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The Toll-gate Group Read January 2019 Chapters 1-9
message 51:
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Teresa
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Jan 02, 2019 04:17PM
Every time I read it I laugh out loud at, 'If the Captain was a tallow-faced twiddle-poop, mounted on a pair of o' cat-sticks I dessay he'd need a snirp like you to pad his calves out, and finify him'. How do you argue with that!!
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Carol ꧁꧂ wrote: "
This is the copy I'm reading this time. A dark haired Jack & a very plain Nell - who also appears to be slightly taller than Jack!I'm loving some of the language..."
Who's the man on the horse? Perhaps that's Jack, and it's ... Babs with Nell.
Over nearly 60 years I have become totally attuned to Heyer's use of cant, both thieves and tonnish. I love the use of it in this book, and the lower-class characters. Ben is my favourite child - far more endearing than Frederica's Felix, or Edmund in Sylvester. Ben is a William Brown, and I'm sure his coterie would call themselves the Outlaws, if it were a few decades later. I will take my thoughts on his future to the Spoilers thread ...
Maith wrote: "John was 6'4" - his mother and sister are considered very tall too - and Hugo in Unknown Ajax is also considered gigantic at 6'4" - that is certainly tall, but I didn't think it fell into gigantic territory so wondering about average male/female heights then"George Washington was, I believe, a shade over 6' and he was considered a giant of a man - literally, as well as metaphorically. And the late 18th-century isn't so far removed from the Regency!
I would agree that Ben is a realistic and likable child. much more so than many (Edmund!)
"For British men, the average height at age 21 rose from 167.05cm (5'5") in 1871-75 to 177.37cm (5'10") in 1971-75."And:
"Napoleon Bonaparte was between 168 and 170 centimeters, or 5’6” – 5’7” in height [...] above the 5’ 5’’ average for a French male in Napoleon’s era."
So it looks as though average height for men in 1815 would have been around 5'5", and 6' or over would have been very unusual.
Sources:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-23896855
http://www.mrodenberg.com/2013/10/24/...
It's been a loooooong time since I've read it, so I'm curious how much of it I'll remember as I go along. I'm excited to get started!What's typically the timeline as we move forward? By when should we have the first 9 chapters read?
No timeline Paullett. You read at your own pace and just dip in and out of the chat as you fancy. Just keep the discussion to the thread.
Teresa wrote: "Every time I read it I laugh out loud at, 'If the Captain was a tallow-faced twiddle-poop, mounted on a pair of o' cat-sticks I dessay he'd need a snirp like you to pad his calves out, and finify h..."Oh, Teresa, I laughed out loud at that also!!! Love it!!
I've just finished the early chapters where Nell's devoted old groom and not-so -old former nurse (now companion) take turns in giving Jack a good look-over, to make sure that he is an acceptable person for their Nell to know. Both are very sharp observers, especially Joseph! And Rose Durward's conversation with Mrs Skeffling (the cleaning lady) is an absolute joy!
Yes I like Rose. She's obviously very possessive of Nell and I love her banter with Joseph.
Paullett wrote: "It's been a loooooong time since I've read it, so I'm curious how much of it I'll remember as I go along. I'm excited to get started!What's typically the timeline as we move forward? By when shou..."
There is no strict timeline, everyone chimes in when they get to certain parts of the book in each thread. Feel free to read at any pace. Often past reads are revived by someone currently reading the book, which is fun and often makes me want to do a quick re-read of that title!
Avoiding spoilers is more important. There is always a spoiler thread to post in if you have finished the book; the first two threads are there for those first-time readers, or those who want to avoid happening upon a spoiler while they re-read. I usually keep to the spoiler threads so I don't have to worry about spoiling a read for others.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "I've just finished the early chapters where Nell's devoted old groom and not-so -old former nurse (now companion) take turns in giving Jack a good look-over, to make sure that he is an acceptable p..."I love that evidence of how loved Nell is by those who really know her!
Thanks for the information about heights folks who commented. Sorry I'm not referencing all those who did - am trying out GR on the ipad (not app, logging in on Safari) but it's not letting me quote reply :(Interesting that the average height for men, including nobility/gentry (who might expect to be better fed and in better health) was so low. Now I'm wondering about Avon and Dominic's heights - I don't think it's ever stated exactly how tall they are, just that they are much taller than their contemporaries.
I don't know how many times I have read this one, as it is one of my favourites. I am reading the Harlequin edition.
This is my first read of this book and I am loving it (well the first 4 chapters anyway!)
This is one of my favorites as well. Not quite as good as “Venetia” and “A Civil Contract” but still way up there in the list. I’ve read this book many times and it’s always a pleasure.Looking forward to chatting with everyone.😊💕
Awesome! Sometimes I finish a book in a day, and other times it takes me a whole month to plod through, depending on how much chaos is going on in life. I'm starting it this weekend! Yea! Loving all of the positive comments about the first few chapters. This is going to be such a wonderful read!
I really enjoyed it this time, I do every time - the first several years I owned it, I’d try to start over and over, but that first chapter, and then the switch in gears, just threw me and I’d give it up for something else- glad I finally plowed through!
I'm only up to chapter 6. I'd forgotten how much I love Captain Staple!!
Three cheers for Captain Staple!! Definitely one of my favorite Heyer heroes.
Jack goes shopping for clothes more suited to his new role. What a hoot!Bet he looked dashing in his new shirts! Also bet his loyal valet would have suffered heart failure to see Jack thus attired!
And he probably went into a swoon when he saw the state of Jack's boots:-)
Teresa wrote: "And he probably went into a swoon when he saw the state of Jack's boots:-)"Yes, I got the distinct impression Jack would come away with more respect for his valet’s skill with boots...
Not to mention removing his horse, Beau’s, hairs from his coat!
Could you imagine putting up with a man that pernikity!!
All the work Jack has to do to take care of his fancy clothes! It made me giggle to read the trouble he had trying to remove the horse hair from his coat! Even during the campaigns on the continent, he had someone to take care of his clothes. Adventurous Jack needs this crazy jaunt after the boredom of peace-time England.
Teresa wrote: "Every time I read it I laugh out loud at, 'If the Captain was a tallow-faced twiddle-poop, mounted on a pair of o' cat-sticks I dessay he'd need a snirp like you to pad his calves out, and finify h..."This is one of Heyer's best lines ever. Don't know about y'all, but there are several people in my life who come to mind as being a "tallow-faced twiddle-poop." I think that needs to be added to my vocabulary.
I think I read this last for the previous Group Read, so not that long ago. And then, as now, on my tablet. But I don't mind revisiting. I agree there's a lot of information thrown at you in that first chapter, but it certainly sets the scene of what Jack wanted to get away from, and why.
Absolutely loved the major male-bonding scenes that make up the second half of chapter 9. Sir Peter may be frail in body but he is still mentally sharp. It's a shame that we see him hale and hearty only in the reminiscences of Nell and others. He had undoubtedly been a force to reckon with.
I agree, Barb. I like the respect they have for each other.
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Absolutely loved the major male-bonding scenes that make up the second half of chapter 9. Sir Peter may be frail in body but he is still mentally sharp. It's a shame that we see him hale and hearty..."Yes, that was a very satisfying scene, wasn’t it? But sad, too, seeing how far Sir Peter’s health has declined.
Jumping in late here (7 days!), but on the fourth page I just had to chortle: "Lady Charlotte Caine, the Earl's betrothed, had been so much struck by the splendid proportions of the Staples that she had been moved to utter a spontaneous remark." Good thing I wasn't drinking the cup of coffee I'm going after in a moment...
This one has some really funny moments Karlyne.
Yes, a fun way to kick off the reading year!
That’s priceless, Karlyne! I completely glossed right past that.
Karlyne wrote: "Jumping in late here (7 days!), but on the fourth page I just had to chortle: "Lady Charlotte Caine, the Earl's betrothed, had been so much struck by the splendid proportions of the Staples that sh..."that was some excellent snark on Heyer's part, the Lady Charlotte is dull enough to suit the Earl.
OK, liking this one better than I remembered - mostly because I love Rose and Chirk so much. Their story must be told! : )
I agree Elliot. Would have loved to know more about them.
I just realized this was a spoiler, so moving it to the other thread! that's where I though I was posting, sorry.
Rosina wrote: "Who's the man on the horse? Perhaps that's Jack, and it's ... Babs with Nell.."
Missed this. I thought it was Nate.
I was thinking this morning about the use of language and how it tells one's social status. And, mostly, how we don't want to admit that it does (because we're not supposed to have social classes). However, poor grammar or crazy slang tends to make us think, almost immediately, "uneducated" and "poverty" and even "blue collar". But, it's such a weird thing! My parents were what I would call "grammatically correct" in both letter writing and in their speech. I think I am, too, but both my brother and sister are not, although we shared the same parents, schools, environments. As I said, "weird"...
Karlyne wrote: "I was thinking this morning about the use of language and how it tells one's social status. And, mostly, how we don't want to admit that it does (because we're not supposed to have social classes)...."Very true, and interesting point!
Karlyne wrote: "I was thinking this morning about the use of language and how it tells one's social status. And, mostly, how we don't want to admit that it does (because we're not supposed to have social classes)...."The thing is - deliberate use of ungrammatical expressions indicates just the opposite - that you are well educated enough to play around with the language - and this is true in any language. And it's generally those who are confident of their skills in a language (or of their social positions) who feel free to use slang or deliberately wrong usage for fun.
The hardcover I am reading doesn't have a cover anymore. It is dated 1954 G.P. Putnam and Sons
Chapter 1 needs a family tree. I like the contrast between cagey, mischievous Jack and his stuffy cousin. His sister is an obnoxious tattle-tale who doesn't know how to mind her own business. It sets the stage for Jack's character so we know just what kind of man he is.
I'm on Ch. 4. Not much happening so far except Jack has met Nell and her groom has come to have a chat and smoke with Jack.
As for slang 1811 Dictionary in the Vulgar Tongue should help
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/5402
TWIDDLE POOP. An effeminate looking fellow.
CAT STICKS. Thin legs, compared to sticks with which boys play at cat. See TRAPSTICKS.
QNPoohBear wrote: "The hardcover I am reading doesn't have a cover anymore. It is dated 1954 G.P. Putnam and Sons Chapter 1 needs a family tree. I like the contrast between cagey, ..."
What did you think of Jack's Mama?
How did Jack's sister end up the way she is with a Mother like Jack's?
"How did Jack's sister end up the way she is with a Mother like Jack's? "Good question! Mrs. Staple seems lovely, in spite of inviting a boring, eligible female over for her son to meet. He's too smart to fall for that. Sister Fanny must be the eldest and feel responsible for her brother somehow. Either that or her husband is a prig and she adopted his views? The flirtatious teenage cousin sounds more like she could be Jack's sister. They share a sense of humor which his sister sadly lacks.
The Earl's sister was described as masterful and there was also his formidable aunt Caroline (presumably one of his father's sisters) so it was possibly a family trait.Jack's mother was wise enough not to let Jack find out that she had invited a prospective bride to visit as she said " had I obliged him to come home to meet Elizabeth I am persuaded he would have taken her in aversion from the outset" (view spoiler)
Maith wrote: "Karlyne wrote: "I was thinking this morning about the use of language and how it tells one's social status. And, mostly, how we don't want to admit that it does (because we're not supposed to have ..."That is, of course, often true, but most certainly not in my family's case.
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