour at the same time? (I don't have my book in front of me, so am going by memory.) To me, being on the Grand Tour at the same time implies the equivalent of a big University bus tour, which would increase the odds that they would remember each other, always assuming that they were sober enough to do so.

[Karlyne]

Carolm wrote: "Ah wrote: "http://randombitsoffascination.com/po...

'Whereas the peerage included about 300 families, the landed gentry encompassed: 540 baronets, 350 knights...'..."

They were definitely more acquaintances than friends; even the nickname, Mops and Brooms, seemed to come from way back in the memory. If my memory serves me correctly...😁

[Teresa]

I loved the name Mops and Brooms!!

[QNPoohBear]

Jack has to be the grandson of Mops and Brooms (wonder what THAT story is?!) in order to make him an acceptable husband for Nell. That is more implied later in the book but not a spoiler.

[Karlyne]

QNPoohBear wrote: "Jack has to be the grandson of Mops and Brooms (wonder what THAT story is?!) in order to make him an acceptable husband for Nell. That is more implied later in the book but not a spoiler."

Yes! Where'd he get that name?!? I'm betting Heyer had a story in mind when she gave it to him, by the way, but just didn't include it...


"Well, as I remember, Lord Thingummy dared him to heist our college janitor's tools and ride them all the way to the river. And he did, by George!"

(Apologies: I can't remember what a "janitor" would have been called...)

[Critterbee❇]

Perhaps the reference is based on someone Heyer really knew, or a nickname that she once heard or read during her research.

[Moloch]

At last I've finished the loooooooong book I was reading and I'm ready to start! I will catch up with all your comments later.

[Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂]

Moloch wrote: "At last I've finished the loooooooong book I was reading and I'm ready to start! I will catch up with all your comments later."

Enjoy! :)

[Teresa]

You'll fly through this. It's a great story.

[Critterbee❇]

Moloch wrote: "At last I've finished the loooooooong book I was reading and I'm ready to start! I will catch up with all your comments later."

And it is your first read, too. Enjoy - can't wait to hear your thoughts about it!

[Moloch]

Eh eh, it is rather... refreshing to see John and Nell flirt so openly and happily.

I need help, she describes herself as "large", I don't understand if she means "very tall" or tall and also a bit plus size and curvy. I'd like to picture her correctly.

I like that John has trouble understanding what Ben says half the time, me too!

[Barb in Maryland]

I always pictured Nell as very tall (for a woman) and carrying a weight that matches her height--no skinny beanpole, nor overly hefty. In other words, she is nicely proportioned.

[Jenny]

I agree. Nell is nobly proportioned, I see this as tall with all of her in perfect proportion to everything else. Not heavy, not skinny, just right!

[Critterbee❇]

I agree with Barb and Jenny - Tall and proportionate is how I have always pictured Nell in my mind.

[Andrea AKA Catsos Person]

Pictured Nell as tall with a feminine, womanly figure.

[Susan in NC]

“Junoesque” is the description that comes to mind for me!