Phantastes - Background, Context and Other Discussions

[David]

This topic is for discussing the author, the book (as opposed to the story which is discussed in the chapter discussions), and other topics related to Phantastes.

Warning: some spoilers may be found on the wikipedia entry for the book. Phantastes: A Faerie Romance for Men and Women is a fantasy novel by Scottish writer George MacDonald, first published in London in 1858. . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantastes

The Golden Key is the premier on-line resource for all things related to the Victorian Novelist, Poet and Christian Fantasy writer George MacDonald (1824-1905) and home to the George MacDonald Society and Wingfold Email List.
http://www.george-macdonald.com/index...

Wikipedia article on Fairies in the 1920's. A surprising proponent of the belief that fairies were real was none other than Sir Arthur Conan Doyle of Sherlock Holmes fame.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cotting...

[David]

I am curious about the subtitle, A Faerie Romance for Men and Women. Was the subtitle supposed to differentiate it from a children's book? As we read, it will be interesting to discuss whether this novel is appropriate for children or not and why.

[Ian]

Way back in 2004, I reviewed "Phantastes" on Amazon (I never got around to reviewing his other fantasy novel for adults, "Lilith.")

I tried hard to avoid spoilers, so it is a little vague in places. It is now deeply buried: if you are curious about what I had to say almost fifteen years ago, see https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-re...

(As we read this, I'll try to figure out if my view of "Phantases" has changed. If so, I may go back and edit it accordingly, assuming that I remember.)

[Rex]

As before, I strongly encourage those on the fence about reading MacDonald to give his short fairy-tale The Golden Key a try.

David wrote: "I am curious about the subtitle, A Faerie Romance for Men and Women."

George MacDonald published Phantastes at a relatively young age (34) in 1858, seven years after John Ruskin published his bestselling The King of the Golden River. By comparison, the Brothers Grimm collection was published in English the year before MacDonald was born, in 1823. The Hans Christian Andersen stories did not appear in English until 1846. For most British people of the time, "fairy-tales" especially referred to the moralistic fables of Perrault and his imitators, aimed at children.

MacDonald, however, adopted the mature and literary mode of the fairy-tales of German Romantics such as Fouque, Tieck, and Hoffmann. Ruskin's book was also influenced by the Germans, but it affected a childish tone and came to a straightforward moral conclusion, factors absent in Phantastes. So at least some scholars regard Phantastes as the first fantasy novel written for adults.

[Rex]

Ian wrote: "Way back in 2004, I reviewed "Phantastes" on Amazon (I never got around to reviewing his other fantasy novel for adults, "Lilith.")"

If you enjoy this second go-round of Phantastes, I would recommend trying Lilith. It's a significantly more mature work, thematically and theologically, and the usual MacDonald sentimentality is balanced out somewhat by a prevailing darkness of tone and imagery.

[Ian]

Rex wrote: "If you enjoy this second go-round of Phantastes, I ..."

I may have given the misleading impression that "Phantastes" was the limit of my knowledge of MacDonald, and that I hadn't re-read it. (It is true that I haven't really tried his realistic novels of life in Scotland, although I probably should: I have some blind spots when it comes to Victorian fiction.)

Actually, this will be my third or fourth round with "Phantastes": once when the Ballantine edition appeared (in April 1970), a second, and maybe a third, time from a complete text, probably in the late 1970s or early 1980s, and another time, rather quickly, before posting the review (And I probably should have spent more time with it then, although, given that I was avoiding spoilers, I'm not sure what else I would have found to say about it.)

I *will* have to re-read it again before trying to discuss it -- I retain only incidents and some vague impressions.

The same would be true for "Lilith," (Ballantine, September 1969), with a couple of re-readings later -- like "Phantastes," I don't recall when, but probably when I got the Eerdmans omnibus, whenever that was. I didn't get around to it in 2004, when I had the idea of reviewing a lot more of MacDonald's fantasy and fairy tales, but ran out of energy. I made a stab at it a few years ago, but was distracted by other events in my life, and never went back to it.

Ballantine also printed a MacDonald collection, also edited by Carter, "Evenor," in November 1972, containing "The Wise Woman," "The Carasoyn," and "The Golden Key," which, except for "The Golden Key," I'm not sure if I ever re-read: and that elsewhere. There were two others in Lin Carter anthologies for the Ballantine series. One, "The Woman in the Mirror," was extracted from "Phantastes." (Carter caught some flack for that decision to duplicate material), for "Great Short Novels of Adult Fantasy, Volume II" (March 1973). The other, which I found very impressive, and read a couple of times, at least, was "The Romance of Photogen and Nycteris" (also as "The Day Boy and the Night Girl") in "New Worlds for Old" (September 1971).

Also, the two "Curdie" books, "At the Back of the Northwind," "The Light Princess," and other stories aimed more at children, the names of some which don't come to mind immediately. I once had a big Eerdmans anthology of "Gifts of the Child Christ: Fairy Tales and Stories for the Childlike" (two volumes, June 1972) and can't remember how much of it I read, or the individual titles, at this remove.
https://www.amazon.com/Gifts-Christ-S...

I passed on the Penguin "Complete Fairy Tales" collection (1999), as duplicating what I then still owned.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/014...

[Rex]

You've possibly read more MacDonald than I have, then. Have you sampled his German influences--Fouque, Tieck, and Hoffmann? I've only read a couple of Fouque's novels (and of course Novalis), but I'm eager to investigate more.

[Ian]

Rex wrote: "Have you sampled his German influences--Fouque, Tieck, and Hoffmann? I've only read a couple of Fouque's novels (and of course Novalis), but I..."

Yes, but, like most of my reading of MacDonald, it was mostly a long time ago, and I probably haven't retained all that much.

I recall the Dover Books collection of nineteenth-century translations of Hoffmann, which I am certain I read, but probably not more recent translations. I collected some free or cheap Kindle editions to re-read them, but still haven't got around to more than a couple of stories.

Also some Fouque, as a student at UCLA in the 1970s, using its massive library, and, much more recently, some Kindle and other digital editions of Novalis, from which I haven't retained much. No Tieck, so far as I can recall.

[Kerstin]

There is a documentary from last year, The Fantasy Makers, that features George MacDonald, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien and others and how their writings created the fantasy genre. They go to the roots of the genre, which is found in medieval poems such as Beowulf, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, we are just finishing up, etc. Here I want to insert a big shout out to our moderating team for choosing the perfect segueway for our interim read!

I know the documentary is available on Amazon Prime, and perhaps Netflix (I didn't check). It is very good. I am not big into fantasy, but this gave me a new appreciation for the genre, and I will definitely check out some of the prominent titles.

Here is a link to the trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV7sc...

[Kyle]

I've never actually finished anything by MacDonald (my last foray into MacDonaldland was a failed attempt at reading/finishing The Princess and the Goblin).
Looking forward to this early 2019 read!

[David]

Tree Lore
Here is just one site I found with all of the trees mentioned so far and the various lore that surrounds them. Some descriptions seem to fit Phantastes, some seem to fit in unexpected ways, and others don't seem to fit at all. I am sure there are other more scholarly endeavors, similar to a recent discussion of Yew trees in cemeteries. If someone cares to post any tree info here that may help with the story it can go here so we don't loose site of the chapters for the trees. :)

Ash: http://www.thegoddesstree.com/trees/A...
Alder: http://www.thegoddesstree.com/trees/A...
Beech: http://www.thegoddesstree.com/trees/B...
Elm: http://www.thegoddesstree.com/trees/E...
Oak: http://www.thegoddesstree.com/trees/O...

[Kyle]

Silly question (and it may be answered somewhere else in this discussion). Just how does one pronounce the title "Phantastes"?

[Ian]

I haven't been around MacDonald fans enough to note how *they* prefer to pronounce it.

Among fantasy fans on the West Coast in the early 1970s, when Ballantine had put the book into circulation for their attention, I think it was "fantast-" (as in "fantastic") plus -eez (like "ease"). But my memory may be favoring my own preferences, and it did not get a lot of discussion that I remember, at least in the circles in which I was then active.

It is, however, approximately the pronunciation given at https://forvo.com/word/phantastes/

There may be some coverage of this somewhere on the George MacDonald Society website, http://www.george-macdonald.com/macdo... ), which has a lot of articles under the heading Resources e.g. on MacDonald and Novalis, http://www.george-macdonald.com/artic...
But nothing I can see about a guide to pronouncing anything in MacDonald's fiction (which would also be helpful with some of his realistic ("mainstream" to science fiction and fantasy fans) novels set in Scotland).

And see also http://www.george-macdonald.com/

The ph/f switch goes back a long time, originally depending on whether one was following a Greek or a Latin model, but some differentiated meanings have developed. Good dictionaries note some of the variants, and where they are likely to be found (e.g., in psychological literature).

By the way, judging from some of the websites I searched, some people just skip the second "t" and call it "Fantasies," a practice I would think would be confusing when discussing his other fantasy writing.....

[Rex]

I haven't yet read this article on the "mirror" structure of Phantastes, but I came across it this evening, and it looks fascinating: https://www.snc.edu/northwind/documen...

[Kerstin]

Sometimes things make more sense when expressed in one's own native language :)

In George MacDonald's essay, The Fantastic Imagination he begins with this sentence:

"That we have in English no word corresponding to the German Märchen, drives us to use the word Fairytale, regardless of the fact that the tale may have nothing to do with any sort of fairy."

Not until I read these words did Fairy Land make sense to me. It isn't just a fanciful realm of MacDonald's imagination, a fantasy I am trying to decipher, but we are in Märchen-Land. It was right in front of me and I didn't see it...

[David]

Kerstin wrote: " It isn't just a fanciful realm of MacDonald's imagination, a fantasy I am trying to decipher, but we are in Märchen-Land."

I don't quite follow. What of Anodos' admission when talking with the maiden of the Beech tree:

and for my part, I had often longed for Fairy Land, as she now longed for the world of men.

There seem to be two different locations. If we are in Märchen-Land, then what and were is the world of men? And why would the maiden of the Beech tree want to go to the world of men?

The idea seems to involve a different view between the terms real and imagined.

[Kerstin]

David wrote: "Kerstin wrote: " It isn't just a fanciful realm of MacDonald's imagination, a fantasy I am trying to decipher, but we are in Märchen-Land."

I don't quite follow. What of Anodos' admission when tal..."

Sorry to confuse you, David! That was not my intention. I may have expressed myself poorly.
It has to do with the dynamics of operating in a foreign language. Sometimes words just don't resonate the same way as they would in your native tongue, even though you are essentially talking the same thing.

[Ashley]

Rex wrote: "I haven't yet read this article on the "mirror" structure of Phantastes, but I came across it this evening, and it looks fascinating: https://www.snc.edu/northwind/documen......"

I got a lot out of this article, Rex. Thanks for sharing!

[Susan]

This Atlantic article has some interesting ideas about reading fantasies. I’m thinking MacDonald like C. S. Lewis was not necessarily interested in consistency in his imaginary fairy land: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertain...